Kaen said:Some additional ideas I had.
Perhaps the entrance to this dungeon can be found only deep within another dungeon, inaccessible unless a difficult 100+ person raid boss is killed first. (This boss is maybe on a one week or two week timer?) Once the boss is killed, anyone has access to this dungeon until the boss spawns again, at which time a large raid will have to bring him down in order for people to access the dungeon.
As far as loot, I tried to keep everything pretty simple, avoiding vertical progression rewards as much as possible. However, it might be worth considering adding some vertical progression items. Anyway, below are just some ideas fleshed out a little.
Edit: Additionally, I tried to avoid things that really detract from the "reality" of the game and immersion. For example, no "mounts" where people just ride around on a giant pink mouse or a storm cloud... or emotes that summon little fireworks around a character... extraordinarily silly stuff that could become a prevalent nuissance over time.
Loot/Reward Ideas:
Mounts (If mounts are available) – Unicorns of several varieties (different color manes, different color horns, sparkling horns), Demon Steed (black with red glowing eyes, mane of shadow), Phantom Steed (ghost-like horse, several varieties)
Particle Effect Imbue Scrolls – Add particle effect to weapons (Flames, blue glow, red glow, sparkling offered in variety of colors, lightning, etc…) Weapons that already have an effect are not affected by these scrolls?
Bags – Weight reduction bags ranging from 25% to 100%, slots ranging from 4, 6, 8, 10, capacity ranging from small, medium, large.
Cosmetic Cloaks – Several varieties of patterns and colors, hood can be toggled on/off.
Cosmetic Quivers – Several styles, limited to warriors, rangers, rogues?
Illusion Clickies – (All extremely rare, of course) One for each race, and a variety of ultra-rare clickies that offer illusions like: gnoll, dragon-kin (humanoid), etc…
Stylizied Tabards/Surcoats – Waist-to-knee or shoulder-to-knee, assortment of colors and designs
Cosmetic Sashes – Assorted colors, assorted patterns (solid, checkered, striped), cloth-of-gold
Gate Stone – 15 second cast, allows player to gate. 3 charges, rechargeable via some player craft profession only, requires rare, expensive materials.
Rare Crafting materials and/or crafting materials that drop only in this dungeon.
Crystals – Can be used at vendors located at the entrance in order to purchase stuff. Maybe consumables, one time use Gate Stones, crafting materials, crafting supplies that can only be purchased with crystals, etc…
Any additional thoughts/ideas or criticisms are welcome.
One of the major components of this concept is to have vertical progression that is exclusive to the dungeon itself. The idea behind that is to allow players to sink a lot of time into the vertical progression of this dungeon without having an impact on their progression outside of it. If someone manages to actually beat the dungeon, or acquire a full set of T5 collectible items, then and only then would they earn something that has a tangible benefit outside of the dungeon. This is the logic I referenced on the other thread, but with a twist. You enjoy the benefits of deep vertical progression (which basically serve as a form of horizontal progression toward a tangible yet purposely limited vertical reward for outside) without throwing the balance of the rest of the game out of whack. A lot of the loot reward ideas you shared would be perfect for the T5 collection quests. The goal now, for me, is to try and take this same concept, but spin it into something that can be done without instancing. All that said, what are your thoughts about the loot progression model, specifically? This is an extremely important aspect of the idea.
Without going through all the posts but seeing mention of multi lvl dungeons with increased difficulty, I really enjoyed Tower of Frozen Shadows the first month or so of Velious when people were still figuring out the keys and it was still a little challenging.
It quickly got to the point that a group would just go straight to the top floor and camp it...and it wasn't long before that wasn't worth the time. A similar concept with a steeper power curve from beginning to end would be great.
This is the perfect example where the most difficult area could be over tuned for a max geared group of the current expansion even if the dungeon is theoretically designed for a single group. Basically it would be 2 group content until the next expansion was released. Once players gained some added power it would be doable by one group. This type of "over" tuning an encounter extends the life of content. I would love to see more content tuned this way.
Content that is tuned for 2, maybe even 3 groups, at max gear in the current expansion with the expectation that down the line that same content will be completable by a single group is great implementation and good planning.
I really like the general idea. I'm not sure what the best way to implement it would be though. I'm sure you have a fairly good idea of how it could work, as you explained in an earlier post, but without having played FFXI I'm still not sure I understand it exactly.
As far as non-vertical progression items, I still think those should be included (as an added bonus/incentive), of course. But they should all be ultra-rare imo. I don't think we're in disagreement here though. :D
A couple improtant factors for me would be keeping level / current gear. I would want to experience it like a legit dungeon and less like a side-game.
