As far as loot goes (and not knowing all the planned systems for the game) I see things like this as far as BiS items: 40% raids, 30% dungeon (perhaps end bosses tuned to only allow 1 group), 20% hard/long questlines, 10% crafting.
A comment I made from another thread that was derailed into this kind of thing:
...A well tuned and difficult 6 man boss encounter can be punishingly hard and require all six players to be on top of their game respectively. When you have the large numbers for raiding, there tends to be much more leeway and foregiveness of mistakes made by members probably because it is MUCH harder to balance a raid to so many classes/abilities and compositions. It is not uncommon to see guilds selling out slots in a raid to make money which implies there tends to be plenty of room for error. In my personal experience the hardest part of raiding is often just getting the bodies together, watching an explanation video, and a handful of hours getting the dance right. But who knows, maybe they will make the raid bosses dynamic so that it isn't just the same song and dance of Phase 1, Phase 2, etc where you know what happens and when. But smaller groups you can tune it much easier within the class archetypes, you can punish individual mistakes more easily.
...Difficulty can be found anywhere with a little thought and creativity.
Megaera said: In an 100% open world game you can't really have dungeons.... unless VR decides to put in instances for smaller guilds or people to do theese, it will be impossible to keep,just 6 people from doing it.
In the most recent podcast I believe they said they are thinking of ways to combat this. Making some bosses either flee if you try to zerg them, call in reinforcements, etc. Maybe it's a stretch but I imagine it could include the boss expelling those not in the group of whomever triggered/engaged him and locking the room.
VG had alot of group content that was challenging and rewarding. There were PoTA. That was essentially a 6 man raid dungeon, with 1 fight being 12. From beginning to end took months, and thats if you were well geared already. My guild at the time did PoTA trials every Friday and it took us 6 months to finally get some people through all 12, and we needed help from bigger guilds to do so. I loved that place and City of Brass, which was similiar (6 man content).
Enitzu said:... So what do you guys feel is the "best" way to handle end game content? What do you want to log on every day to do? Be precise if possible and cite examples where you can....
LDON. With even more specificity and customization for all aspects of a character, including every stat, resist, spell / skill, everything. Group content with varying degrees of difficulty, up to and including "nigh impossible" mode.
That's how you let characters experience tangible daily personal progress, which keeps them playing ~forever.
moszis said:Lets not turn this into something like a political debate. Where neither side presents their opinions but rather pre-preprogrammed slogans through indoctrination. Slogans that they themselves would not believe if put under intellectual scrutiny.
Without trying to debate the top level point, lets figure out some underlying concepts:
- Why is raiding the most difficult part of the game? Is it really? What makes it inherently the most difficult part of the game regardless of implementation?
- Why is raiding the mot time consuming? Why cant no other activity be more time consuming?
- Why does raiding come with the most risk? What constitutes risk? Why cant other features of the game ever be just as risky or more risky?
- Why is it that raiding has been so far implemented as the only true endgame? What does it bring to the game that causes every development team lean that way? Can these issues be solved through other end game options?
- Raiding in theory is logistically much more difficult, but in reality much easier than grouping. The vast majority of groups are generally pug while raids are generally planned events. Finishing a group dungeon probably has a lower success rate than finishing a raid.
- Raids generally start in one night and end in one night, questing/progeny/leveling/group dungeon crawl would all require more time spent.
- Almost no risk in raiding, every class is available in a raid generally so rez and corpse rot are not even a worry. If one person leaves a raid it generally won't disturb a raid usually there are subs where as one person leaving a pug might mean gameover
- Well it certainly doesn't have to be, but your options might be somewhat limited because the end game of any game is always going to be the same thing, GRINDING. I can only assume that grinding raid mobs seemed better than grinding fish so they threw all the best items on raid mobs to force us to do that. Later they started AA which was level grinding.
vjek said:Enitzu said:... So what do you guys feel is the "best" way to handle end game content? What do you want to log on every day to do? Be precise if possible and cite examples where you can....
LDON. With even more specificity and customization for all aspects of a character, including every stat, resist, spell / skill, everything. Group content with varying degrees of difficulty, up to and including "nigh impossible" mode.
That's how you let characters experience tangible daily personal progress, which keeps them playing ~forever.
I can agree but this is also not likely. This would require instancing which most are against.
geatz said:- Raiding in theory is logistically much more difficult, but in reality much easier than grouping. The vast majority of groups are generally pug while raids are generally planned events. Finishing a group dungeon probably has a lower success rate than finishing a raid.
- Raids generally start in one night and end in one night, questing/progeny/leveling/group dungeon crawl would all require more time spent.
