Because imagining something new and talking about it, feels better than trying to tribally bond over how bad the food is in the cafeteria? Bonding over stuff we hate is a public education thing. We all hated when it wasn't pizza day in school, maybe nachos day if your lunch lady could make the cheese right. But hating on bad food at school is how children have learned to bond with each other for decades.
So I see quite a bit of value in confirmation bias even when the subject is negative, both socially, and to the development process. I really do.
But in a creative discussion about ideas, there is almost no value to that perspective. Not only do you want to create contention between unique perspectives, but you want to focus that conflict on the goal of solving itself. Feedback (negative or positive) really has no need for social affirmation to be legitimate and the tendency to support negative feeback creates social bonds, more than it creates new ideas.
And new ideas will have their own new problems to argue about, why not try to bond over those? That's all I am saying.
Give me an answer to the problem Zenn. How can you make daily quests something I am going to like? I mean no offense but it is time to put up or shut up. You cant just tell me or anyone else that if we try really hard we can come up with a way to make a change to a system we don't like to make it likeable when you yourself can't come up with one single way to do it. You fine me one reeason, one mechanic, just one thing that will make me just neutral to the idea. I don't have to love it, or even like it, just enough for me to accept it and I will take it all back.
If you can't do that then this thread isn't really a conversation, it's a list of things we don't like. If you can't provide an alternative or a patch then there isn't much to be said from your side. So I say keep on letting the people that matter know why we don't wat them until such time as someone comes up with a reason to like them.
I gave one already.
GM events that last a week or more with a daily task component. I assume everyone here is familiar with how extremely popular GM events were in early MMORPGs? I can (and am constantly like there is a cartoon tornado in my head) think of a thousand ways. That is less interesting to me than what you can think of.
I bet all of you can think of at least one way a daily routine of some kind might provide a positive play experience.
Iksar said:"You don't like eating poop? Well how about you find a way to make poop something you do enjoy eating."
Um Mr Leezard sir... not sure how to break this to you, but we humans literally do turn poop, into the food we enjoy eating... So I guess, wow, this must be horrifying for you. I am so sorry.
Even my Pies technically start out as Poop...
ZennExile said:Describing things you don't like, is about as useful as a cooler, in the arctic. Agreeing with other people to support the things they don't like... that's a whole new level of not making sense to me.
What would be useful, is if some of you thought about the things you don't like about daily tasks, and attempt to turn them into something you would like.
"How can all the things you don't like about the dreaded 'DAILY QUEST', be changed into something you do like." - this a conversation worth having. Creating an imaginary scenario where everything you hate about them is magnified just to re-affirm how much you hate them... That's sort of a conversation ender. Am I wrong?
People have a right express their like or dislike of a particular game mechanic, some of us are saying...been there done that, don't like, don't want. :)
Cana
I agree with designated dailies that layout your what your daily activities should be is not desirable. At least for me.
And, instead of a bunch of "Gathering Quests" that are repeatable, how about just knowing that certain NPCs want certain things. For example, an NPC that claims that rat tails make for great soup and you should bring him any that you come upon and he's recompense you for them. Then, whenever you stop in town, you run by him and get 5 copper per rat tail or some such thing and maybe some small xp reward too. You don't need to get a quest and have 15 of them for it to count. But it is enough to get newbies to hunt rats. And maybe even mid-levels might continue doing it if they can see some small change in there xp bar or their purse. And of course there would be harder ones for higher levels, etc.
It can actually be "jobs". Potion Shops want certain ingredients and Leather armorers want certain skins, etc. And perhaps some of those venders then have those items for sale for crafters. Or maybe crafting materials are left out of this system. My point being that it can be worked into the "aliveness" of towns that the NPCs need things from the players without being a quest hub scenario. You can just be pretty sure that there'll be someone that wants some batwings and/or pig fat in the next town, so you gather them if it seems worth it.
Remove the "questing" from gathering quests. We don't really need quest taking up space in a quest log and an NPC counting your stuff and inspecting your 1040ez before it can be removed from the list.
