Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

End Game Discussion (Raiding and Alternatives)

    • 556 posts
    January 20, 2017 7:52 AM PST

    Making this thread primary due to the multiple instances where a thread of a different topic forks off into a discussion concerning end game. While there are some threads on raiding, most of them are talking about raiding being done pre end game. 

    Would like to see what others consider as "End Game". We all know raiding has become the staple of most end game content. However, many games have begun to try and break away from that. WoW's mythic+ dungeons some say are a successful way to do so. FFXI had things like Dynamis. FFXIV, well sorry this is just pretty much super casual imo although their 8 mans can be challenging and fun. So what do you guys feel is the "best" way to handle end game content? What do you want to log on every day to do? Be precise if possible and cite examples where you can.

    Let's try to keep this discussion civil and remember that your ideas are not right or wrong. Everyone is entitled to their opinions. We are here simply to help give ideas to the Devs so we can make the best game for every one of us. 

    --------------------------------------------------

    For me, raiding is end game. The reason I play MMOs is to raid. The feeling of bringing together large numbers of people, coordinating them to work as a team, and coming up with strategies to defeat bosses is fun to me. Now some say you can get that same feeling doing 6 man content because it's just as hard. To you I say, sorry but no it's not. A 6 man dungeon can not ever be as hard as a 24+ man raid. In a raid the devs can expect you to have at least 1 of each class. They can provide mechanics that may require a class. They can go outside the box and throw things at you that no 6 man could ever handle. Should all BiS loot come from raid content? No it shouldn't. But a lot of it should. The risk has to equal the reward. There has to be a good incentive to form the raids other than bragging rights. 

    Now none of us that do raid, raid every day. So having fun alternatives that provide similar reward and challenge also need to be a part of the end game process. Multiple dungeons, hopefully very large dungeons, with many named, quests, factions, etc all provide meaningful ways to progress your character. One thing I do truly love so far about Pantheon is the perception system. This means that we will have to explore everything and check everywhere because you never know what small artifact found in the deepest recesses of a cavern may lead to. I know that probably by the end of beta (if beta is not capped, if it is then 2-3 months after launch) majority of the quests will be documented and able to be searched. Wish that wasn't the case but it is what it is. Even when raiding may provide most of the best items, dungeons will provide items that you will require prior to the raids. They will provide spells/abilities, resist gear, relics, etc. so we will have plenty to do for a long time. 

    Crafting should also be a apart of end game. Albeit a smaller part imo. I don't feel that crafting should provide raid equvilant gearing unless it requires raiding to obtain materials and a deep understanding of the craft. Maybe in order to craft raid level stuff the crafter should have to do an epic crafting quest kind of thing to learn the ways of handling the materials. I don't want to say crafting shouldn't be relevant because that isn't the case. I just want to make sure that the reward is equal to the risk involved. 

    • 38 posts
    January 20, 2017 8:10 AM PST

    Enitzu said:

    A 6 man dungeon can not ever be as hard as a 24+ man raid.

    This is the core of the issue in your point of view.  Its literally and logically wrong.  You can make a 6 man dungeon that would take years of planning and hard work to beat by top 1% of players, after they have already beaten every raid mob and gained every piece of raid gear.  And at the same time you can make raid content accessible to anyone mid to high level and easily beatable as long as you have an "ok" group of people.

    Raiding was never rewarded with best gear because its the most difficult thing in the game.  Its rewarded because of social benefit it bring to the game.  Soloing some group content could be often harder than raiding (if possible at all), you dont see soloers claim that they "deserve" the best gear in the game.  

     


    This post was edited by moszis at January 20, 2017 8:16 AM PST
    • 556 posts
    January 20, 2017 8:17 AM PST

    moszis said:

    Enitzu said:

    A 6 man dungeon can not ever be as hard as a 24+ man raid.

    This is the core of the issue in your point of view.  Its literally and logically wrong.  You can make a 6 man dungeon that would take years of planning and hard work to beat by top 1% of players, after they have already beaten every raid mob and gained every piece of raid gear.  And at the same time you can make raid content accessible to anyone mid to high level and easily beatable as long as you have an "ok" group of people.