An idea for vertical progression loot - Maybe you have to collect pieces of items (hilt, pommel, blade, scabbard) then combine them into a single item. That item is then used to summon forth a random boss, depending on the rarity of the pieces/item. At that point the item is consumed. The summoned bosses could range from lesser bosses to serious raid bosses. All of these pieces would be pretty rare, and it may take several days to get all the items for a lesser boss. For the raid bosses it may take up to three or four weeks to collect enough to summon one.
Just thought I would add this to the mix. Throwing out ideas as they come to me :P
Edit: If I'm missing or confused about one or more of the core concepts behind your idea, I apologize. I feel like we're thinking in the same direction but maybe not quite in the same neighborhood. :P
Gauntlet of Diffusion -- (GoD)
Design Goals:
Create a challenging dungeon crawl experience centered around high replay value and dynamic combat.
Utilize long-term, GoD exclusive vertical progression as an opportunity for players to unlock purposely limited yet tangible progression for characters that complete the dungeon.
Recycle existing game assets in order to achieve maximum content value with minimal design effort.
Create an effective gold-sink that can help with staving off inflation.
Allow hardcore players an avenue to invest high playtime without contributing toward any significant gap in power between them and the larger player base.
Create an epic dungeon experience that allows players an opportunity to affect temporary change into the world.
Create a leaderboard that allows competitive players to ascend a ranked ladder that doesn't contribute toward the idea of competition for resources in the game world.
Dungeon could be expanded upon with future expansions.
Dungeon Design:
The dungeon would consist of 7 wings that share a single, expansive floor plan.
Each wing would contain it's own audio/video elements that grow progressively more foreboding.
Each wing would contain a different pool of NPC's and itemization to randomly draw from, scaling in difficulty/quality.
The difficulty scaling for each wing would include more atmospheres, environmental effects, or traps not seen in priors wings.
As you progress through each wing, more dispositions would be added to the NPC pool.
Movement speed, aggro ranges, and detection methods would fluctuate depending on NPC type.
To expand on the above, think of drakes that can cover long distances in short periods of time, beholders that can see through invis, or wolves that can detect you from an increased range.
Every NPC serves as a place-holder for lottery spawns, meaning that every respawn has a very small chance to spawn as a named.
The final room for each wing would contain a teleportation device that can only be activated by defeating a force-spawned gate-keeper.
Dungeon Rules:
An admission fee must be paid by each player prior to entering the dungeon.
Upon entering the dungeon, each player would be outfitted in starter gear. (They retain their level.)
If a group wipes, they are removed from the dungeon and have to restart at the entrance on their next run.
Players can attune themselves to teleportation devices, allowing them to save their progress, exit the dungeon, and pick up where they left off when they return.
In order to attune to a teleportation device, players must conquer the unique gate-keeper associated with it.
T2 chests have a chance to drop a "Providence" item. These can be used to summon a player to a teleportation device that they have previously attuned to, consuming the item in the process.
The dungeon utilizes a unique progression model for itemization. (Explained in next section.)
Itemization Progression Model:
Loot would be divided into five colored tiers.
T1 (Red Chests) -- T1 loot would include gear and consumables ranging in quality from poor to average. T1 loot is considered temporary and will disappear from player inventories if they wipe and fail the dungeon.
T2 (Green Chests) -- T2 loot would include gear and consumables that are higher quality than what can be found in red chests, ranging from good to great. T2 loot is considered temporary and will disappear from player inventories if they wipe and fail the dungeon. (The only exception to this rule is the "Providence" item which would not disappear. It is consumed upon use, though.)
T3 (Blue Chests) -- T3 loot would include gear that ranges in quality from good to great. T3 loot is considered soulbound to GoD. T3 loot cannot be taken with you outside of the dungeon, but will return to your inventory when players re-enter the zone in the future.
T4 (Purple Chests) -- T4 loot would include gear with an excellent quality score. T4 loot is considered soulbound to GoD. T4 loot cannot be taken with you outside of the dungeon, but will return to your inventory when players re-enter the zone in the future.
T5 (Gold Chests) -- T5 loot would include tradeable collection items. T5 collectibles are the only items that can be taken out of GoD. There is a collection merchant outside of the dungeon that is willing to trade a prestigious item for a full set of these items. (It's possible to create multiple "sets" of these collection items with each set qualifying for a different prestigious item. These prestigious items would be cosmetic in nature and could include mounts, cloaks, illusions, pet illusions, and house items.)
Final Thoughts:
Itemization would ideally be balanced around a "situational gear" ideology. All the way up to T4, the ceiling for any individual piece of loot would be situational.