I agree that eating poop is NOT something that I want in this game.
ZennExile said:I gave one already.
GM events that last a week or more with a daily task component. I assume everyone here is familiar with how extremely popular GM events were in early MMORPGs? I can (and am constantly like there is a cartoon tornado in my head) think of a thousand ways. That is less interesting to me than what you can think of.
I bet all of you can think of at least one way a daily routine of some kind might provide a positive play experience.
I agree GM events are great. I love them. But adding in a daily quest to a GM event will kill that magic. The thing that made them fun to me was the fact they were unpredictable and unique. In short they showed up with no warning and disappeared just as quickly. A daily is by definition repeatable. It is not unique. So for me not a fun form of a GM event.
That was a good way of thinking and all but still not meeting my criterea.
Iksar said:How does one turn a concept they dislike in every iteration into something they do like? I'd like daily quests if they didn't exist.
This is the main issue seen here with how this topic and most things in modern society have fallen. If something works then you try and make it better. If it has no point or value and does not work then you get rid of it, but you offer up why that is. Yet there is this main issue seen all too often not just in MMO's but business over all. Just because some people do not like it does not mean you rework or gut it into something that it is not. I am saying this to everyone on here who thinks have or have not. If it even fits into the game they are making then we offer up ideas on how to make it the best it can be. We can make it better by having a conversation.
No one is going to like everything and if you try and pander to people who do not like a aspect of the game you end up with making something which is the very issue we see in most other MMO's and why we are here at Pantheon to begin with.
...fine. Here's another example... with a bit more funk on it.
"Welcome to the Pie shop Traveling NewFriend, you here to shop or you wanna make some coin? I've always got two things, Pie and work to do. If you want to make some coin helpin me out, Shae sets out each morning at first light to a hidden orchard in the mountains. Just meet her there at the second lamp post from This Town's Path and Commons Road. Anything you don't spill on your way back to the shop I'll pay good coin for.
Now... about that Pie you said you wanted?"
What if Daily, is based on the day/night cycle in the game, and NPCs in the game have jobs, or duties, and you can help them to perform these duties on a time sensitive routine, that requires no quest, just passing dialogue and promixity? What if mechanics like this are already planned to be part of perception events?
Would you still hate them?
ZennExile said:...fine. Here's another example... with a bit more funk on it.
"Welcome to the Pie shop Traveling NewFriend, you here to shop or you wanna make some coin? I've always got two things, Pie and work to do. If you want to make some coin helpin me out, Shae sets out each morning at first light to a hidden orchard in the mountains. Just meet her there at the second lamp post from This Town's Path and Commons Road. Anything you don't spill on your way back to the shop I'll pay good coin for.
Now... about that Pie you said you wanted?"
What if Daily, is based on the day/night cycle in the game, and NPCs in the game have jobs, or duties, and you can help them to perform these duties on a time sensitive routine, that requires no quest, just passing dialogue and promixity? What if mechanics like this are already planned to be part of perception events?
Would you still hate them?
To me this example is not a "Daily", this is a quest tied into a npc's work day. EQ Kithicor forest comes to mind, you may survive there in daylight but will get killed at night time. Things changing depending on the time of day in a game is great.
When I'm talking about "Dailys" the ones I'm thinking about are the dailys games like GW2 has. Do this today and get a laural, that you then can spend on this or that.
I very much like quests like the one in your example or quests like the one in EQ Qeynos where you hand in batwings for some coppers and you could do this all day if you wanted to.
The difference is you do these quests when you want to for how long you want to (if it's up), the reward is the same. Like trying to get your faction up. The dailys I'm talking about do not work like this and how they work affects the way the game is played.
-sorte.
DragonFist said:I agree with designated dailies that layout your what your daily activities should be is not desirable. At least for me.