     

    While I can conceed that it maybe possible, that's very wishful thinking. 6 man dungeons would have to adhear to basics meaning that every group is expected to consist of 1 tank, 3 dps, 1 healer, 1 cc/utility. So at some point that dungeon is going to end up with a set group comp that it will take to beat it in current gear. The second that happens, you just alienated half your playerbase. Making a small dungeon really tough to beat is incredibly hard to do without alienating classes. This is the same reason that WoW's mythic+ has failed imo. See for yourself, go look up the top runs in mythic+. You will see that the large majority of them run with demon hunters, hunters, mages, monks for dps. Reason is because they all output high aoe dps and aoe stuns. It's the same reason that a lot of groups run with shaman healers, so they can have a lust while filling the dps with 2 DHs and a hunter/monk. It devolves from a good idea to a needed comp to complete.

    moszis said:

    Raiding was never rewarded with best gear because its the most difficult thing in the game.  Its rewarded because of social benefit it bring to the game.  Soloing some group content could be often harder than raiding (if possible at all), you dont see soloers claim that they "deserve" the best gear in the game.  

     

    Completely disagree here. Raiding has always been the most difficult thing in every game. If you think otherwise then it's simply because you were never a leader involved in it. Coordinating and leading a guild is a full time job. Doing so at a high end pace is even harder because you have to do things that no one else has done so the following a layout/video isn't an option. Recruiting for said guild is another non stop issue. Logistically, keeping a raiding guild going can be a nightmare. 

    I don't know if you raid or at what level but if you've played WoW (or any MMO really other than Vanilla EQ) then it's pretty easy to see how different the raids and everything else are. Mythic raids take a long time for people to get past. Hell more than 90% of the playerbase won't even clear half of it. Top guilds take upwards of 700 wipes to kill 1 boss. But that's equal to a dungeon I can put together and run in under 30 minutes? Not sure we are on the same page here. 


    This post was edited by Enitzu at January 20, 2017 8:26 AM PST
    • 38 posts
    January 20, 2017 8:21 AM PST

    Enitzu said:

    While I can conceed that it maybe possible, that's very wishful thinking. 6 man dungeons would have to adhear to basics meaning that every group is expected to consist of 1 tank, 3 dps, 1 healer, 1 cc/utility. So at some point that dungeon is going to end up with a set group comp that it will take to beat it in current gear. The second that happens, you just alienated half your playerbase. Making a small dungeon really tough to beat is incredibly hard to do without alienating classes. This is the same reason that WoW's mythic+ has failed imo. See for yourself, go look up the top runs in mythic+. You will see that the large majority of them run with demon hunters, hunters, mages, monks for dps. Reason is because they all output high aoe dps and aoe stuns. It's the same reason that a lot of groups run with shaman healers, so they can have a lust while filling the dps with 2 DHs and a hunter/monk. It devolves from a good idea to a needed comp to complete.

    All true.. within specific context.  You can create those "special" dungeons for different class combinations.  The issue here is not a specific example but assumption that raiding is and must be the ONLY endgame, rewarded with endgame rewards.  I can think of many different endgame paths that would have similar difficulties and would deserve appropriate rewards.


    This post was edited by moszis at January 20, 2017 8:21 AM PST
    • 556 posts
    January 20, 2017 8:28 AM PST

    moszis said:

    All true.. within specific context.  You can create those "special" dungeons for different class combinations.  The issue here is not a specific example but assumption that raiding is and must be the ONLY endgame, rewarded with endgame rewards.  I can think of many different endgame paths that would have similar difficulties and would deserve appropriate rewards.

    Ok. I'll bite. Give me an example of what you would do. Be precise if possible. I'm not arguing that there are multiple paths to end game and not everyone enjoys raiding but to say that you can come up with something that equals the difficulty of high end raiding, well you'll have to show some type of proof on that one because I haven't seen it in my 20 years of MMO gaming.