- Almost no risk in raiding, every class is available in a raid generally so rez and corpse rot are not even a worry. If one person leaves a raid it generally won't disturb a raid usually there are subs where as one person leaving a pug might mean gameover
- Well it certainly doesn't have to be, but your options might be somewhat limited because the end game of any game is always going to be the same thing, GRINDING. I can only assume that grinding raid mobs seemed better than grinding fish so they threw all the best items on raid mobs to force us to do that. Later they started AA which was level grinding.
- Completely disagree. Rarely have I ever been in a pug dungeon group that failed to do what they set out to do. Dungeons have not been difficult in any game to date. Hell even the mythic+ that is supposed to be the "challenging" ones weren't. Raids however do fail, a lot. Go ask any high end guild in any game if they wipe alot.
- Raids are designed that way. Questing/leveling/progeny (same as leveling since thats all it is) is the content that you do from 1-50 so yea ofc it is a bigger part of the game. If that's all you want to do then why even be in the conversation? You have what you want, infinite questing and leveling via progeny.
- This one here, honestly dumbfounded at this belief. No risk .. So all the people on these forums that can recall their stories from the nightmare CR runs at 3am trying to get corpses from Plane of Fear are all just a bunch of liars? I have personally known more than 1 who has lost their corpse in early EQ because they couldn't take the time or find people to help with CR's. Knew people who quit the game because they fell in the hole and couldn't get the corpse back. I'm all for listening to alternatives ways to do things but at least think about what you say before you say it.
Edit - Here's a link to the wipe counter for WoW's last tier of the previous expansion. https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comments/3e2mry/methods_hfc_wipe_counter/ just to show you that there is risk. Every time you pull a boss you risk the wipe. You risk the hours of CRs. You risk losing everything. To say that doesn't exist is simply because you refuse to accept the truth
Are we looking at it backwards?
Biggest baddest enemies in the game had the best stuff. Was Nagafen meant to be fought at launch with just one group? Remember a lot of what went down in EQ was not originally planned by the developers but from player ingenuity. I just can't see the absolute best stuff not dropping from the absolute baddest enemies, epic quests excepted. I mean according to the movie, Smeagol got the ring in the first place because he was stronger than the other guy. So if a bad monster has an item of immense power, wouldn't other meaner monsters try and take it from him?
I will add that I'd like to see more than one epic quest line for each class. Weapon is obvious, but what about a shield for a Paladin, or a head dress for a shaman, Helm for a warrior, tome for a wizard, etc...
Enitzu said: ...I can agree but this is also not likely. This would require instancing which most are against. ...
The LDON progression / gear system can be done entirely without instances. You just put the content, goals and widgets out in the open world. It can be as easy as kill in halnir caves until you get a temporary-unique key, use that key and it opens a one-way wing inside halnir caves that only one group can be in at a time. You could even make it so the key only lasts while you're in the dungeon, and only for a few minutes.
As far as lore & context, all you need are a few organizations or NPC guilds willing to offer the same gear and augments. You could even incorporate it into the four roles (tank, healer, dps, CC) for guilds ( fighter's guild, priest guild, thieves guild, wizard tower, etc) if you were inclined, as these would likely have representation in each home city where those roles/classes are permitted.
vjek said:Enitzu said: ...I can agree but this is also not likely. This would require instancing which most are against. ...
The LDON progression / gear system can be done entirely without instances. You just put the content, goals and widgets out in the open world. It can be as easy as kill in halnir caves until you get a temporary-unique key, use that key and it opens a one-way wing inside halnir caves that only one group can be in at a time. You could even make it so the key only lasts while you're in the dungeon, and only for a few minutes.
As far as lore & context, all you need are a few organizations or NPC guilds willing to offer the same gear and augments. You could even incorporate it into the four roles (tank, healer, dps, CC) for guilds ( fighter's guild, priest guild, thieves guild, wizard tower, etc) if you were inclined, as these would likely have representation in each home city where those roles/classes are permitted.
The problem with this is that you would be against hundreds of other groups trying to do this. If only 1 group can be inside at a time then you'd pretty much always be waiting to get in. It really isn't a great idea without wasting a lot of time and no instancing.
Iksar said:Megaera said: In an 100% open world game you can't really have dungeons.... unless VR decides to put in instances for smaller guilds or people to do theese, it will be impossible to keep,just 6 people from doing it.
In the most recent podcast I believe they said they are thinking of ways to combat this. Making some bosses either flee if you try to zerg them, call in reinforcements, etc. Maybe it's a stretch but I imagine it could include the boss expelling those not in the group of whomever triggered/engaged him and locking the room.
