ZennExile said:Krixus said:Have you actually played a game that didn't have this crap? How about just going out into the world and making of it what you can instead of being told what to do?
You probably cannot name an MMORPG I have less than 500 hours in.
And the definitions of daily here, require a foundation of treadmill mechanics being the CORE AND ONLY progression because it was a filler mechanic applied to help organize the solo player, into a shared routine with other solo players.
That's not even remotely close to the definition of daily here.
I have no problems with daily's. There are many OCD players out there that find comfort in them.
That being said, dailies should never be a path to anything amazing, unique and uber. Only cosmetic or aesthetic.
Most gamers that have only played modern MMOs think that playing a grind/RNG simulator (AA, BDO, anything from Korea basically, etc.) should give them best in class gear.
Best in class gear should only come as a reward for skill. Not a reward because you are 16 and can play 20 hours a day and kill 50,000 grass snakes not missing a single day for a month.
The modern fake MMOs that are simply grinding simulators make a sad statement about what MMOs have become.
Hopefully Pantheon will actually NOT end up as another grind/rng simulator. Although I am sure the lure of big cash is strong.
The last, true, skill-based MMO was Vanguard, before KDQ was introduced and grinding for best in class gear infected Vanguard.
I feel very negatively about daily content.
because it feels like a "job" and not a game.
i do like public events, eventhough they become stale, i think public events are good solution to make the zone feel more alive.
I want a rich world, i actually loved the GW2 world, if only it had a robust tank/healer/CC role system and the world mobs were actually hard.
At this point, before Kilsin shows up and closes this thread lest it get worse, i'd like to ask everyone to ignore him and just continue with the general conversation.
We have some good ideas and a wealth of commentary on the topic. Once we get into beta if VR comes asking us for feedback or to test this type of content I think we should have plenty to share. We need to really get an idea of what questing entails and how the world works. Until we see what systems are in place and how repeatable tasks can be incorperated into the world we can't really move forward with any real detailed idea building. Too much at this point is just speculation on what can be done based on what we are imagining the game will be.
It seems pretty well established that most people do not want to see "WoW-ish" type tasks, but wouldn;t mind seeing some other type of repeatable tasks that were non-progression based and are still attractive to complete. Event oriented tasks would be fun, though I think events shouldn't be so common place. Wouldn't they lose their "specialness" if they happened weekly or monthly? Random GM driving things are cool but again, having dailies setup around these implies they will last for days or weeks. Again I feel this would make them less special. I loved EQs spontanious GM events much, much more.
I feel like it is groundhog day in this thread. Didn't we just all finish mostly agreeing on this subject yesterday?
Fo restate what I said yesterday with less words:
"Dailies" as they are commonly perceived (based on other games) are bad and we should not go down that road.
"Tasks" that can help give guidance to players who need it, and possibly start an adventure, are ok, as long as they and their rewards are implemented in moderation.
To wit: The focus should be on getting people moving and giving them something to so in order to promote social interactions. Not to give them a grind mechanism for currency or faction.
Example: In 1999 I knew that I could turn in crushbone belts repeatedly for some coins. To obtain those, I had to go to orc hill, or even into crushbone itself. Those places required me to group, or I would quickly die at the hands of laughing orcs and then have to try to sneak back to get my corpse.
The quest just served as a catalyst for the greater adventure.
I am 100% ok with pantheon doing that kind of thing. I am NOT ok with dailies the way that WoW or any other recent game does them, because they don't promote interaction, and they are all about the rewards.
I think most people here in this thread feel similarly based on what you have all written, so I am not sure where all the vitriol is coming from.
ok maybe that wasn't less words than yesterday.
sent from phone keyboard, sorry for typos.
Nephele said:I feel like it is groundhog day in this thread. Didn't we just all finish mostly agreeing on this subject yesterday?
Fo restate what I said yesterday with less words:
"Dailies" as they are commonly perceived (based on other games) are bad and we should not go down that road.
"Tasks" that can help give guidance to players who need it, and possibly start an adventure, are ok, as long as they and their rewards are implemented in moderation.
To wit: The focus should be on getting people moving and giving them something to so in order to promote social interactions. Not to give them a grind mechanism for currency or faction.