    • 323 posts
    January 20, 2017 8:30 AM PST
    In talking about "six-man" or "24-man" content, you are missing a fundamental tenet of PRF. PRF will generally not have instanced dungeons. You need to rethink all of your arguments on this topic for a non-instanced world.

    • 556 posts
    January 20, 2017 8:36 AM PST

    Gnog said: In talking about "six-man" or "24-man" content, you are missing a fundamental tenet of PRF. PRF will generally not have instanced dungeons. You need to rethink all of your arguments on this topic for a non-instanced world.

    6 man is the size of a group. Most of us on these forums use 24+ when talking about raids because it hasn't been decided on the set number. However, having a cap on them is a much more prefered method. The reason vanilla EQ raiding was so utterly boring was the fact that you could essentially kill the dragons with 25 people yet raid sizes were 72. So you ended up having way more people than needed which trivialized the content. You can't have difficult content without having a number to tune them for. This makes no difference whether it's open world or instanced. Same rules apply

    • 3852 posts
    January 20, 2017 8:37 AM PST

    My thoughts on endgame activities focus on two things. Firstly, what I truly dislike are raids/dungeons where the challenge is the mechanics not the enemies. FFXIV is absolutely notorious for this. Starting well before endgame you need to plow through so many boss fights where if you are not on pixel A at precisely the right time and in the right sequence you die. Gear doesn't matter, enemies don't matter, there is no saving throw or resistance - if you don't know the mechanics and follow them precisely you die. I far, far prefer very difficult enemies where the adds may kill you, the aoe may kill you, having the healer mezzed at a bad time may kill you, many other things may kill you, but these are combat mechanics following the same rules that the game applies to all combat. You don't need to be puppets following your scripted path precisely or you fail. Oddly enough this is probably a mainstream opinion here - I promise I'll go back to being contrarian as soon as I can.

    Secondly I am a firm believer in the Rift approach (not that Rift is unique) - the more things you can do at endgame level the better. Rift has dungeons and raids to be sure, but as of when I played last it had quite a few other things that a level-capped character could do. Hunt rifts after one expansion, nightmare rifts after another to name two. Soloable quests/activities to let a new level-cap get better gear to help her survive high level dungeons and raids better (perhaps too much of this for a game like Pantheon since Rift let you get real raid gear doing easily soloable activities if you took the time - better would be to cap the gear you get get doing such things at starter endgame levels not tier 2 raid levels as Rift did).

    • 38 posts
    January 20, 2017 8:44 AM PST

    Enitzu said:

    Ok. I'll bite. Give me an example of what you would do. Be precise if possible. I'm not arguing that there are multiple paths to end game and not everyone enjoys raiding but to say that you can come up with something that equals the difficulty of high end raiding, well you'll have to show some type of proof on that one because I haven't seen it in my 20 years of MMO gaming.

    You haven't seen it because raiding has a social benefit to the game that is being rewarded, not its difficulty.  Raiding is easy to implement relative to other endgame content and it keeps the game healthy.  I think that point of view is outdated and can be solved in modern times.

    Some ideas:

     - Long, epic like quests for endgame gear.  Something similar to "ring event" quest lines in EQ.  Which btw was my favorite part of the game.  Yes, I know end part of ring event was similar to a raid, but it does not have to be.

     - Extremely difficult group context designed as alternate to raiding.  I dont see why I need to explain why this is possible.  To think this is impossible, is being irrational.

     - "Progeny" type system that is being discussed in a different thread.  Where you have to re-level your character from the start for a small bonus to stats.   The "difficulty" may not have to come from how hard it is to accomplish something but the time you need to put in.  Which is btw how raids are rewarded.. they are not difficult, just time consuming.

     - Solo challenges designed for a specific class.  Yes I’m aware this is a bad idea as we want to have a great social game, but it certainly can be the hardest part of the game.

     - Fishing.. if you can catch X number of super rare, impossible to catch gold fish, which usually takes a YEAR of real time, you deserve a good reward.  Why ta hell not?  

    No need to continue after that last one.  It should make my point.