If that is what happens then they are effectively killing the DPS racing. It would be a "whoever tags it first" thing. Would be a lose/lose situation.
First off I like the title and theme of the thread. Because most time people say Raiding instead of endgame and Raiding is too specific for my tastes.
Also it seems some are alluding to the point of the game being Raiding. When the devs have stated quite clearly the point of the game is Grouping! And have said that solo and Raid would be the exception not the rule. So with group content being professed to be the most important aspect of the game, if we are going to talk about what "logically" should be the penacle of challenge and reward, then it sounds like group content would clearly be the winner. This is based on what the devs have said. But the point is not Raiding although it will exist.
As for some of the responses justifying Raids as offering best challenge and best gear, I think some of the thinking is a bit faulty. We are all free to express our point of view, but using arguments like Raiding is logically this or that and should therefore offer the best gear in most cases just isnt factual. Its opinion. I also saw where the example of fishing would be fine to reward a fishing pole but not a badass breast plate, because it doesnt make sense? But killing a dragon and getting one does make sense? They both are equal in not making sense in my mind. Im not necessarily saying one way or another but just pointing out you cant really justify one over the other for providing a BiS breast plate except through personal preference.
Ive said it in another thread, but I want to see a fairly even split of best rewards over several seperate but challenging endgame activities. And could most easily divide these into raiding, epic crafting, epic faction quests, epic group content, epic class quests, and a few Ultimate Epic quests that are a combination of all the above and more. This could be dont in e few ways. Could randomly assign different gear to different activities. Could seperate it by lore. Could assign certain slots to certain activites for simplicity.
As for my most favorite form of endgame? That is easy!!!! FFXI's Sky and Sea. Simply the most fun I have ever had in multiple group content. Sky and Sea were open world zones with multiple bosses. Some were contested bosses that dropped trigger items. The others were the bosses you triggered with the items (usually a pair). The beauty of the system was it was all open world. But combined the thrill of racing between contested mobs to get the dropped trigger items. With non-contested Bosses that you could schedule. All in an open world environment that was dangerous (even trash mobs) and very large (enough content so that everyone couldnt be everywhere but not so little there wasnt competition). Drop rates were low. Kind of worked like having lockouts, only not having lockouts.
Amsai said:As for some of the responses justifying Raids as offering best challenge and best gear, I think some of the thinking is a bit faulty. We are all free to express our point of view, but using arguments like Raiding is logically this or that and should therefore offer the best gear in most cases just isnt factual. Its opinion. I also saw where the example of fishing would be fine to reward a fishing pole but not a badass breast plate, because it doesnt make sense? But killing a dragon and getting one does make sense? They both are equal in not making sense in my mind. Im not necessarily saying one way or another but just pointing out you cant really justify one over the other for providing a BiS breast plate except through personal preference.
Ive said it in another thread, but I want to see a fairly even split of best rewards over several seperate but challenging endgame activities. And could most easily divide these into raiding, epic crafting, epic faction quests, epic group content, epic class quests, and a few Ultimate Epic quests that are a combination of all the above and more. This could be dont in e few ways. Could randomly assign different gear to different activities. Could seperate it by lore. Could assign certain slots to certain activites for simplicity.
Well the dragon dropping a chestplate makes a whole lot more sense to me than a fish does. The dragon could have eaten someone else and we find the chestplate that wouldn't digest in his system. The chestplate however is 4-5 times larger than said fish.
Also are you saying that raiding isn't harder than grouping? As someone who came from FFXI, what content was more difficult, Dynamis or HNMs? Keep in mind I didn't play XI for very long military commitments. So anything after chains of promethia I have no clue about. But I do know that I could easily solo most Dynamis, some duo.
Enitzu said: ... The problem with this is that you would be against hundreds of other groups trying to do this. If only 1 group can be inside at a time then you'd pretty much always be waiting to get in. It really isn't a great idea without wasting a lot of time and no instancing.
Not if there are dozens of dungeons with dozens of keyed doors/wings. Then it's simply a matter of scale.
I agree that instancing is a convenient option, but it can be done without, if desired.
And it's not as though an LDON gear customization/progression system simply couldn't be everywhere. It doesn't have to only be in the keyed areas, those could just be 'special' in some way. (higher LDON related widget drop rates, for example)
What I personally would like to see as the source of best gear in the game are the long quest lines similar to Coldain Ring and Prayer Shawl Quests in EQ. These were multistage quests, each part was different and relied on different aspects of the game.. exploration, camping rare mobs, harvesting, grouping, crafting, factioning, raiding.. literally ALL. The quest line spanned through out your leveling. You can start it at early levels and get new rewards as you progress. For those levels each reward was great and last rewards were "epic" at endgame. These quest lines truly felt epic and gave me exactly what I’m looking for from the endgame.. immersion and sense of accomplishment.