And, instead of a bunch of "Gathering Quests" that are repeatable, how about just knowing that certain NPCs want certain things. For example, an NPC that claims that rat tails make for great soup and you should bring him any that you come upon and he's recompense you for them. Then, whenever you stop in town, you run by him and get 5 copper per rat tail or some such thing and maybe some small xp reward too. You don't need to get a quest and have 15 of them for it to count. But it is enough to get newbies to hunt rats. And maybe even mid-levels might continue doing it if they can see some small change in there xp bar or their purse. And of course there would be harder ones for higher levels, etc.
It can actually be "jobs". Potion Shops want certain ingredients and Leather armorers want certain skins, etc. And perhaps some of those venders then have those items for sale for crafters. Or maybe crafting materials are left out of this system. My point being that it can be worked into the "aliveness" of towns that the NPCs need things from the players without being a quest hub scenario. You can just be pretty sure that there'll be someone that wants some batwings and/or pig fat in the next town, so you gather them if it seems worth it.
Remove the "questing" from gathering quests. We don't really need quest taking up space in a quest log and an NPC counting your stuff and inspecting your 1040ez before it can be removed from the list.
I agree that eating poop is NOT something that I want in this game.
I disagree with trivial repeatable quests that give a small exp reward... Some people will inevitably use these quests to grind out levels and that really grinds my gears.
In order to progress in any way you should have to take risks, plan, and execute not just grind away at something trivial.
These repeatable quests should only give a bit of coin, a small faction hit, and possibly a minor item.
Getting to max level should not just be handed out to every player that will bang there head against trivial content. It should actually be an impressive feat.
Thanks again,
Kiz~
ZennExile said:...fine. Here's another example... with a bit more funk on it.
"Welcome to the Pie shop Traveling NewFriend, you here to shop or you wanna make some coin? I've always got two things, Pie and work to do. If you want to make some coin helpin me out, Shae sets out each morning at first light to a hidden orchard in the mountains. Just meet her there at the second lamp post from This Town's Path and Commons Road. Anything you don't spill on your way back to the shop I'll pay good coin for.
Now... about that Pie you said you wanted?"
What if Daily, is based on the day/night cycle in the game, and NPCs in the game have jobs, or duties, and you can help them to perform these duties on a time sensitive routine, that requires no quest, just passing dialogue and promixity? What if mechanics like this are already planned to be part of perception events?
Would you still hate them?
If an NPC is doing some kind of work that they would do in a real world, like collecting meat or drink for a tavern lets say. Thats fine and cool, but not as a repeatable quest that you as a player can only complete once a day. If the guy needs 200 hams for his inn or tavern then that the NPCs daily quest. Not mine. The NPC needs to get players to give him the stuff he wants. I should not be limited. If I show up with 5 or 105 hams I should be able to supply this guy. And once he gets his limit the quest is done until the next game day.
Thats not a daily in the current gaming world. There are not tokens involved. There is not requirement to do this in order to keep up with everyone else. By not doing it you are not sacrificing yourself to missing out or some goal that requires you to do the quest 30 times to get a special reward. It's just a part of the game world that makes it feel a little more real or alive. Artificial time limits placed on when a quest can be done just makes the game feel more gamey.
I am with you on all of the things you mentioned above. Sounds cool. But if I can only get this guy his pies once a day and everyone else can too it just seems fake. It becomes a task to do every day for exp, coin, or someother thing that doesn't fit into my personal idea of a game world.
>There is not requirement to do this in order to keep up with everyone else. By not doing it you are not sacrificing yourself to missing out or some goal that requires you to do the quest 30 times to get a special reward<
With all due respect you have a VERY limited definition of what a daily quest is - perhaps based on bad experience in one or two MMOs. Some are like this but many are not.
Do you like festivals in MMOs? What if the festivals didn't happen every two to four months but instead there was a mini festival every day? Repeatable (perhaps with variation perhaps not) the next day.
I have never really experienced daily's. However my thinking is, in a sandbox environment, you make your own dailys.
Yes you are logged in and you want to group, no one you know is around, you deal.