    This post was edited by moszis at January 20, 2017 8:47 AM PST
    • 556 posts
    January 20, 2017 8:45 AM PST

    dorotea said:

    My thoughts on endgame activities focus on two things. Firstly, what I truly dislike are raids/dungeons where the challenge is the mechanics not the enemies. FFXIV is absolutely notorious for this. Starting well before endgame you need to plow through so many boss fights where if you are not on pixel A at precisely the right time and in the right sequence you die. Gear doesn't matter, enemies don't matter, there is no saving throw or resistance - if you don't know the mechanics and follow them precisely you die. 

    Lol Titan Hm at launch with the lag ... /wrists lmao. We actually recorded it many times where we were 10 ft out of the telegraph and still got knocked off. 

    https://youtu.be/Tek00rSir-E?t=42 - not us but prime example lol.

    • 60 posts
    January 20, 2017 8:52 AM PST

    I'm used to being a raider in end game but I am also a completionist so I always find other little things to do such as maxing all my repuation out with different factions, collecting items, farming gold to buy all mounts/cosmetics, etc. 

    You mentioned that people who raid don't always raid every time their online but this is only true because mmo raids in the past decade have been so easy that even semi-casual guilds clear it in less than a month. I come from hardcore raider background and back in the good ol days I used to raid 6 times a week, sometimes the full 7. Why? Because the raid content was either very tough or because there was not enough items dropped to gear up the raid needed to progress so we had to farm the bosses we already downed multiple times in order to move onto the next(this sounds bad/boring but it makes even average-semi-hard bosses last way longer and keeps players progressing and interested). 


    This post was edited by Stephen at January 20, 2017 8:54 AM PST
    • 323 posts
    January 20, 2017 8:55 AM PST
    My point is that if you put raid-quality content in "six-man" dungeons or encounters, then you need also to consider that larger groups (12, 16, whatever) will just Zerg that content, unless you have some instance-like gating to restrict the size of the group. So I don't think it will make sense to have raid-quality loot drop from mobs that can be killed by a smaller force (such as 1 group) unless the loot is ultra rare. If the raid-quality loot drops from group content as an ultra rare spawn, that would be fine.

    I generally think that putting all the best loot in raid content makes the game feel more like a theme park. Who cares if the questing and leveling systems are not on train tracks if the best loot in the game is all found on a collection of raid bosses? The whole game just becomes a grind toward raiding. That would be a shame. BiS loot should come from a combination of raiding, ultra-rare group drops, and crafting (perhaps w rare mats). It's no problem if raiding is the most reliable way to get BiS loot, but if it's the only way, the game will feel more one dimensional.
    • 556 posts
    January 20, 2017 8:55 AM PST

    moszis said:

    Enitzu said:

    Ok. I'll bite. Give me an example of what you would do. Be precise if possible. I'm not arguing that there are multiple paths to end game and not everyone enjoys raiding but to say that you can come up with something that equals the difficulty of high end raiding, well you'll have to show some type of proof on that one because I haven't seen it in my 20 years of MMO gaming.

    You haven't seen it because raiding has a social benefit to the game that is being rewarded, not its difficulty.  Raiding is easy to implement relative to other endgame content and it keeps the game healthy.  I think that point of view is outdated and can be solved in modern times.

    Some ideas:

     - Long, epic like quests for endgame gear.  Something similar to "ring event" quest lines in EQ.  Which btw was my favorite part of the game.  Yes, I know end part of ring event was similar to a raid, but it does not have to be.

     - Extremely difficult group context designed as alternate to raiding.  I dont see why I need to explain why this is possible.  To think this is impossible just being irrational.

     - "Progeny" type system that is being discussed in a different thread.  Where you have to re-level your character from the start for a small bonus to stats.   The "difficulty" may not have to come from how hard it is to accomplish something but the time you need to put in.  Which is btw how raids are rewarded.. they are not difficult, just time consuming.

     - Solo challenges designed for a specific class.  Yes I’m aware this is a bad idea as we want to have a great social game, but it certainly can be the hardest part of the game.

