Kilsin said:Absolutely mate, what we showed off was very early implementation of AI pathing and abilities, there will be a lot more including but not limited to the possibility of zone wide pathers, dungeon-wide pathers (and even patrol groups etc.) so it definitely isn't a finished product yet, be sure to keep an eye out for more progress as we get further into development ;)
So i am going to assume from your statement there, it is open much like EQ was in the open. You can argo by not paying attention just by walking in the open areas?
Hi buddy, see you always busy... :)
Crazzie said:Kilsin said:Absolutely mate, what we showed off was very early implementation of AI pathing and abilities, there will be a lot more including but not limited to the possibility of zone wide pathers, dungeon-wide pathers (and even patrol groups etc.) so it definitely isn't a finished product yet, be sure to keep an eye out for more progress as we get further into development ;)
So i am going to assume from your statement there, it is open much like EQ was in the open. You can argo by not paying attention just by walking in the open areas?
Hi buddy, see you always busy... :)
Yes, similar to most games, there will be pathers, different types of mobs with differing aggro ranges etc. some zones will depend on whether it is day or night and so on, it is a work in progress but we are happy with the result so far. :)
oneADseven said:I hope to see NPC's that only spawn during random acclimation events (duststorms, thunderstorms, heatwaves, blizzards, etc) -- then day and night as a layer on top of that for even more fun!
Very cool idea
I'd add that pathing could change by weather too.
Blizzards could force more humanoids to actually start walking to shelter and more white wal...*cough*... zombies outside.
Kilsin said:Absolutely mate, what we showed off was very early implementation of AI pathing and abilities, there will be a lot more including but not limited to the possibility of zone wide pathers, dungeon-wide pathers (and even patrol groups etc.) so it definitely isn't a finished product yet, be sure to keep an eye out for more progress as we get further into development ;)
Lovin this, It will keep the players on their toes. Might make it harder to multibox a buff machine (roamer comes around first time that day to mess you up), hardcore powerleveling (random roamer kills your pet noob while you are off collecting an army for him), botters (unpredictable situations are always rough on them) too=)
The combination of real time (as opposed to fast travel) and day/night/acclimation spawning options for monsters could be absolutely epic in implemention. It would be pretty amazing to have a situation (even if it might not seem so at that exact time) where you need cool your heels in a village overnight because that path your on takes you through a haunted forest or the like. In the day time it's safe enough for travel, but at night the danger increased tenfold. Would make planning your routes, etc way more important. Plenty of games have the day/night mob table differences but fast travel negates the danger aspect. It just becomes a level appropriate grind zone since the low level players get a port to the other side.
Kittik said:Is there a way to make the pathing completely random?
I believe they said that would happen in the last stream. One thing I think would be cool if a game could ever do it is what they did in the Aliens vs Predator movie. Once in a dungeon the walls shifted behind you. If you get split up you may never get back to the other group unless you have coh or some other way to do it. Having ways to make dunegons random every time you go in would be great BUT it wont ever happen in a mmo that has no instances. The programming would be a nightmare so wont happen for a long time if ever.
sunstalkr said:Kittik said:Is there a way to make the pathing completely random?
I believe they said that would happen in the last stream. One thing I think would be cool if a game could ever do it is what they did in the Aliens vs Predator movie. Once in a dungeon the walls shifted behind you. If you get split up you may never get back to the other group unless you have coh or some other way to do it. Having ways to make dunegons random every time you go in would be great BUT it wont ever happen in a mmo that has no instances. The programming would be a nightmare so wont happen for a long time if ever.
I would accept instances for procedurally generated dungeons, such as Diablo-style.
sunstalkr said:Kittik said:Is there a way to make the pathing completely random?
I believe they said that would happen in the last stream. One thing I think would be cool if a game could ever do it is what they did in the Aliens vs Predator movie. Once in a dungeon the walls shifted behind you. If you get split up you may never get back to the other group unless you have coh or some other way to do it. Having ways to make dunegons random every time you go in would be great BUT it wont ever happen in a mmo that has no instances. The programming would be a nightmare so wont happen for a long time if ever.