You deal with it by either making new friends or thinking about what you can do.
I would categorize it,
1. things I can do alone, but that I can stop at any time, like crafting or factioning.
2. things that can be done with a sub-optimal group or two or three tops, like camping/hunting for special drops.
3. full blown out grinds or uber groupage, where everyone happens to be on at the same time and we group in a heart beat- to conquer a quest or task.
But it brings up a hidden "Meta" mechanic as I see it, that a sanbox type enviroment encourages/prods a player into a Meta gaming stanpoint since when bored- say from blowing through content- you have no choice but to take on fishing, or crafting, or faction - for fun. Forcing one to stop and smell the roses as-it-were or forcing the meta game that includes fishing/crafting, factioning. Which brings up management of the Meta game- to have fished or crafted at small times in down times instead of now being uber and spending all your time fishing or crafting or factioning untill the next expansion comes out.
I'll give you my personal EQ example. I dont have Neriak faction, but I have old school cultural armor- stats are lousy by todays standards but it was good at the time and I dont want to "waste" it. When I wear the cultural armor it is sheer- see through. I made a rabbit head cap ornament. I have the ability to get "beer goggles" from the kings court casino.
How is neriak faction, cultural armor, rabbit head ornaments and beer goggles related?: Well, I want to get neriak faction (that is a huge, lengthy grind). Just so I can have a bit of fun in being in a bar in the foreign quarter in Neriak, with the rabbits head ornament on, in my sheer cultural armor, and RP'ing a story when my friends come on and wonder why I am in Neriak. I can ask them to come get me because I was forced to work in the bar and serve drinks, and when the come- if they have factrion ho ho- they will see me in the rabbit ears and sheer clothing and I can plead with them to help me out of there and stop looking at me with the "beer goggles" and make up some story how I was forced to work there and this pure cultural armor- ohh the drama, oh so ashamed.
Just so I can do that? is a goal for me to spend maybe years- trying to get neriak faction- heh
As they're eschewing traditional quest hubs in favor of the perception system, and considering their reasons for doing so, I'd be very surprised if they were to go to these lengths only to then add in the most notoriously mundane variety of task grinding.
It just doesn't seem to mesh at all with the rest of their design concept and, to date, focus on emergent gameplay.
The only way dailies will work in Pantheon is to make them entirely optional like all other quests will be.
VR says that quests will NOT be used for leveling, which means exp gains from quests will be trivial.
If dailies grant exp akin to a significant amount of grinding in a camp with a group, then they would be a primary way to level.
If dailies grant significant amounts rep/faction they will be primary ways to grind faction.
If dailies grant significant amounts of cash then they will be the primary way to grind cash.
Any of these make dailies a "requirement". As in, if you do not engage in these activities you are at a severe disadvantage.
I do not like being required to do anything I do not wish to do. I hate questing period. With the exception being Epic quests that actually have a large amount of lore behind the quest. Quests that require me to go kill 30 orcs and bring their fangs to RandomNPC_01 has little to no lore behind the quest. Its busy work. This type of thing was introduced in modern games with little to no grouping requirements, could be almost entirely run solo, and had little to no socialization beyond toxic children spamming Chuck Norris jokes and hate speech in general chat.
If dailies are not required, as in they provide no real benefit other than having a task to complete, then what's the point of even having them?
Repeatable quests are not the same as daily quests. People need to really define these quests better.
For me, a daily quest is a repeatable quest that’s primary purpose is to assist in the farming of some in game compensation (IE Faction, XP, Gold, Other Currency). I do not like these types of quests.
Having repeatable tasks that are trivial, such as the various newbie quests in EQ1 that could net you low level spells but gave no real benefit beyond that or quests that rewarded you with a trivial amount of coin or some tattered leather armor, would be great! I love these types of quests. If there are daily quests that could be done to facilitate tradeskilling and rewarded with some small trivial amount of trade skill materials or coin, cool. sounds like a great idea, but these types of quests do not fall into the "Daily" quests I am against.