I agree that the long epic quests are great and should be a part of the game but not sure how I feel about having too many of them. For instance the Coldain shawl while a great item, wasn't all that hard to get if you had friends or money. If they are going to put these types of things into the game then it needs to be a requirement for each person to do it themselves rather than being able to have someone else make it and trade the items. Also while on the topic of trading, please don't allow MQ's.
Enitzu said:If that is what happens then they are effectively killing the DPS racing. It would be a "whoever tags it first" thing. Would be a lose/lose situation.
Ask yourself: Why do I care where the best gear comes from?
If the answer is a status or ego thing, then I submit that you're playing for the wrong reasons. Try being motivated by the journey instead of the destination. Rewards are nice, but play to have fun. Fun should not depend on being better than other people. It's not zero-sum.
If the answer is: "I like X, so I want everybody else to value it too," then I suggest not worrying about it because I'm sure enough people will enjoy your thing. You can still have fun.
If you're worried that people won't like you unless your numbers are bigger than average, then maybe you care about the wrong people's opinions.
If the answer is anything else, then I'd love to hear what it is.
Iksar said:Enitzu said:If that is what happens then they are effectively killing the DPS racing. It would be a "whoever tags it first" thing. Would be a lose/lose situation.
If by DPS racing you mean multiple groups racing to do the most damage (a zerg) then I think it is a VERY good/healthy think for the community to kill off. Even back in EQ I remember maybe one time a group tried to do this to push another out of a camp. Respecting other's camps was a pilar of the game system/community working smoothly.
Oh I agree with you. However, many on these forums will not. I think the whole concept of the DPS race is asking for a ton of problems and animosity amongst the community.
Gnog said: I agree with Enitzu re: preventing MQ'ing if epic-type quests will be in the game. Allowing MQ'ing always seemed like a bug rather than an intentional design. Allowing MQ'ing can lead to some pretty awful content denial, as farmers monopolize quest mobs to sell them to people actually doing the quest.
Completely agree here. It made things like the jboots quest a complete nightmare to do because people would lock it down and sell the MQ.
Enitzu I see you listed Dynamis but did not describe it. It is the perfect counter-example to traditional raiding in my opinion, for a variety of reasons. Let me describe my adapted vision of it so we have some basis for debate:
Dynamis consisted of a series of tiered zones gated by completing some story mode group content of easy-medium difficulty that could be completed as you levelled up [Edit: these zones were tiered mainly for the purpose of story progression, the actual "level" of the loot was unchanged, and a full set of gear would have required stuff from each zone out of the 5. Such a set would not be considered BiS, only several pieces depending on context]. These zones were fully realized nightmare versions of existing zones. Let's use "Nightmare Kingsreach" as our hypothetical Pantheon name. In the nightmare you would have large packs of monsters just roaming around. The grunt monsters had a low (5%) chance each of dropping a piece of gear from a loot table unique to that zone, while sergeant and lieutenant level monsters would have slightly higher chances to drop but were commensurately more difficult. The zone boss dropped some currency used to upgrade weapons, but generally people only really needed to kill him for the purposes of beating the zone to unlock other ones. Typically groups would just farm, going in with as many people as they had/as many as was efficient.
I think such content is very easy to implement. Because loot is not guaranteed, a group need not bring as many people as they possibly could, but only as many as they wished. Because the monsters are universally several times more difficult than the average exp monster, with sergeants and lieutenants being much more difficult, the group can be stealthy and pick and choose their targets. Say that you have some meta-objectives, like you must touch these 3 orbs in the zone to pop certain lieutenants, or perhaps you only have so much time in the zone before being kicked out unless you hit time extensions, whatever. The final boss of the zone doesn't even need to drop anything, it could literally just be there to unlock other zones in the next tier.
That's just one example that doesn't require something as vulgar as a distinction between "group" and "raid". You simply bring as many as you wish depending on what you're going for, pick your farm zone and go. I see no reason why the disgusting focus on boss rushing of modern raiding is inherently superior in any way.
edit: and to answer the question you posed to Amsai earlier: yes Dynamis was a wildly superior form of content to HNMs. Anybody who thought Dynamis Diabolos or Angra Mainyu or Dynamis Lord were easier than the average boss is just being obtuse. People killed Aspid/KB/Nidhogg/Jorm/Tiamat/Khim/Vrtra with 5-7 people in my linkshell on one server alone, and we were by no means the best LS of all time. Nobody killed DL at 75 cap with fewer than 12-15.