Example: In 1999 I knew that I could turn in crushbone belts repeatedly for some coins. To obtain those, I had to go to orc hill, or even into crushbone itself. Those places required me to group, or I would quickly die at the hands of laughing orcs and then have to try to sneak back to get my corpse.
The quest just served as a catalyst for the greater adventure.
I am 100% ok with pantheon doing that kind of thing. I am NOT ok with dailies the way that WoW or any other recent game does them, because they don't promote interaction, and they are all about the rewards.
I think most people here in this thread feel similarly based on what you have all written, so I am not sure where all the vitriol is coming from.
ok maybe that wasn't less words than yesterday.
sent from phone keyboard, sorry for typos.
100% agree. Social interaction is the main point of Pantheon. I believe thats why most of us want to keep these solo-centric features far, far away.
Your Crushbone example is a perfect example too. A repeatable quest that did not provide meaning advancement in progression (once they fixed the xp gained) and guided people to the same area to find each other and group. PERFECT example of a quest that we'd love to see in Pantheon.
Another being the bat wing quests in the various caster guilds. These netted you a low level beginner's spell. These spells cost a silver or so, not much in the way of a reward but it was nice and helped beginners along.
The vast majority of simple quests (and some not so simple quests) in EQ were basically just hooks to get people into group areas. Something the industry sadly moved away from after WoW and EQ2 both decided that questing should be the primary progression method.
I think the right answer for progression is to insure that nothing is too repetitive and that it is all meaningful. So I am of the opinion that quest should lead you to adventures, expeditions, and dungeon crawls. The next experience and loot should co.e not from the quest itself, nor from killing the same things over and over, but from actually completing the adventure you embarked on.
Another EQ example. There was a random gnoll in NK that dropped a jeweled skull which opened a quest. The quest involved finding the eyes of the skull, one of which was at the bottom of splitpaw. At level, splitpaw was tough enough to get into that we used to actually raid it with three groups at a time just so we could break spawns and get down to the deeper parts of the dungeon. Anyway, finishing the jeweled skull took was an adventure in itself and when it was done you had a pile of experience, loot from along the way, AND the nice caster item from the finished skull itself. I feel like that is the sort of experience that pantheon quests of any size should be trying to create.
Mod Edit: Removed quoted name as posts have been removed.
Nephele said:The vast majority of simple quests (and some not so simple quests) in EQ were basically just hooks to get people into group areas. Something the industry sadly moved away from after WoW and EQ2 both decided that questing should be the primary progression method.
I think the right answer for progression is to insure that nothing is too repetitive and that it is all meaningful. So I am of the opinion that quest should lead you to adventures, expeditions, and dungeon crawls. The next experience and loot should co.e not from the quest itself, nor from killing the same things over and over, but from actually completing the adventure you embarked on.
Another EQ example. There was a random gnoll in NK that dropped a jeweled skull which opened a quest. The quest involved finding the eyes of the skull, one of which was at the bottom of splitpaw. At level, splitpaw was tough enough to get into that we used to actually raid it with three groups at a time just so we could break spawns and get down to the deeper parts of the dungeon. Anyway, finishing the jeweled skull took was an adventure in itself and when it was done you had a pile of experience, loot from along the way, AND the nice caster item from the finished skull itself. I feel like that is the sort of experience that pantheon quests of any size should be trying to create.
Absoluely!
This is how quests should work. 100%.
Repetative tasks are as boring as can get. EQ was repeatative as hell for the most part. Killing the same spawn over and over for hours wasn't fun. The reason hunting in EQ WAS fun, inspite of how repeatative it was, was that you were in a group of like minded people chatting the entire time. THAT was the fun part. Without that, EQ would have been boring as all hell. The gameplay wasn't what kept people playing. It was the community and the world. How a simple randomly dropped skull could launch you into an impromptu raid with a bunch of other people to get into a non-raid focused zone. You went on an adventure with people. The gameplay was functional at best, but thats all it needed to be.
I cannot say the same for games like WoW, Rift, Wildstar, and the dozens other modern mmos I have played since EQ. Hopefully Pantheon brings this type of thing back and there will be no need to even entertain artificial grinds like daily quests and such.
One more quest/content example before I start the boring afternoon meetings at work.
In Vanguard there was an area in Qalia with several dungeons and some outdoor content, all tied together by a set of quests. The last and most complex dungeon that you visited was called Karrus Hakrel, and had multiple bosses and events and even a raid encounter at the bottom that you could trigger.