Events that are short term and have some daily quest component that rewards with some trivial costume item or illusion item or some such which gives no benefit at all to progression, fine. Those, again, do not fall under the definition of a "daily" for me. Though VR has said that they will not have real world events in game either so these will probably be few and far between.
If anything about the quest could end up making it a "requirement" then I am against seeing it in game.
Angrykiz said:DragonFist said:I agree with designated dailies that layout your what your daily activities should be is not desirable. At least for me.
And, instead of a bunch of "Gathering Quests" that are repeatable, how about just knowing that certain NPCs want certain things. For example, an NPC that claims that rat tails make for great soup and you should bring him any that you come upon and he's recompense you for them. Then, whenever you stop in town, you run by him and get 5 copper per rat tail or some such thing and maybe some small xp reward too. You don't need to get a quest and have 15 of them for it to count. But it is enough to get newbies to hunt rats. And maybe even mid-levels might continue doing it if they can see some small change in there xp bar or their purse. And of course there would be harder ones for higher levels, etc.
It can actually be "jobs". Potion Shops want certain ingredients and Leather armorers want certain skins, etc. And perhaps some of those venders then have those items for sale for crafters. Or maybe crafting materials are left out of this system. My point being that it can be worked into the "aliveness" of towns that the NPCs need things from the players without being a quest hub scenario. You can just be pretty sure that there'll be someone that wants some batwings and/or pig fat in the next town, so you gather them if it seems worth it.
Remove the "questing" from gathering quests. We don't really need quest taking up space in a quest log and an NPC counting your stuff and inspecting your 1040ez before it can be removed from the list.
I agree that eating poop is NOT something that I want in this game.
I disagree with trivial repeatable quests that give a small exp reward... Some people will inevitably use these quests to grind out levels and that really grinds my gears.
In order to progress in any way you should have to take risks, plan, and execute not just grind away at something trivial.
These repeatable quests should only give a bit of coin, a small faction hit, and possibly a minor item.
Getting to max level should not just be handed out to every player that will bang there head against trivial content. It should actually be an impressive feat.
Thanks again,
Kiz~
I'm just throwing ideas out there. My main point is remove the getting, completing and counting of "gathering quests". Just let the NPC take the batwings or orc scalps or bandit ears. I don't really see a problem with a small xp reward. I mean, if it takes 5000 bandit ears to gain one yellow bubble at level 15, who really cares. The balance of all that is for the devs.
I don't really care if these quests have or don't have xp. But there were things like the farm in EQ1 (I forget which expansion). There were gnome mech spiders and Pumpkinhead scarecrows and some other mobs and there were some NPCs nearby that you could run to and get some collection quests for these mobs that you could get extra xp from. Didn't ruin the game. In fact, it was one of the nicer grinds. So, while my point wasn't the xp of it, I don't really see the issue as long as it isn't some sort of easy route to levelling like 5 batwings = 10% of a level or some silly nonsense like that.
And I don't feel any real desire to stop people from grinding to level. It gets done. Hell, pretty much everyone will do it. You don't grind on Red Con mobs unless you have somehow figured out how to trivialize it. You grind green or blue mobs that your group can easily do. If yellow or reds fit in that definition, then you'll grind those. Great for your group. But one finds something one can easily do and do it over and over. That IS grinding. So what if collecting things off of those mobs adds a little more as long as it is a relatively balanced amount.
Reading through this thread it seems the definitition of "Daily" means different things to different people. My understanding of a "Daily" is when you have to complete a task each day (real time as opposed to the day/night cycle in game) to get some sort or token or reward for that day only. If you don't complete the task you fall behind others players because there is no way to do the task more than once a day. Under this definition, I am completely against daily's as they make the game feel like a second job where you feel like you have to log in to get the task done.
That said, there are many other ideas here that don't seem to fall under that definition to me. The dynamic events of the hill giant scenario is one great example. Zenn has also posted other ideas that seem just fine to me but unless I am misunderstanding what he is posting they don't seem like the "Daily" quests as I defined above.