Well truly "completely random" would mean a mob picking a random direction and then traveling a random distance in that direction and then doing that indefinitely. But that would just look ridiculous. I think what they were referring to in the last stream is that there would be several pathing options for mobs and the mob would travel one of them at random. Or even better, dynamically pick which one best for them, depending on their needs and wants. In life, people rarely if ever behave randomly. There is always some sort of motivation. The key is to be able to determine what that motivation is, so that you predict future behavior. The trick is there's almost always multiple hidden motivations and factors at play to varying degrees. Ideally, games should emulate this.
There has been some discussion about random dungeon layouts and it seemed like most people, myself included, were strongly against it. As you said, it doesn't make any sense in a persistant world. To me, it removes a lot of the personality from the dungeons. If there is a very good magical explanation for it in one or two of the zones, then that's cool. But otherwise, you should expect the walls, doors, etc. to not move. The majority of the target audience for Pantheon does not get bored so easily and is therefore much more willing to take the time to familiarize themselves with a zone until it almost feels like home. You wouldn't be able to feel like you can be a master of a zone by knowing all of its ins and outs. And to a lot of people, that just kills the fun.
Suffice to say, randomness is not entirely a good thing. It's not just about the programming. It's a lazy solution imo. There should be some sort of method that can be learned. It's fun to study pathing patterns and behavior and be able to use that knowledge to predict future mob actions. Of course, the more pathing possibilities they have, the longer it takes to memorize them, but making it completely random totally eliminates any desire to actually learn, because it's impossible. So again, the best thing lies between the two extremes. Most of us are used to games that are very static with a very limited amount of options and it gets monotonous quickly. But that doesn't mean we should swing the pendulum to the other side and make everything random. You can achieve both by giving NPCs a wide variety of options and a complex algorithm for making choices. It's the difference between behavior being scripted and behavior being based on making intelligent choices. That way, it's still possible to be able to study and predict, but it's a deep system that tries to stay one step ahead of you and will keep you interested for a lot longer.
Here's a quote from Zippyzee, the principal developer in charge of NPC AI:
"I will say the design takes into account the possibility of "learning" over time through weighing positive/negative outcomes but that may be overkill for an MMORPG and it would be fairly easy to make the AI just more difficult over time rather than more interesting, at some computing expense as well that might not be necessary.
In general terms, if an NPC is hungry, it should try to find some food. It might look in the normal area where it has a food supply. If there is none there, it might travel around a bit looking for food. If it can't find any, it might look for an animal to kill that would provide the food, and attack it. If we want to get really crazy, if a set of NPCs can't find food, they might migrate to another location, and perhaps displace the population there through a protracted battle. In a "learning" system the prey might realize that standing in that area is not safe, and migrate away as well.
My son says if the NPCs have a cook, and a rogue travels into the dungeon and kills the cook, and the NPCs can't eat, they may start to venture out of the cave looking for food. Or, players might place some food near the entrance of a cave, and that food source would be closer than their typical source, and they might venture out to eat. These are the kinds of gameplay elements that I'd like to see.
Now, I have no idea if we'll make hungry NPCs. If we did, we could have a hunger scale of 1-10 that is their disposition for needing to eat. At any given time they might have other more pressing priorities to attend to. But occasionally the "Hunger" priority will trigger and they will respond. And as NPCs spawn, they might have a range of say 4-6 for that particular behavior, and might act slightly differently than the last time they spawned.
Substitute any particular disposition for "Hungry" and imagine the same type of process, and you get the general idea of how I'd like AI to work. I want behavior to be predictable to some degree, in order to be a better player through experience, but for surprising behaviors and reactions to occasionally take place, and for players to experiment with ways to alter behaviors in their favor.