The quests began outside in a shrine and were really just hooks to get you started on the story of the area and the race that inhabited it. If you followed the quest line all the way through, it led to some really interesting more about that part of the world. The rewards were mostly from the fights along the way though.
Sadly, when I was playing vanguard no one did these quests or the dungeons and encounters, because other areas of the same level gave faster experience, and because some of the quests involved collecting rare drop items which made them very grindy. The storytelling was masterful, the content compelling, but the implementation not so much.
I managed to convince my guild to do the entire quest series with me and posted a super detailed write up on the vg forums afterwards, in the hopes of getting more players to try it and of getting the devs to make it flow better so people would see this content. They hadn't really done that by the time I left the game, sadly. But to this day I still remember those quests and the adventure we had. All because a silly nephele person found an area no one went to and said "what's the story of this place?"
Anyway I wanted to bring this kind of thing up as another example of the role I feel quests' should play. Without those quests to point me to the larger story going on in the area, I don't think I would have ever even thought to explore karrus hakrel in Telon. I don't think the old vg forums survived but if I can find that writeup I did archived anywhere I will share the link for those who might be interested :)
Ok, thread cleaned up...that was ridiculous folks, two and a half pages of arguing and derailing over nothing really. Unfortunately, some good posts had to be removed for quoting and multi-quoting removed posts or forum breaches, I managed to save a couple by editing little bits out but that was a lot of unnecessary work to keep a thread open, in future with that amount of moderating needs it will either be closed or just removed entirely.
Please report posts instead of quoting and arguing with them in future as I am able to go straight to the post and remove it via reports but if people quote it, I have to remove every post thereafter to clean the thread up.
Final warning to keep on topic and respect the guidelines and each other and to remind you that you will never win an argument against someone else's opinion, either agree to disagree or just ignore them and walk away, report the post if it breaches any guidelines and let me deal with it/them please, otherwise it just creates way too much work for something so silly!
You're lucky I love you guys or there would be many more nuked threads around here! ;)
I think the limit of daily type quest could be short little fetch/solo quest that players can grab a few of and do, but there would only be a few that might last an hour. Good for players that just want to log in and do something but don't have time to commit. Obviously these "quest" would be minor and have little reward, but at least would be some type of task to do if you just want a little help keeping busy in your short play session.
Wow, didn't think there would be this many replies when i originally posted the topic. I have just been liking the direction the game is going and loving the progress being made so far with visuals and stuff and this was/is one of the main things I hate about modern MMOs. Seems liek a ton of people have a dislike of required daily type of content.
With that said, one thing i thought of is based of of the "zones" idea. I am a very spontaneous type of person, focused on what i want to do, but once i have arrived at a certain point i want to do somethign else and focus on that. Now I am basing this on the targeted type of player being a someon that may play 3-6 hours a day on average for 4-6 days a week. Give or take a bit.
What if you could go to the different zones and enjoy the content and explore for a few days one week, then mover on to another zone or if you completed a certaina mount of content in a certain amount of time then you could do x, y, or z sppecial zones. Kind of like gaining reputaion in that area so the npc of different levels give you better or more unique types of quests later down the road as you gain favor with them. Which means it would cater to the player that likes to grind and the casual player. The grinder could stay in the area, do all the content till they have done most of everything, move to the next zone. The more casual/sporadic do random things all the time person can skip arounbd and gain rep in various zones at a slower pace, but several at a time.
They could add in special quest lines or abilities for having a certain amount of rep in multiple areas. Maybe some players liek to be a darker/evil avatar type of player so they spend mroe time in dark zones and the "good" hearted player would spend mroe time in the lighter zones.
This could in turn make a compelling argument for procedurally generated mobs and quests based on the amount of players in the area. Maybe John Bob is out solo adventuring and come across some tiny cool object or mob tucked away in the corner of some zone somewhere and messes with it and recieves a quest. He tells 2 of his friends about it and they check it out and they each tell 2 of thier freinds, so on and so forth till half the game population is in the same zone base on the cool content they heard about. This kicks off some random mass event nobody knew about and a huge mob/boss battle or event happens once enough players are there. John Bob gets some special tital/itme for beig the one to discover the whole ordeal, or maybe gets his name on a statue in the middle of the main town in the zone to forever immortalize his contribution to the event.