I have a friend who does some sort of daily type stuff in Rift, everyday, even though he doesn't play the game anymore. I guess he logs in, sets his minions to do these tasks for whatever it is they give in return, then he logs out.
For the life of me, I don't understand why he does them if he doesn't even play the gema anymore. :)
@Fulton Probably because if he doesn't, but comes back later to play, he will be not only behind but have no way to catch up cause it's based on daily limits. Your example is the poster-boy for why you shouldn' tput in daily quests.
I do understand why they put in daily quests. It's part of the "lazy" dev category of game building where the game turns more toward mobile gaming than an MMO.
Thorndeep said:Reading through this thread it seems the definitition of "Daily" means different things to different people. My understanding of a "Daily" is when you have to complete a task each day (real time as opposed to the day/night cycle in game) to get some sort or token or reward for that day only. If you don't complete the task you fall behind others players because there is no way to do the task more than once a day. Under this definition, I am completely against daily's as they make the game feel like a second job where you feel like you have to log in to get the task done.
That said, there are many other ideas here that don't seem to fall under that definition to me. The dynamic events of the hill giant scenario is one great example. Zenn has also posted other ideas that seem just fine to me but unless I am misunderstanding what he is posting they don't seem like the "Daily" quests as I defined above.
That is the point. Try to think of some way to make the concept of a daily quest, something you don't recognize as a daily quest, so there is no triggered defense mechanism to stop you from imagining the routine play out.
A Daily Taskboard with jobs to do, is something every town in a small village should probably have. Roofs need repair, crops need harvesting, water needs collecting, rats need killing. etc.. etc..
Time sensitive tasks, or time limited tasks, are Dailies for all intents and purposes. To be a Daily, a task simply needs to have a cooldown on when you can repeat it again. Something as mundane as harvesting free Fishing bait from a place near the pond, but only being allowed to go one round per day, maybe the Hermit fisherman will only let you play one game of Wack the Worms, or Smack the Beetles, per day for a handful of fishing bait. Then you have to buy more at full price, or make it yourself, if you have the skill to craft lures.
You can really go anywhere you want with Routine Tasks and/or Time restricted Tasks. The extreme argument here seems to be that everyone wants all content availible any moment they personally log in. And if that is what you want, I suggest Destiny 2, or any new tripple A RPG. Part of what makes MMORPGs compelling, is that you can miss things when you are not in the world. Because the game world goes on without you. That is sort of important.
The cash shop enhancing daily task treadmill is just one single (should be regulated as gambling) facet of this idea that if you don't log in you might miss out. They simply turned it around and made it like the door prizes at a casino for what should be obvious reasons. Mobile Gaming especially is turning into a series of Treadmills with Rewards mechanics that you put coins in for the chance to win. Even games like BDO, or Archeage end up as RPG Skins on what is essentially a Slot Machine, with added "Fun".
So try not to think about the treadmill version of Dailies. Think about time sensitive routines that could play out with complete disregard to player involvement. Think about what sorts of mechanics or content, can make the player feel like the game world will go on without them in it. And explore the things you like to do for routines.
These simple Routines, are already your daily quests. Build them into something with meaning.
I did come up with a way to make daily quests acceptable. Make it so there is nothing to gain from them except the enjoyment of doing them. No money, no experience, no token currency, and no faction. Make it so someone can do them just for the joy of doing them because they want too.
And I don't think telling people to change how they think about something is going to bring about a solution in this case. No matter how you dress it up or modify it a daily is always going to be a repeatable quest or mission that you are locked out of after completing until the timer expires. In some cases I can be down with repeatable quests. But putting an artifical timer on them is not something I can go with, unless there is nothing at stake. Then I could care less.
Instead of trying to trick the playerbase into accepting daily quests by trying to hide what they are maybe we should just try to define a new kind of quest that has what good a daily might have and remove the bad. But to do that it won't be a daily anymore, it will be something new or different.