I will get into more details as we go along, but wanted to make sure you knew this was getting serious attention. My personal belief is that AI has been really ignored in most MMORPGs and if done correctly can really make a game stand out."
(Source: https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/4533/npc-s-just-standing-arround/view/page/1)
Bazgrim, I agree with most of what you said in your last post BUT what I really meant and I guess you didnt get was if the main rooms stayed the same but the path to them changed along with the mobs in those rooms/paths. Of course you would want them to blend in and be a natural part of that dungeon BUT can you imagine the feel of going into that dungeon and having it be dif every time? You could even change what rooms the named are in so wouldnt know exactly where they were. It would bring back that feeling of the unknown every time you went into a dungeon. Maybe even have new named with dif skills. Think about it. IF the last boss died wouldnt/shouldnt there be a new boss in town? With possibly completely dif skills? Hmmm they could program a dungeon to have many dif named with dif skill sets. Eventually ppl would get to know which one was which as the number would be finite BUT it would def keep you on your toes for a bit. They could even change what mobs inhabit the zone as if there was a clan/race war or some sort and because that dungeon was in such a good spot alot of dif groups would fight over it. One day dragons are there, then giants, etc. would def be interesting.
I believe for most mobs if they see they are getting slaughtered doing the same thing wouldnt their own AI tell them they need to do something dif? We all know the def of crazy is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a dif result. Well I gotta believe Dragons, Giants etc would be smart enough to change their own strats and move things around meaning knocking out walls for hidden ambushes etc. Like I said it would make a great game but I never see that much detail happening.They did say in the last stream the mobs AI would learn. I guess we shall see how much and how fast they learn and to what extent. Looking forward to testing it all out.
sunstalkr said:Bazgrim, I agree with most of what you said in your last post BUT what I really meant and I guess you didnt get was if the main rooms stayed the same but the path to them changed along with the mobs in those rooms/paths. Of course you would want them to blend in and be a natural part of that dungeon BUT can you imagine the feel of going into that dungeon and having it be dif every time? You could even change what rooms the named are in so wouldnt know exactly where they were. It would bring back that feeling of the unknown every time you went into a dungeon. Maybe even have new named with dif skills. Think about it. IF the last boss died wouldnt/shouldnt there be a new boss in town? With possibly completely dif skills? Hmmm they could program a dungeon to have many dif named with dif skill sets. Eventually ppl would get to know which one was which as the number would be finite BUT it would def keep you on your toes for a bit. They could even change what mobs inhabit the zone as if there was a clan/race war or some sort and because that dungeon was in such a good spot alot of dif groups would fight over it. One day dragons are there, then giants, etc. would def be interesting.
I believe for most mobs if they see they are getting slaughtered doing the same thing wouldnt their own AI tell them they need to do something dif? We all know the def of crazy is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a dif result. Well I gotta believe Dragons, Giants etc would be smart enough to change their own strats and move things around meaning knocking out walls for hidden ambushes etc. Like I said it would make a great game but I never see that much detail happening.They did say in the last stream the mobs AI would learn. I guess we shall see how much and how fast they learn and to what extent. Looking forward to testing it all out.
I get what you're saying, and all I'm saying is that it's not ALWAYS a good thing to have a completely new experience each time. I can imagine it and tbh I think I'd rather feel like I can lead my group through the zone because I am the master navigator from having been there so many times. But that's personal preference. I still don't think I'd even want the paths in a dungeon to change unless there is a very good lore-based explanation for why it's happening. Which probably wouldn't be that hard to do for just one or two zones, and that would probably be pretty cool. New bosses definitely do make sense to a degree, but it's not perfect - I suppose sometimes sacrifices of realism have to be made in a game.
Storybricks started working on some really cool AI for EQN that is very similar to what you described about mobs realizing that what they are doing is currently not working out very well for them, so they need to come up with a different approach. As a basic example, if an orc camp was set up along a forest path to ambush and rob travelers, but there weren't enough travelers on that road to make it worth their while, they would leave and try to find a road with more travelers. Or if players bashed their faces in enough times, they would leave and find some place where they wouldn't get killed so much. This is a great balance between behavior that can be understood and studied, but also has a degree of unpredictability.