In order for the above to be true, a wide variety of combat situations would need to be present in the dungeon, ranging from atmosphere, environment, and resistance.
To further expand on the above, a variety of NPC dispositions and behaviors should contribute toward the value of long-term diagonal progression within the dungeon.
Lottery spawns would always drop at least 1 piece of T3-T4 gear, and have an increased chance of dropping a T5 collectible item.
In addition to the above, lottery spawns would drop a single teleportation rune.
X amount of teleportation runes can be consumed to summon a gate-keeper in the final room of each wing. These runes would be tiered for each wing.
Item quality would not necessitate "ilevel" or "gearscore" implementation. A human being would determine what loot belongs in each tier.
You could limit the availability of this dungeon by gating it behind faction or using it as a "dynamic event" that utilizes various world triggers that can open/close it.
The 7'th wing would contain a wise sage in the final room that offers to teach adventurers a powerful spell or ability.
Rather than a teleportation device, the final room of the 7'th wing would contain a summoning portal.
In order to activate the summoning portal, players would need to consume a full set of teleportation runes from each wing. (7 sets total.)
Activating the summoning portal would call forth an epic raid boss, tuned for a raid that is completely outfitted in T4 gear.
Defeating the final boss would affect temporary change into the world of Terminus.
The final boss could have it's own unique set of prestigious items. (The only vertical progression associated with this dungeon is a single spell or ability acquired from the Wise Sage.)
The above is my attempt to revise the original concept to work without instances. The floorplan for each wing is meant to be very expansive, but it could be shared between each wing for resource conservation. Rather than changing the floorplan for each tier, they would each have their own texture package (wall skins, monuments, doors, ground surfacing) in addition to unique audio. Players would also be able to enjoy a sense of progression with new traps, NPC's (and their associated behaviors), atmospheres, environmental effects, dispositions, and loot. You can create a portion of loot that is unique to each wing (perhaps tied into the gate-keepers) that is centered around a single resistance or atmosphere, ideally one that matches the theme of that wing. So the first wing would have a chance to spawn a variety of NPC's, but the lottery spawns and gate-keepers are themed for fire. The second wing (and gate-keeper) could be themed around ice, but still have a chance to spawn both fire and ice themed NPC's and lottery spawns. The third wing (and gate-keeper) could be themed for poison, but still have a chance to spawn fire and ice NPC's and lottery spawns. The further you get into the dungeon, the more diverse the pool of resistance themed NPC's and lottery spawns.
I think the above reinforces the logic behind Philo's post. This content could be over-tuned in the sense that without the proper resistance gear, they might require 3-4 groups. As players earn more and more gear, it's possible that a single group could start farming some of the wings associated with the strengths of their situational gear, althought that content should still be very challenging for a single group. It's also important to note that there should be plenty of value in the T1-T2 loot. It wouldn't make sense for players to try and skip through any of the wings due to the possibility of situational T1-T2 gear that could help them for that specific run. For example, a player could loot a T2 helmet or breastplate with poison resistance while not having a T3 or T4 piece that can be used in that slot. Upon looting that piece, they stand to lose something because they know the situational value of that item will vanish after dying. That ideology reinforces the value of loss aversion which is something that should be prevalent for a long, long time in this dungeon. Ideally, players would strive for as much T3-T4 loot as possible but this obviously requires a lot more time invested in the dungeon.
Anyway, kudos again to all who shared their thoughts, especially those who were willing to give the idea a chance, no matter how far-fetched. This revision was partially inspired by feedback from Ainadak, Coda, Enitzu, Manouk, Amsai, Noobiedoo, Zynxs, Pyye, Nolvu, Niloiv, Beefcake, Vjek, Bazgrim, CanadinaXegony, Amris, DeviantFox, chaoticyeshua, Tralyan, Landbert, Evoras, Zeem, Philo, Raidan, Kaen, and many others who I have had the pleasure of discussing it with outside of the forum. I think there is still plenty of potential for improvement and look forward to hearing some more feedback, especially anything constructive or positive. Criticism is always welcome as well (specifically because it touches on painpoints that might need revision) but it's always very much appreciated when someone at least makes an attempt to add an idea to the discussion. Saying that something is bad or that it doesn't belong in the game can still be used as inspiration but it feels much more gratifying when people pull together and again, I really do appreciate the folks who allow these posts to feel fun and encouraging. Cheers!
I like it! I'm especially fond of the "lottery spawns" idea. Additionally, it would be nice if all mobs had a chance to drop stuff like the "cosmetic keepsake" gear. Of course, easier mobs (1-2 groups) would have a much lower chance at this than mobs that require 3-5 groups. As always, I think those sorts of things (the gear, or the "seal" or "crystal" drops should be very, very rare).