Long post, put I think it was needed to say what i thoguht up. You can see hwo it would definitely provide a nice alternative to daily content, keep things interesting, and give out some unique adventures to players. Of course this would all depend on the dev teams to constantly be adding content in they didnt tell us about and leave it up to the players to find. Not everything needs to be in patch notes. The dev team would also have to keep up with creating unique quests, dungeons, and events/experiences, as well as rewards for this to work and keep it secret from players.
I didn't like dailies as in repeatable quests as it gave the world a static feel where all your progress was wiped and resets every day.
I would be in favor of daily quests if it relates to providing daily needs/resources that make sense (NPCs need food every day for example) . Things that pose a constant threat like extreme weather conditions can give purpose to daily quests that make sense. Not that every day should have extreme weather conditions though.
bigdogchris said:I think the limit of daily type quest could be short little fetch/solo quest that players can grab a few of and do, but there would only be a few that might last an hour. Good for players that just want to log in and do something but don't have time to commit. Obviously these "quest" would be minor and have little reward, but at least would be some type of task to do if you just want a little help keeping busy in your short play session.
There are almost always 100's of things that players can do in a relatively short time and solo, if that's all the time they have avaiable to play on a given day. Daily quests just remove the oppurtunity for a player to become more knowledgable and creative in finding those things. It removes a requirement for the player to think. And I don't support any mechanic that does this.
You can gather resources for sale or crafting.
You can read books in the libraries looking for hints at questlines.
You can shop for gear replacements.
You can go complete some lower level quests that you hadnt gotten around to.
You can travel to position yourself for maximum use of your time the next time you log in that you anticipate having more contiguous playtime.
You can work on crafting skill.
You can see if anyone has quest components for sale.
You can chat with others of your class about quests that could be helpful to you, or places to acquire items that are tailored to your playstyle.
I personally spend a lot of nights like that exploring and expirimenting to find places I can solo and get xp/cash/items that allow for some limited progress in the times that I know I won't have time to get a group. So that when time doesn't allow for other options, I have a list of places I can go and still be productive.
It would please me greatly if there was a quest I stumbled over by accident or perhaps through the perception skill in my travels. The jewelled skull one sounds intriguing, and if I could manage to coax my guild mates into completing it with me, all the better. Cameraderie...sense of accomplishment, new areas explored, and mystery in regards to the jewelled skull, solved. :)
Cana
CanadinaXegony said:It would please me greatly if there was a quest I stumbled over by accident or perhaps through the perception skill in my travels. The jewelled skull one sounds intriguing, and if I could manage to coax my guild mates into completing it with me, all the better. Cameraderie...sense of accomplishment, new areas explored, and mystery in regards to the jewelled skull, solved. :)
Cana
Agreed. But I bet you don't want to do it once a day for a month to get to Exalted with Whosit.
I think I got culled for quoting a post. My previous post was something like this.
I think that most people turn to daily quests as a crutch for a sense of accomplishment. Using Lego as an exmaple - many humans prefer following instructions rather than free-building; that's why the kit comes with them rather than just the box picture. This is likely because they do not want to go through the effort of defining their own goals in the game's content or that they don't find the fullfillment of those self-goals satisfying. This is the main problem with creating lots of excellent content but with little hand-holding. Many people may not be motivated enough to search it out and define what to do themselves. There needs to be sufficient guidance, but not so much as to turn the game into a job. I'm more for a self-defined goals heavy game because Pantheon is supposed to be challenging - not just in content, but also in preconceived playstyles.
Someone called my post glorious and expanded on this self-defined goals effort threshold, but I'm assuming it was culled also.
Land said:I think that most people turn to daily quests as a crutch for a sense of accomplishment. Using Lego as an exmaple - many humans prefer following instructions rather than free-building; that's why the kit comes with them rather than just the box picture. This is likely because they do not want to go through the effort of defining their own goals in the game's content or that they don't find the fullfillment of those self-goals satisfying. This is the main problem with creating lots of excellent content but with little hand-holding. Many people may not be motivated enough to search it out and define what to do themselves. There needs to be sufficient guidance, but not so much as to turn the game into a job. I'm more for a self-defined goals heavy game because Pantheon is supposed to be challenging - not just in content, but also in preconceived playstyles.