     - Fishing.. if you can catch X number of super rare, impossible to catch gold fish, which usually takes a YEAR of real time, you deserve a good reward.  Why ta hell not?  

    No need to continue after that last one.  It should make my point.

    - I agree with the epic questlines. They are great and I really hope we see quite a few of them. Hell even a long standing class questline would work. No arguments from me here.

    - I understand what you mean by it but there are so many possible pitfalls to this that it could be just as bad as it could be good. Making small group content really difficult isn't a walk in the park like you seem to think. Especially when every class in this game is unique.

    - So you want to provide stat increases to progenies? Basically you are saying you want the entire game to be leveling? So many people have already voiced that they don't even like the system because it forces them to basically delete their work.

    - Solo challenges in a group centric game where soloing is next to not happening? This would mean that classes like summoners, necros, etc would have tremendous advantages over every other class. Tanks could practically forget it. Again you are alienating most of the playerbase here. 

    - Fishing. Ok sure. If you want an epic fishing quest that rewards an epic fishing pole, why not. But if you are trying to say that collecting 100 rare fish should reward you with 'bad azz chestplate' then no. How is getting BiS gear even related to fishing? Something you can do solo without any threat of anything at all. 

     

    I'm really trying to see your points here but you aren't thinking about anyone else. Yes some of these could come into play, if this was a solo friendly game. It's not. You are meant to level from 1+ with other people. So tieing anything to solo ability is completely wrong here.

    • 38 posts
    January 20, 2017 8:59 AM PST

    Enitzu I have a question for you.. 

     

    Do you understand that what you are suggesting is not that raiders get the best gear in the game but that raiding is the only way to get best gear in the game?  By this you insist that everyone must raid and that you insist on raiding with people who hate raiding?  That makes no sense to me.  Its like liking Chinese food and insisting that everyone else in the world eats only Chinese food?  How does that benefit you?  It just makes Chinese food much much more expensive, of less quality and creates epic lines to buy Chinese food.  You are hurting yourself and other raiders with such belief.

    • 556 posts
    January 20, 2017 9:03 AM PST

    Stephen said:

    I'm used to being a raider in end game but I am also a completionist so I always find other little things to do such as maxing all my repuation out with different factions, collecting items, farming gold to buy all mounts/cosmetics, etc. 

    You mentioned that people who raid don't always raid every time their online but this is only true because mmo raids in the past decade have been so easy that even semi-casual guilds clear it in less than a month. I come from hardcore raider background and back in the good ol days I used to raid 6 times a week, sometimes the full 7. Why? Because the raid content was either very tough or because there was not enough items dropped to gear up the raid needed to progress so we had to farm the bosses we already downed multiple times in order to move onto the next(this sounds bad/boring but it makes even average-semi-hard bosses last way longer and keeps players progressing and interested). 

    As do I sir. I've been in world 1st guilds in 3 different games now. And while I have done the 7 days a week 8+ hours a day during progression before, It's very few and far between that that happens. Even with new content you usually only do at most 5 days. Now with a game like this, the schedule will largely depend on how things play out. If things follow the EQ style then raiding will be dependant on available targets and spawn times. If things become schedulable due to lock outs or whatever, then raiding will depend on the time it takes to down bosses and the number of bosses. Can't really say the need will be there to raid even 5 days a week.

    Gnog said: My point is that if you put raid-quality content in "six-man" dungeons or encounters, then you need also to consider that larger groups (12, 16, whatever) will just Zerg that content, unless you have some instance-like gating to restrict the size of the group. So I don't think it will make sense to have raid-quality loot drop from mobs that can be killed by a smaller force (such as 1 group) unless the loot is ultra rare. If the raid-quality loot drops from group content as an ultra rare spawn, that would be fine. I generally think that putting all the best loot in raid content makes the game feel more like a theme park. Who cares if the questing and leveling systems are not on train tracks if the best loot in the game is all found on a collection of raid bosses? The whole game just becomes a grind toward raiding. That would be a shame. BiS loot should come from a combination of raiding, ultra-rare group drops, and crafting (perhaps w rare mats). It's no problem if raiding is the most reliable way to get BiS loot, but if it's the only way, the game will feel more one dimensional.