I'm a little confused about certain aspects, but it's a lot of info so I think rereading it--which I plan to do shortly--will clarify the questions/concerns I have. Stay tuned... :P
In the meantime, I would encourage you read up on DAoC's Labyrinth dungeon. Your idea is very similar, especially in regards to teleporters and such to which you can "attune" yourself.
That thing in Lufia was addictive but frustrating as all hell.
Alrighty, here is my feedback (additional ideas and adjustments to existing ideas):
Dungeon crawl experience (vs. Camping). A set of components must be farmed from each of the seven lesser bosses in order to summon the final boss. People who are trying to summon the final boss must do the dungeon crawl.
For replay value, perhaps once a month the keys are wiped, and devs—if they want to—can switch out loot tables (new/different cosmetics, new "final boss" drops, etc...) and mob types for a more dynamic environment.
The final boss is a summonable creature that requires players to turn in a number of items (gained from killing bosses during the dungeon crawl) at an altar of some sort. Maybe seven in total for the seven wings? Perhaps the boss here is randomized. You might get the TRUE final boss, or you might get some other boss that can drop some neat stuff. Don’t like which boss you got, get back to collecting!
Final boss – Defeating this mob spawns one or several world bosses and also causes a temporary world-wide change in weather and environment behavior. Additionally, he drops some vertical progression items (random high-score loot that can be found on raid bosses), and maybe something else.
Crystals or seals (used at merchants for cosmetic gear and such) OR non-vertical gear (cosmetics and such) can drop from any mob in the dungeon, but these things are extremely rare. Slightly less rare from boss kills, but still extremely rare.
Instead of “wings” and an easily memorized floorplan (I know, this is an assumption), what about a layered “hedge-maze” type of environment (imagine a hedge-maze and an enormous, creepy keep had a baby) that is always shifting (stairways that go under passageways, overpasses, narrow cooridors, secret passages, big fields, etc...) . These shifts are activated by mob/boss deaths. The reason for this idea is I can imagine a relatively simple—albeit large—floorplan might get boring and repetitive and “grindy” fast.
Creeping environmental patterns – Throughout the dungeon, the environment is constantly shifting. Sometimes you watch a poison storm approach in the distance but know there is no escaping it. It’s coming for you and there is a dense forest of mobs ahead, and you have re-pops and patrols behind. Other times a storm might miss you by just a hair. The deeper you go the more intense and active these storms become.
Players enter the dungeon with all of their normal gear. The gear that drops within the dungeon goes onto a specialty paper-doll designed solely for this dungeon. The paper-doll features all equipment slots, but the gear focuses solely on raising resistances (poison, disease, energy, etc…). This gear is necessary for progression as those without it will have trouble surviving mobs’ attacks and spells and the environment. They will especially need it for the final boss, which not only does any and all of these environmental things but summons storm after storm as well, which envelops much or all of his giant chamber (I see the final boss having his own giant chamber).
An example of T1 head piece – 4 poison resistance, 5 disease resistance
An example of a T4 head piece – 18 poison resistance, 20 disease resistance, 16 energy resistance, and on and on for other resistances…
I think this (the above) would be much easier on the devs in terms of balance as this could be easily applied to all classes without much additional consideration, though I don't think it would be a huge problem for them otherwise. But this way people could keep their normal gear. Don't know how other people feel, but I'd prefer to dungeon crawl with my normal gear. What I've proposed may be a solution that allows people to keep and use their normal gear but also encourages people to farm the dungeon's gear.
Wiping does not cause you to lose any of your dungeon gear. This gear remains on your character. However, this gear has durability that goes down when you die, and it cannot be repaired. Higher tier pieces have more durability than lower tier pieces. But eventually you will need to start replacing things if you keep dying.
The loot progression model is something I would like to stick to, as closely as possible. I wouldn't want players to be able to bring their outside gear into the dungeon because that takes away from a core aspect of the dungeon design. If players can bring in gear that has fire resistance or ice resistance, they can essentially bypass some of the intended progression. It also goes against the extremely important sense of loss version that exists. T1 and T2 loot should be considered valuable in the sense that you stand to lose it if you die. T3 & T4 loot are considered valuable in the sense that they are now a permanent item in your repertoire for future crawls. This loot progression model is what made the Ancient Cavern in Lufia 2 so great.