There are some days when I get done at work, and get home, and I am absolutely braindead from the hours and hours of reports, and presentations, and meetings, and conference calls, and whatnot that somehow constitute my RL job every day. All I want to do on these nights is do something low-stress, that doesn't require a lot of thought, but I still want to log into whatever MMO I'm playing and at least see my friends. For me, on these nights, I usually log in to a game and craft or harvest or something, but I can see the appeal of having short, easy-to-stop-and-start adventuring goals as well.
I'll go a step further and say I think everyone has nights like that. Times when we really don't have the mental capacity or willpower to self direct, but still want to log in to the awesome world that's our hobby. Some folks maybe have it happen more than others, and some folks are more predisposed to it happening than others, but I think there's a danger in assuming that people are in the same mental state every time they play. Even the most hardcore raider has days when they just want to log in and go fishing, or something that they can do on their own. Likewise, even the most stressed-out person is going to sometimes have days when they really do want something they can sink their teeth into.
I think all of us want content that's meaningful, and don't want to feel forced into repettive things that make the game feel like a job. If we're logging in every night and doing the same set of things because it's the "most efficient way" to accomplish some goal, rather than because it's fun - that's a problem. However, I think we all also need small things to help us fill in the gaps - for those nights when we're braindead from work or life, or for those times when we just need something to get us started. Like I said in some of my posts above - a catalyst for adventures. :)
Land said:I think I got culled for quoting a post. My previous post was something like this.
I think that most people turn to daily quests as a crutch for a sense of accomplishment. Using Lego as an exmaple - many humans prefer following instructions rather than free-building; that's why the kit comes with them rather than just the box picture. This is likely because they do not want to go through the effort of defining their own goals in the game's content or that they don't find the fullfillment of those self-goals satisfying. This is the main problem with creating lots of excellent content but with little hand-holding. Many people may not be motivated enough to search it out and define what to do themselves. There needs to be sufficient guidance, but not so much as to turn the game into a job. I'm more for a self-defined goals heavy game because Pantheon is supposed to be challenging - not just in content, but also in preconceived playstyles.
Someone called my post glorious and expanded on this self-defined goals effort threshold, but I'm assuming it was culled also.
This may be true, but the point VR has been driving home is that Pantheon will not have any of that hand holding. It is a niche game for a niche audience. That target audience doesn't want any of that hand holding (generally speaking). Those who do want that level of hand holding are probably going to find Pantheon to be something they don't like (I hope not because I'd love to see as many people in game as possible). Sorry to say that might be the truth of it. VR is making a game targeted at a rather small target audience.
Again though, we will need to wait for that phase of development before VR will speak on the subject i'm sure. Because we are no where near that stage.
Nephele said:Land said:I think that most people turn to daily quests as a crutch for a sense of accomplishment. Using Lego as an exmaple - many humans prefer following instructions rather than free-building; that's why the kit comes with them rather than just the box picture. This is likely because they do not want to go through the effort of defining their own goals in the game's content or that they don't find the fullfillment of those self-goals satisfying. This is the main problem with creating lots of excellent content but with little hand-holding. Many people may not be motivated enough to search it out and define what to do themselves. There needs to be sufficient guidance, but not so much as to turn the game into a job. I'm more for a self-defined goals heavy game because Pantheon is supposed to be challenging - not just in content, but also in preconceived playstyles.
There are some days when I get done at work, and get home, and I am absolutely braindead from the hours and hours of reports, and presentations, and meetings, and conference calls, and whatnot that somehow constitute my RL job every day. All I want to do on these nights is do something low-stress, that doesn't require a lot of thought, but I still want to log into whatever MMO I'm playing and at least see my friends. For me, on these nights, I usually log in to a game and craft or harvest or something, but I can see the appeal of having short, easy-to-stop-and-start adventuring goals as well.
I'll go a step further and say I think everyone has nights like that. Times when we really don't have the mental capacity or willpower to self direct, but still want to log in to the awesome world that's our hobby. Some folks maybe have it happen more than others, and some folks are more predisposed to it happening than others, but I think there's a danger in assuming that people are in the same mental state every time they play. Even the most hardcore raider has days when they just want to log in and go fishing, or something that they can do on their own. Likewise, even the most stressed-out person is going to sometimes have days when they really do want something they can sink their teeth into.