    I see what you mean and I agree. Giving raid level loot in a 6 man without some type of a block would allow for zerging, trivilazing the content. 

    I don't think or want all loot coming from raiding. The whole reason I made the thread is so we can come up with alternative ideas that may work to provide other ways of progression. 

    moszis said:

    Enitzu I have a question for you.. 

     

    Do you understand that what you are suggesting is not that raiders get the best gear in the game but that raiding is the only way to get best gear in the game?  By this you insist that everyone must raid and that you insist on raiding with people who hate raiding?  That makes no sense to me.  Its like liking Chinese food and insisting that everyone else in the world eats only Chinese food?  How does that benefit you?  It just makes Chinese food much much more expensive, of less quality and creates epic lines to buy Chinese food.  You are hurting yourself and other raiders with such belief.

    That's not what I am suggesting at all. I am suggesting that there needs to be more than just 1 way to get relevant loot. Raid gear maybe slightly better but would realistically not be the only path to take. But what I am not going to do is advocate to change the basis of the game entirely. Some of the ideas you are providing do exactly that. You're trying to take a game that is designed around grouping from lvl 1-50 and saying well thats over with so now I can go solo X content to gear myself. That completely throws out the tenants of the game.

     


    This post was edited by Enitzu at January 20, 2017 9:15 AM PST
    • 38 posts
    January 20, 2017 9:04 AM PST

    Enitzu said:

    - I agree with the epic questlines. They are great and I really hope we see quite a few of them. Hell even a long standing class questline would work. No arguments from me here.

    - I understand what you mean by it but there are so many possible pitfalls to this that it could be just as bad as it could be good. Making small group content really difficult isn't a walk in the park like you seem to think. Especially when every class in this game is unique.

    - So you want to provide stat increases to progenies? Basically you are saying you want the entire game to be leveling? So many people have already voiced that they don't even like the system because it forces them to basically delete their work.

    - Solo challenges in a group centric game where soloing is next to not happening? This would mean that classes like summoners, necros, etc would have tremendous advantages over every other class. Tanks could practically forget it. Again you are alienating most of the playerbase here. 

    - Fishing. Ok sure. If you want an epic fishing quest that rewards an epic fishing pole, why not. But if you are trying to say that collecting 100 rare fish should reward you with 'bad azz chestplate' then no. How is getting BiS gear even related to fishing? Something you can do solo without any threat of anything at all. 

     

    I'm really trying to see your points here but you aren't thinking about anyone else. Yes some of these could come into play, if this was a solo friendly game. It's not. You are meant to level from 1+ with other people. So tieing anything to solo ability is completely wrong here.

     

    All you had to do is agree to one of my points for my argument to be valid.  I provided a variety for that reason.  I dont agree with all my points either, just general idea of multiple endgame options.

    • 323 posts
    January 20, 2017 9:05 AM PST
    Regarding the fishing example above, maybe you can't fish up a breastplate, but why not a ring or an earring, or a rare fish the oil from which is required to make a BiS pair of leather gloves, or whatever.

    • 38 posts
    January 20, 2017 9:08 AM PST

    Gnog said: Regarding the fishing example above, maybe you can't fish up a breastplate, but why not a ring or an earring, or a rare fish the oil from which is required to make a BiS pair of leather gloves, or whatever.

    Or maybe you are doing a fishing quest for someone that rewards you with a breastplate :)

    • 556 posts
    January 20, 2017 9:18 AM PST

    Gnog said: Regarding the fishing example above, maybe you can't fish up a breastplate, but why not a ring or an earring, or a rare fish the oil from which is required to make a BiS pair of leather gloves, or whatever.

    Totally open to things like this. This opens up ultra rare RNG type things. Question is, should this possibility be near to BiS quality gear? The risk really isn't there at all. Yes it's a time investment and does deserve a good reward but it could be something like the fishbone earring and still say its worth it. 