Ideally, all mobs would have a chance to drop T1-T5 loot. You could create 10-20 different sets of T5 loot to increase the overall rarity and appealing nature of the items when someone actually manages to acquire a set for turn-in. Lottery spawns and Gate Keepers would each drop at least one T3-T4 piece but also have a higher chance of dropping a T5 collectible piece as well. Again, it's very important that the loot progression model is strictly adhered to. It adds to the total replay value of this dungeon and allowing any loot to go in or out of the dungeon runs counter to the core philosophy that the dungeon was built around. There is still plenty of room to tweak the model but the in/out aspect should remain in tact.
Using some of your examples, the T5 loot would basically be a crystal or seal. You could have the Seals of X, Seals of Y, Seals of Z, etc, with each full set being associated with a unique cosmetic item. As far as the rewards for killing the final boss, I don't want to spectulate too much on that only because I don't want this idea to spin off into a discussion about hardcore vs casual, forced vs optional, raiders vs non-raiders, etc. This dungeon is an outlier when it comes to traditional risk vs reward in the game. The vertical reward path (in regards to how your character progresses outside of the zone) is purposely limited. The goal is to give players a long-term (GoD exclusive) vertical progression tree they can work on that doesn't have to be balanced into the standard progression model for the rest of the game.
For someone like me, this kind of model reinforces the ideology that vertical power progression doesn't have to be the absolute end-all-be-all. More than anything, I enjoy constant strategy, playing with friends, and working toward goals. It's extremely difficult for developers to give players this much content, risk vs reward, and progression to play around without artificially limiting the quality/quantity of the loot due to game balance and desired progression curves. Again, this is an exception to the rule and that's why the in/out rule is sacred. A dungeon like this would allow players who love dungeon crawling to crawl as often as they like (and can afford) without growing exponentially powerful. There is a reason that "lockouts" were created in various games and this concept basically provides a solution to that problem without having to lock players out of content.
You mentioned in your horizontal progression thread that you are willing to spend a massive amount of time on horizontal progression for some sort of vertical reward at the end. I think this dungeon exemplifies that mentality but has a great added bonus of having it's own unique vertical progression tree that allows players to enjoy a sense of consistent progression along the way, even though it's exclusive to this zone. I guess that's how I look at this. The entire vertical tree of GoD is considered a horizontal tree for the outside game. If you make it to the end of that long, horizontal tree, you get a small bump in vertical power. Not everybody is going to be willing to commit to something like this but the replay value and potential for some nice prestigious drops along the way make it really attractive, in my opinion.
I love some of your ideas about expanding the zone and allowing it to be ever-changing. To be honest, I could go on and on when it comes to coming up with more ideas to make a dungeon like this pop and feel special. I was going for a maximum bang for minimum buck approach due to limited resources. The more epic or grand an idea is, the more likely people will jump all over it and say how unnecessary, contrived, or bloated it is. I don't really like saying this but I have purposely limited some of the creative ideas I have had for this dungeon just to keep it "reasonable." More than anything, the "Content is King" rule reigns supreme for a player like me. That content doesn't need to be the shiniest or prettiest content in the world. I just want really high replay value, especially when it comes to grouping and raiding. We probably won't see a lot of raid content in Pantheon and I think a dungeon like this would be a great compromise.
It's certainly an interesting idea. I think I would enjoy it.
As far as progression, lots of people won't be with the same group(s) every time because some people will play more than the majority of their friends and guildmates. This means that someone who wants to continue in the dungeon during "off-hours" may have to join PUGs. Will this be an issue?
Also, how long will it take for a fully geared raid to get to (summon) the final boss? I don't see this as something groups / raids can do in a day. I see it as something that should take a fully-equipped raid several weeks.
I think it would have been more difficult for players to stick together with the instanced version. The revised version alleviates that concern tremendously. At the end of the day, the idea of making it to the end of the dungeon is something that should take a very long time. Ideally, the encounters would be tuned to the point where progressing from one wing to the next would take a considerable amount of time. The deeper you get into the dungeon, the more difficult it is to advance. As new atmospheres and resistances are added to the mix, players have more dangers to consider and areas of progression they need to work on. Nobody should think that they can go from beginning to end in any short amount of time. It should take many, many months of T3 & T4 loot acquisition before players would be able to consistently navigate through the wings.
The Providence item would allow groups or raids to summon a player to a deeper wing if they have already previously attuned to that specific teleportation device. This allows players some flexibility. As far as actually beating the last boss is concerned, just getting to the last boss should be extremely challenging. The dungeon gets progressively harder the deeper you go but eventually, players would be able to get to the end. I think it should require multiple sets of situational T4 gear for the majority of the raid. Even with all that gear, there is still plenty of potential for things to go wrong. If you're in Wing 4, you would obviously want to avoid pulling a Poison Drake and Earth Golem at the same time. With rotational atmospheric effects and a variety of aggro radiuses, detection methods, movement speeds, pathing patterns, etc, navigation should still be very challenging.