I think all of us want content that's meaningful, and don't want to feel forced into repettive things that make the game feel like a job. If we're logging in every night and doing the same set of things because it's the "most efficient way" to accomplish some goal, rather than because it's fun - that's a problem. However, I think we all also need small things to help us fill in the gaps - for those nights when we're braindead from work or life, or for those times when we just need something to get us started. Like I said in some of my posts above - a catalyst for adventures. :)
I cant argue with your position at all.
And that's exactly why its valuable on every other night you're not braindead to go into the world, to explore, to learn. So on that braindead night you dont really have to think. You know that there's that rock near the waterfall where you can pull spiders that still give you xp, drop a ton of silk you can use in crafting, and occasionally drop a pristine chitin that sells great to blacksmiths. And you can do it with relative safety and there's almost never anyone there.
If instead everyone in the game knows something will always be available to be spoon fed to them, they don't have to ever think. They never have to expiriment, explore, learn.
You make some good points Fey, and they are a big reason why I prefer a true open-world game filled with contested. Instances/Lockouts are the definition of spoon fed content that is always available. I understand there is a place for it but I really hope it's the exception rather than the rule. Seriously though ... all of the comments about "daily" content also apply to lockouts for ghost mobs. It's a repeatable event that you want to complete every time it's available ... rather than looking at the mob itself as a valuable resource in the world, people consider their "lockout" a resource. It kills the sense of adventure or experimentation. The one benefit is that people can schedule around them ... but again, I hope that kind of content is more on the limited side.
I think sometimes those of us who are heavily invested in Terminus here and now forget about the new people who will need to buy the game, to keep it successful. I know this is a niche game. But, the niche that VR is aiming at is still a lot of people. How many subs does VR need to be financially successful? 300,000, maybe 500,000 per month. More is better. I think this game looks awesome, and I can't wait. What's the best game they can put out to get people to pay $20/month for ten years, or more. People here dont want questing for experience, or dailies, and I understand the reasons people have given. But, what if those types of things help VR stay viable. What if some of these easier things draws people into the game and then they learn to like the "harder" game we all want? People have talked about wanting card games, casinos, fishing, farming, riding a boat, gathering, mining, smithing, swimming, because they like that. I don't see that means requiring a PC to gather, mine, fish etc. What if the game gave you some small amount of plat for being social, for an evening. Playing a card game in an Inn for a couple hours gives you some coin. Get people small things to do when they just want to relax among the incredible graphics VR is giving us in towns? Look at the effort VR put into making a town. People want doors to every building be able to open. Can't we be ok with doing some of these easier things? Why can't dailies, be something that you can do, but don't need to do. Wouldn't that help bring more people into Pantheon? I think I read that VR is targeting two hours of time for most users to play. If there are dailies that give some coin or experience only you don't fall behind by not doing them. People join a group and do some small encounter/daily get some plat, some experience, that's going to ruin Pantheon for you? This idea that somebody might level by doing easier things just ruins the whole game? /Boggle
@Questaar
I have a problem with mandatory dailies, aka quest that you can do only once a day that give you an essential or really valuable reward that cannot be aquired in any other way (or the daily itself being the most effective way of getting said reward), therefore "forcing" you to complete them in a daily schedule as to not fall behind.
I have no problem with repetable activities that players can do to chill out and relax for 30mins to an hour when they don't have enough time for a full playtrough (aslong as they're not mandatory in any way shape or form), but again I do not consider that to be daily content, it's just content that you choose to do, there isn't the need for a quest telling you to fish, or mine or gather or work on your trade skills or solo farm materials from easy mobs (or if they implement card games or that social feature you talked about), you're inside the game and have all those options to choose from and I don't see the need for quests telling you what to do, this way the game stays a lot more open-ended and these tasks don't feel like tasks at all they're simply a part of the game and a part of your progression and adventure.