    • 105 posts
    January 20, 2017 9:28 AM PST

     

    - So you want to provide stat increases to progenies? Basically you are saying you want the entire game to be leveling? So many people have already voiced that they don't even like the system because it forces them to basically delete their work.

              Systems like this worked great in games like Shining Force, why wouldn't it work here.

    - Solo challenges in a group centric game where soloing is next to not happening? This would mean that classes like summoners, necros, etc would have tremendous advantages over every other class. Tanks could practically forget it. Again you are alienating most of the playerbase here. 

       How is a mage going to find random roaming spawns in a huge zone, I think a ranger or druid with tracking abilites would have a huge advantage here.  You can design solo encouters to give certain classes advantages or disadvantes.  Tanks have their advantages they have high defense high hitpoints and no real damage mitigator like mana you could easily design solo events that they excel at.

    - Fishing. Ok sure. If you want an epic fishing quest that rewards an epic fishing pole, why not. But if you are trying to say that collecting 100 rare fish should reward you with 'bad azz chestplate' then no. How is getting BiS gear even related to fishing? Something you can do solo without any threat of anything at all. 

    It certainly is time consuming and moves us into different rewards for how you spend your time, I dont think grinding raids is any different than grinding fish.  Some people like fishing to take a break from grouping, I dont but why shouldn't they be rewarded for it, just because they would rather fish than raid.

    • 38 posts
    January 20, 2017 9:30 AM PST

    Lets not turn this into something like a political debate.  Where neither side presents their opinions but rather pre-preprogrammed slogans through indoctrination.   Slogans that they themselves would not believe if put under intellectual scrutiny.

    Without trying to debate the top level point, lets figure out some underlying concepts:

    -      Why is raiding the most difficult part of the game?  Is it really? What makes it inherently the most difficult part of the game regardless of implementation?

    -      Why is raiding the mot time consuming?  Why cant no other activity be more time consuming?

    -      Why does raiding come with the most risk?  What constitutes risk?  Why cant other features of the game ever be just as risky or more risky?

    -      Why is it that raiding has been so far implemented as the only true endgame?  What does it bring to the game that causes every development team lean that way?  Can these issues be solved through other end game options?

    [EDIT] But most important question of all.  What is raiding?  Killing a mob(s) that require more than 6 people?  How does that dramatically differ from grouping?  What makes 7 player mob that much more special than group mob?  Is it all about implementation and not numbers?  Why is it more difficult to kill a 24 man mob with 100 people than it is to kill a 6man mob with 6 people?


    This post was edited by moszis at January 20, 2017 9:40 AM PST
    • 169 posts
    January 20, 2017 9:35 AM PST

    I'm not very big on raiding, but I'm curious how you would institute a raid cap in a non instanced world. Before there were raids people would wander dungeons and fight together without official groups. Even if you had a raid cap people could still come along and participate. Would you add some artificial restrictions to prevent killing mobs if more than a certain number of people are there? I doubt it would work very well.

    • 556 posts
    January 20, 2017 9:48 AM PST

    moszis said:

    Lets not turn this into something like a political debate.  Where neither side presents their opinions but rather pre-preprogrammed slogans through indoctrination.   Slogans that they themselves would not believe if put under intellectual scrutiny.

    Without trying to debate the top level point, lets figure out some underlying concepts:

    -      Why is raiding the most difficult part of the game?  Is it really? What makes it inherently the most difficult part of the game regardless of implementation?

    -      Why is raiding the mot time consuming?  Why cant no other activity be more time consuming?

    -      Why does raiding come with the most risk?  What constitutes risk?  Why cant other features of the game ever be just as risky or more risky?

    -      Why is it that raiding has been so far implemented as the only true endgame?  What does it bring to the game that causes every development team lean that way?  Can these issues be solved through other end game options?

    Nice idea. I'll list my thoughts point by point to yours.

    - Raiding is logistically much more difficult. The number of people required, the strategies involved, coordinating said number of people to do what needs to be done when it needs to be done. It all affects the difficulty. I can agree that not all raids are 'hard' for most people, however having 1-2 people mess something up can mean a wipe that could take hours to recover from.