If it were up to me, defeating this kind of dungeon would be an amazing and epic achievement. The progression aspect alone is going to require some serious time investment to overcome. It shouldn't be measured in how long it would take raids or guilds to be able to beat it, but whether or not they can actually pull it off in the first place. It could be entirely possible that no guild manages to beat this dungeon until the following expansion. It really boils down to how everything is tuned but due to the unique progression model, you can tune it however you want. That's a part of the beauty. Guilds could have the best raid gear in the game from outside the dungeon but it isn't going to do them any good in here. The final boss could be a Sleeper-esque type of experience except that it is expected to beaten ... just not for a long, long time.
oneADseven said:I think it would have been more difficult for players to stick together with the instanced version. The revised version alleviates that concern tremendously. At the end of the day, the idea of making it to the end of the dungeon is something that should take a very long time. Ideally, the encounters would be tuned to the point where progressing from one wing to the next would take a considerable amount of time. The deeper you get into the dungeon, the more difficult it is to advance. As new atmospheres and resistances are added to the mix, players have more dangers to consider and areas of progression they need to work on. Nobody should think that they can go from beginning to end in any short amount of time. It should take many, many months of T3 & T4 loot acquisition before players would be able to consistently navigate through the wings.
The Providence item would allow groups or raids to summon a player to a deeper wing if they have already previously attuned to that specific teleportation device. This allows players some flexibility. As far as actually beating the last boss is concerned, just getting to the last boss should be extremely challenging. The dungeon gets progressively harder the deeper you go but eventually, players would be able to get to the end. I think it should require multiple sets of situational T4 gear for the majority of the raid. Even with all that gear, there is still plenty of potential for things to go wrong. If you're in Wing 4, you would obviously want to avoid pulling a Poison Drake and Earth Golem at the same time. With rotational atmospheric effects and a variety of aggro radiuses, detection methods, movement speeds, pathing patterns, etc, navigation should still be very challenging.
If it were up to me, defeating this kind of dungeon would be an amazing and epic achievement. The progression aspect alone is going to require some serious time investment to overcome. It shouldn't be measured in how long it would take raids or guilds to be able to beat it, but whether or not they can actually pull it off in the first place. It could be entirely possible that no guild manages to beat this dungeon until the following expansion. It really boils down to how everything is tuned but due to the unique progression model, you can tune it however you want. That's a part of the beauty. Guilds could have the best raid gear in the game from outside the dungeon but it isn't going to do them any good in here. The final boss could be a Sleeper-esque type of experience except that it is expected to beaten ... just not for a long, long time.
If you can only use this soulbound gear inside this instanced dungeon then all of your efforts at progression are basically just playing in this one giant instance, so you are completely playing by yourself (or a single group) not part of the world. Why would I spend *ANY* time getting gear in a dungeon when I can't use it on my character out in the world?
fazool said:
If you can only use this soulbound gear inside this instanced dungeon then all of your efforts at progression are basically just playing in this one giant instance, so you are completely playing by yourself (or a single group) not part of the world. Why would I spend *ANY* time getting gear in a dungeon when I can't use it on my character out in the world?
fazool said:If you can only use this soulbound gear inside this instanced dungeon then all of your efforts at progression are basically just playing in this one giant instance, so you are completely playing by yourself (or a single group) not part of the world. Why would I spend *ANY* time getting gear in a dungeon when I can't use it on my character out in the world?
There have been some changes to the idea. I have avoided editing earlier posts to preserve the story of the thread and how it ultimately evolved. Please feel free to check out my post with the "Gauntlet of Diffusion" header as it is the most recent and fleshed out version of the concept. It would not be instanced. I think a dungeon like this would resonate with a lot of players so whether you want to play in a group or raid, with friends or in pick-up groups, you should be able to get in on the action. As far as the loot progression model is concerned, I tried my best to explain the idea behind it. I know there is a lot of text to sort through but if you read through my last several posts you will find the answer to your questions. Either way, it isn't designed to appeal to everybody. If is specifically designed for players who would appreciate a challenging dungeon crawl experience with plenty of curveballs. It is designed for players who are are attracted to deep progression and long-term goals, but who have the understanding that the external power growth associated with this dungeon is purposely limited. That said, the GoD exclusive progression would still feel very rewarding to a specific subset of player.