To me, this is the ideal scenario. But I'm afraid we won't see something like this in an MMO anytime soon. When you've got hundreds or thousands of players affecting mob behavior like that, it could get really messy. But I do expect to see something on a smaller scale for Pantheon. I am also very interested to see how it works out.
This is OUT of dungeon (so sue me) - but I LOVED zone sweepers in EQ... mobs that kept my head on a swivel. Dorn B'Dynn, Grimfeather, etc... The fear they induced was exhilarating. When you played in the zone they roamed, you played on the edge of your seat... and you STILL got one shotted by them sometimes. However... you always knew that YOU were going to continue to level... YOU were going to get stronger... and they weren't.
SO....
It was scary, exciting, and sometimes a little angering (when they got you) to hunt in zones that were appropriate for your level... AND... it was all sorts of fun in a vengful sort of way to take trips back to those zones and return the one shot favor when you were able to. I still remember spending a night here and ther camping Dorn... or even just seeking him out when I was passing through... destroying him and doing this:
/Yell DORN B'DEAD!!!
I got my vengeance, I got to be a hero for the night. Did the same all over the game world. Sand giants, Grimfeather, Dorn, Emperor Crush, etc...
Windidar, I can still remember my 1st exp with the griffons in the commonlands. Someone shouted it was by where I happened to be and like a true newb I ran into the house/building that was standing there. I got in and gave a big sigh figuring I was safe. About a second later I got tapped on the shoulder and promptly eaten by said griffon. He had beaten me into the building lol. Dorn I think got everybody at least once, esp when someone would train him to the zone and ppl would be afk and the slaughter would begin. Sand Giants were the same. How many times I died while meming my spells after dying and one of those sneaky bastages would stomp me into the ground. Its amazing how quiet a Giant can be. Those were good/bad times lol but like you said it made you a better player etc. You learned to pay attention to sounds and chat.
Bazgrim, The ambushers would get either more friends OR bigger friends if they kept dying to ppl or even set up dif types of ambushes with mobs with dif skill sets. Casters/Archers besides melee.
I will say one thing I always hated in EQ was when the mob would get close to dying they would slowly try to walk away, turning their back to you. That was terrible AI if you could even call it that. The mob is by itself and is getting is rear end beaten so what does he do? He walks away thinking you are just going to let him walk away. Right. I know when I got attacked by more than one mob if I was dying I would fight to the finish just trying to even take one out even if I died to the other one. I guess it made me feel better heh. No way no how would I EVER turn my back and just let them kill me.
Anyways I am with you as I cant wait to play test what I have seen up to now.
SoWplz said: What I DO NOT want to see " we kill this mob, next that mob. The roamed will be 3 mins. Kill him, roamer spawns in 30 mins same hallway" What I DO want to see " Let's go in this room, they should not be here.....Wait where did he come from? We are good, wait here comes another group of them! Who has the Evac button? What do you mean you did not men evac? Why is the cleric laying down? Well this did not go as planned....." I think we all know what I'm talking about.
I completely agree and I'm sure we have ALL been in that situation. I will say I ALWAYS had evac memmed.
Hokanu said:Inside the tower we saw a few wandering mobs on the stream the other day. We know there are plenty out in the open world, I would really love to see many more of these wanderers in areas like the tower and dungeons. Especially ones on fairly large paths to keep everyone in the zone on their feet. I feel like these wanderers give a lot of life and danger to a zone and I also really the idea of some of these being casters who are stopping off at various mobs throughout their path to buff them, again this just adds lots of life to the area!
Also... can't wait to see healers & enchanters included in the mobs we are fighting! I think someone in the stream mentioned eventually to have mobs charming players which is great and adds such a (sometimes) hysterical aspect to the fight when your rogue goes rogue and starts backstabbing the group lol!