    - If you ever wiped in Fear then this one is pretty apparent. Raids are generally a lot more time consuming due to fights taking a lot longer, wiping while learning mechanics, possibilities of grueling corpse runs that can take hours. Hell sometime just getting set up for a boss could take 30 minutes or more. Clearing through a zone to get to those bosses can sometimes take hours as well. Other things can and do involve as much time. Hell even your fishing example can be that much of a time sink. But while they are time sinks, there is no risk involved with them.

    - Why does raiding come with the most risk? Um well let's see, you have to rely on x other number of people to do what they are supposed to which we all know doesn't always happen and any 1 of them can mean hours of your time. You have to learn the fight and execute it properly because you can't simply zerg through like you can in most things. And it requires large numbers to do, so if you do fail, that means it requires large numbers to recover from. If you wipe at midnight that could mean none of you are logging till everyone is out. If that means you only get 3 hours of sleep before work, well that's the risk you take. 

    - That's exactly what kind of ideas I am looking for. Other ways to spread out the loot and ways to get loot that are viable and don't downgrade the risk vs reward idea or the tenants of the game. 

    • 19 posts
    January 20, 2017 9:50 AM PST

    EQ didn't have raid caps until I believe Planes of Power.  We had raids that were done with around 20 and then some fights that had over 100.  Raiding wasn't "boring" to me back then.  However to me, it wasn't the hardest thing for me personally.   In another thread, I stated that the Coldain Prayer Shawl and the Coldain Insignia Ring questlines were hands down the hardest thing to me.  The dedication, time, and difficulty to finish those were well beyond the difficulty it took to clear Temple of Veeshan or Veeshan's Peak back then.   To me, that was "end game" that was never achieved by myself.

    There is nothing set in stone that says "Raids > All", so why should give the majority of the BiS gear?  There needs to be multiple ways to get different BiS pieces of gear.  Questing, Crafting, Gathering, Raiding, Dungeon crawling, and even Exploration should all be rewarded with BiS gear.

    • 556 posts
    January 20, 2017 9:52 AM PST

    UnknownQuantity said:

    I'm not very big on raiding, but I'm curious how you would institute a raid cap in a non instanced world. Before there were raids people would wander dungeons and fight together without official groups. Even if you had a raid cap people could still come along and participate. Would you add some artificial restrictions to prevent killing mobs if more than a certain number of people are there? I doubt it would work very well.

    The answer to this is going to vary person to person. For me, I'd cap the raid size and put raids on lock out timers. With capped raid size, multiple raid groups would have to fight over a mob but why fight over it if theres a lock out and itll respawn in 30 mins? I personally feel that the days of racing to mobs is unneeded. Especially when so many people have created hacks and such to make it even worse. 

    Jasper said:

    EQ didn't have raid caps until I believe Planes of Power.  We had raids that were done with around 20 and then some fights that had over 100.  Raiding wasn't "boring" to me back then.  However to me, it wasn't the hardest thing for me personally.   In another thread, I stated that the Coldain Prayer Shawl and the Coldain Insignia Ring questlines were hands down the hardest thing to me.  The dedication, time, and difficulty to finish those were well beyond the difficulty it took to clear Temple of Veeshan or Veeshan's Peak back then.   To me, that was "end game" that was never achieved by myself. 

    There is nothing set in stone that says "Raids > All", so why should give the majority of the BiS gear?  There needs to be multiple ways to get different BiS pieces of gear.  Questing, Crafting, Gathering, Raiding, Dungeon crawling, and even Exploration should all be rewarded with BiS gear.

    Raiding in EQ wasn't hard at all. It was boring because you didn't have to do anything really cept beat the other guilds there. There was no strategy, planning, or anything. More talking about current raiding tactics rather than EQ's limitations.

    And again, not arguing the need for multiple paths. That is the entire point to this thread


    This post was edited by Enitzu at January 20, 2017 9:54 AM PST