I mentioned how a lot of games utilize lockouts as a tool to thwart player progression in order to maintain a desired curve, but it comes at the expense of content availability. The purpose of this dungeon is to bend the rules (But reinforce the most important one of all which is "Content is King.") -- allow players the opportunity to enjoy deep, meaningful progression that doesn't need to be purposely thwarted for the sake of overall game balance. It is designed to combat the theory that developers can never push out enough content for the players. This dungeon would give you the opportunity to enjoy countless hours of teamwork, dynamic combat, strategy, and layered progression, as long as you have the expectation that your character isn't going to become a demi-god as a result. The potential for external power growth is limited to a single ability or spell, per class. Everything else would be either cosmetic or utility-oriented in nature. The idea of affecting change into the world is also attractive and we haven't even scratched the surface on that part yet. More to come.
I feel as though this would be an extremely artificial experience. It would feel like I'm essentially logging into a rich open world, then from that rich world, loading up a game. It just doesn't seem to fit the mold of Pantheons vision to me. I can see the appeal, but immersion is a huge factor for me and having anything randomized will stick out like a sore thumb when nothing else in the game world is random.
accivatti said:I feel as though this would be an extremely artificial experience. It would feel like I'm essentially logging into a rich open world, then from that rich world, loading up a game. It just doesn't seem to fit the mold of Pantheons vision to me. I can see the appeal, but immersion is a huge factor for me and having anything randomized will stick out like a sore thumb when nothing else in the game world is random.
When you say random, what are you referring to, specifically? The random floor plan aspect was removed from the equation with the most recent version of the concept, dubbed as "Gauntlet of Diffusion" further up the page. The only thing that is irregularly random that I can think of is the NPC pool but even that wouldn't be completely random due to the zone being separated into 7 tiers. Dispositions, environmental effects, traps and the like are all things that will likely be randomized to some degree in the rest of the game. There is still plenty of potential to improve the idea and if you think immersion is an area that should be considered, feel free to share some specific examples of what you think would stick out like a sore thumb.
Ordinarily, I wouldn't like the idea, but I think this could be done 'sensitively' to Pantheon lore and atmosphere.
Why shouldn't some dungeon exist on an alternate plane that is created by magic simply to test champions of Terminus? It's exactly the type of thing that appears in high fantasy and Terminus in particular is made of different worlds smashed together. One of those being a magical multi-levelled dungeon/tower/whatever is hardly jarringly weird is it?
I'm pretty sure there are a lot of people wanting PvP arenas and events popping up in Pantheon (something in which I am uninterested) and won't be questioning the weirdness of that.
You would have to take care with the 'feel' of it, though - you wouldn't want it feeling too much like an arcade game within a high fantasy experience. And you'd have to be careful with what the rewards are.
As has been said, to have all the rewards only usable in the dungeon I would find irritating and would make it feel a bit pointless to me. Perhaps items obtained in the dungeon could be used to skin items you have in Terminus, so you can at least show off that you have reached floor 100 because your staff looks like the Staff of the Gauntlet?
I don't think there's anything wrong with the 'random' idea, either. If you correctly 'sell' the lore of a magical dungeon to test heroes, then if the dungeon floors are somewhat random, that's fine and would also add to the replayability. You could have a floor theme with particular monster types, several floor layouts, differing mana colours and environments (though that might relate to the monster type), etc. You'd walk through the end of floor door to appear on a new one and think "Hmm. Looks like Halls of the Dead marble panelling be prepared for undead. This first room is laid out like the trap room we were in on level 2 though - look out for pit traps. But it's very warm - switch to fire resistant gear if you have it. Is that a blue mana haze, though? Not good for our healer - be careful with health levels all!".
To the folks fearing this would be immersion breaking.. I can think up quite a few ways this could be done using the lore. This idea could be an alternate dimension the gnomes have broken in to but you have to leave your body to go there... Ogre's getting high in a shamanistic ritual and going to the spirit world, etc..
Cool idea.
Maximis said:Ogre's getting high in a shamanistic ritual and going to the spirit world, etc..
Maximis said:To the folks fearing this would be immersion breaking.. I can think up quite a few ways this could be done using the lore. This idea could be an alternate dimension the gnomes have broken in to but you have to leave your body to go there... Ogre's getting high in a shamanistic ritual and going to the spirit world, etc..
Cool idea.
I think both of your ideas could definitely be tied into the "Rites of Passage" feature. I got a good laugh out of the ogre example ... thank you for that!