Wondering if people generally agree or disagree with more of these wanderers in dungeon type settings?
I've always felt that any place where you have a concentration of inhabitants, be it a fort, village, dungeon, etc, roaming NPC should outnumber static NPC. Movement everywhere just make the world seem more alive and active than when all you see anywhere are NPC just standing there staring blankly, waiting for some adventurer to end their misery.
One thing that would be interesting if the wandering mobs could be alertist as well, like we've seen a few times in some streams, or maybe have it to where maybe the wandering mobs have bigger aggro ranges than static ones to make them more dangeroud than the usual he's moving from point a to point b.
Riahuf22 said:One thing that would be interesting if the wandering mobs could be alertist as well, like we've seen a few times in some streams, or maybe have it to where maybe the wandering mobs have bigger aggro ranges than static ones to make them more dangeroud than the usual he's moving from point a to point b.
So.... basically what you would have with this "wandering alertist" if he came up undetected behind your group, would be a mob griefing your group with a train.
Lol... some people not going to like that at all.
"You're in our world now" comes to mind, I love it!
Vandraad said:Hokanu said:Inside the tower we saw a few wandering mobs on the stream the other day. We know there are plenty out in the open world, I would really love to see many more of these wanderers in areas like the tower and dungeons. Especially ones on fairly large paths to keep everyone in the zone on their feet. I feel like these wanderers give a lot of life and danger to a zone and I also really the idea of some of these being casters who are stopping off at various mobs throughout their path to buff them, again this just adds lots of life to the area!
Also... can't wait to see healers & enchanters included in the mobs we are fighting! I think someone in the stream mentioned eventually to have mobs charming players which is great and adds such a (sometimes) hysterical aspect to the fight when your rogue goes rogue and starts backstabbing the group lol!
Wondering if people generally agree or disagree with more of these wanderers in dungeon type settings?
I've always felt that any place where you have a concentration of inhabitants, be it a fort, village, dungeon, etc, roaming NPC should outnumber static NPC. Movement everywhere just make the world seem more alive and active than when all you see anywhere are NPC just standing there staring blankly, waiting for some adventurer to end their misery.
Agreed! That would be great to really put everyone on alert and make ! Even if a lot of these mobs are just on shorter paths seemingly interacting with each (just visually) other as they wander about!
Riahuf22 said:One thing that would be interesting if the wandering mobs could be alertist as well, like we've seen a few times in some streams, or maybe have it to where maybe the wandering mobs have bigger aggro ranges than static ones to make them more dangeroud than the usual he's moving from point a to point b.
Maybe they will include larger agro range in the cone of vision (180degrees ahead of them). This may allow for some well timed pulls to avoid a wandering mob who might be fairly close by but just turning around to go the other way.
It would be great if some of the wanderers in dungeon settings have "crossroad" spots where they stop and hold fast for a bit but then may walk off in any of the given directions. There might be 3 different paths they could take and there is some of randomness to their decision. if you had some names doing similar things this would be pretty fun, lets say you have player groups in the north side of a tower and in the south side of a tower, they all know a name might pop on this path but he may be walking north or south and they all are essentially open to him as a pull because he at some stage will be going in both directions. Might be an excited rush to see who can lock him down first, but in the rush from one group they fail to notice they have a wanderer coming up from the other side...
Wandidar said:This is OUT of dungeon (so sue me) - but I LOVED zone sweepers in EQ... mobs that kept my head on a swivel. Dorn B'Dynn, Grimfeather, etc... The fear they induced was exhilarating. When you played in the zone they roamed, you played on the edge of your seat... and you STILL got one shotted by them sometimes. However... you always knew that YOU were going to continue to level... YOU were going to get stronger... and they weren't.
GOONS to ramp!
OMG, I can still remember camping the OT for days, keeping one eye on the pulls, the other on the group, and a third eye out for the goons. Risk vs reward - at the right balance it's an amazingly effective psychological tool.