Questaar said:I think sometimes those of us who are heavily invested in Terminus here and now forget about the new people who will need to buy the game, to keep it successful. I know this is a niche game. But, the niche that VR is aiming at is still a lot of people. How many subs does VR need to be financially successful? 300,000, maybe 500,000 per month. More is better. I think this game looks awesome, and I can't wait. What's the best game they can put out to get people to pay $20/month for ten years, or more. People here dont want questing for experience, or dailies, and I understand the reasons people have given. But, what if those types of things help VR stay viable. What if some of these easier things draws people into the game and then they learn to like the "harder" game we all want? People have talked about wanting card games, casinos, fishing, farming, riding a boat, gathering, mining, smithing, swimming, because they like that. I don't see that means requiring a PC to gather, mine, fish etc. What if the game gave you some small amount of plat for being social, for an evening. Playing a card game in an Inn for a couple hours gives you some coin. Get people small things to do when they just want to relax among the incredible graphics VR is giving us in towns? Look at the effort VR put into making a town. People want doors to every building be able to open. Can't we be ok with doing some of these easier things? Why can't dailies, be something that you can do, but don't need to do. Wouldn't that help bring more people into Pantheon? I think I read that VR is targeting two hours of time for most users to play. If there are dailies that give some coin or experience only you don't fall behind by not doing them. People join a group and do some small encounter/daily get some plat, some experience, that's going to ruin Pantheon for you? This idea that somebody might level by doing easier things just ruins the whole game? /Boggle
Even in a niche I can't imagine they will have a hard time getting 500k+, I suspect they will get more than that but probably not at $20 a month. I don't think they are in a safe position to push and be the most expensive monthly subscription ever for a MMORPG, especially in a landscape incredibly skeptical of even the $14.99 standard or really any sub fees at all.
Questing for experience never much made sense to me as the experience from a quest should be gained by doing the quest itself and not by turning some item in to a NPC. I mean, I am sure there will be quests and they might even give some decent experience at low levels but personally I don't want quests to be a main or even secondary means of EXP because it changes the focus of the game and more directly affects the paths players take. If you have quests to go to various dungeons or hunt in specific areas that reward good loot/experience then it behooves players to pick up said quests and do them and otherwise rewards the player for doing something they are already likely doing.
As for daily quests the issue really is: where do you draw the line? If you make it so you get money/experience/reputation/etc for little effort then you are at a loss for not doing them for easy "x" every day compared to others. If they don't reward much of anything for the effort then players won't likely ever do them anyway. I mean sure maybe they could put daily quests in that take 30 minutes to an hour of running around with a tiny reward for those bored individuals that don't want to do anything in particular in a play session, but I don't think it should be more than maybe 10-15% of what a player could make if they spent that same time actually out killing/doing level appropriate things.
I don't think VR is interested in casting a wide net and seeing what they can reel in. They are more interested in reeling in a specific set of fish. In their own words:
"While some MMOs have been designed with the goal and desire to appeal to all gamers, all of the time, we at Visionary Realms believe the future of MMOs is all about making more focused games, targeting specific gamers with distinct preferences."
Questaar said:I think sometimes those of us who are heavily invested in Terminus here and now forget about the new people who will need to buy the game, to keep it successful. I know this is a niche game. But, the niche that VR is aiming at is still a lot of people. How many subs does VR need to be financially successful? 300,000, maybe 500,000 per month. More is better. I think this game looks awesome, and I can't wait. What's the best game they can put out to get people to pay $20/month for ten years, or more. People here dont want questing for experience, or dailies, and I understand the reasons people have given. But, what if those types of things help VR stay viable. What if some of these easier things draws people into the game and then they learn to like the "harder" game we all want? People have talked about wanting card games, casinos, fishing, farming, riding a boat, gathering, mining, smithing, swimming, because they like that. I don't see that means requiring a PC to gather, mine, fish etc. What if the game gave you some small amount of plat for being social, for an evening. Playing a card game in an Inn for a couple hours gives you some coin. Get people small things to do when they just want to relax among the incredible graphics VR is giving us in towns? Look at the effort VR put into making a town. People want doors to every building be able to open. Can't we be ok with doing some of these easier things? Why can't dailies, be something that you can do, but don't need to do. Wouldn't that help bring more people into Pantheon? I think I read that VR is targeting two hours of time for most users to play. If there are dailies that give some coin or experience only you don't fall behind by not doing them. People join a group and do some small encounter/daily get some plat, some experience, that's going to ruin Pantheon for you? This idea that somebody might level by doing easier things just ruins the whole game? /Boggle