I have to say I like the Idea of this dungeon for its replay value. I understand peoples qualms about instanced dungeons, I think though if the loot table in this dungeon is purly based off cosmetic an glory meaning the accomplishment of beating said dungeon then it could have a place in A MMO.I believe if something like this was concieved it would only be played on down times. if there is a live Mob or dungeon/ raid that you have not completed yet I dont see why someone would want to do this this cause there is still content for you to do in the world. Every MMO that i have played has gotten monotonous, once a game is released its only a matter of time that the players catch up to the end game content before the new expansion.. Guild of wars 2 tried to by pass this by realisng new content every couple of weeks but there new content just lacked depth an zerging killed it for me. I think in the ever expanding lore that is pantheon a ever evolving procedurally dungeon could have a place but what i think would be cool is if it was a zone. like a giant labyrinth that multible groups could enter so it woulnt feel cut off from the word.Anyways I like the forward thinking of this thread an love the community that this game is creating looking forward to playing with you all
@Lightbreather -- Plenty of great points. I have considered starting a new post based around the GoD (Gauntlet of Diffusion) evolved version of the concept but wasn't sure if it would be considered a double post. The idea has evolved to be more like a giant labyrinth where multiple groups or raids could participate simultaneously without being cut off from the rest of the world. I was caught up in the idea of trying to recreate the Lufia 2 experience as closely as possible and that was really hampering my ability to think outside of the box. Evoras shared some great ideas early on and Zeem also contributed the idea of turning it into a gauntlet. I think the GoD revision makes a lot more sense for a game like Pantheon as instancing has been removed from the equation.
The unique progression model was preserved, although still a bit different from how it worked in Lufia 2. Apparently in Lufia 2, you could take the T3-T4 loot outside of the dungeon. That wouldn't be possible for this concept to work as it would reinforce several of the pain points that were highlighted earlier in the thread, specifically the idea that players would choose to spend the vast majority of their time inside this dungeon with the sole purpose of achieving vertical progression that would extend outside it. I appreciate all of the feedback that helped push the idea forward and will definitely make an effort to continue adding to it. Cheers!
Some Ideas for this:
What if you get points, like in Gates of Discord instances, where you can spend points on cosmetics, or even on progression by unlocking other floors or diffculty of floors. Maybe they can be keys.
Maybe have a static group go through the progression and if you wipe, then you have to start over and lose all your points. So in a sense a hardcore mode where you can't wipe and have to stick with the same group. However, maybe the reward is more points and/or more chance to drop w/e will drop in this dungeon with 100 floors.
If you go beat a certain amount of floors in a row then it will unlock a raid enocunter, which then you would need to group with other groups who have also gotten to that stage and do the raid encounter together in a pug for guaranteed w/e drops.
This is probably a bad idea, but I always liked the mystery behind MMOs. If anyone has played or watched the .hack series then you will get where I am coming from. So what if this dungeon affects the real world. Like if certain triggers are set off in some order, or multiple groups who happen to set of different triggers that combo together, then maybe special Pantheon World events trigger from anything like a raid encounter to a tropical storm that increases herb collecting in a certain area, or spawns certain creatures that attack a questing point.
Anything that catches people off guard really, making the world that much more organic.
@Watemper -- I'm not sure if you read the most recent version (Dubbed Gauntlet of Diffusion further up this page) but it seems to be aligned with some of your suggestions. It would be possible to earn cosmetic/utility items but rather than spending points, players could turn in sets of rare collectibles. Rather than having 100 floors, the dungeon would consist of 7 different wings that each have a gate-keeper that guards the entrance to the next wing. These gate-keepers would be force spawned by consuming X amount of "runes" that drop from the lottery spawn mini-bosses on each floor. Another thing that was discussed, briefly, was the idea that players could affect change into the world by defeating the final boss, but that could be expanded upon and include other milestones in the dungeon. These events could include unleashing raid bosses into the world or atmosphere/climate changes just as you proposed. There are plenty of ways that a dungeon like this could contribute toward the "event system" that Brad described, including whether or not the dungeon is open or closed to begin with. He offered a "Hill Giant vs Storm Giant War" example:
"There is a Hill Giant camp in the world, and it is *nasty*. Either even a raid couldn't break into the camp or perhaps we don't allow raids there.
But sometimes the Storm Giants come out of the heavens and attack the Hill Giants. What triggers this? It could be player driven, and could be obvious and simple or very complex, requiring you to have a guildmate on the other side of world who must ring an ancient bell that triggers earthquakes. Sometimes the Hill Giants are forced into disarray because of the earthquake, their guards move inside the gates, the inhabitants are distracted and not watching as vigilantly for an attack. The earthquake happens while you and your friends are watching, hiding from a distance. Sure enough, a Storm Giant army dynamically spawns and heads towards the gates of the Hill Giant fortress. You follow at a safe distance. A huge battle breaks out, giants of both varieties are dying on all sides. What would have been impossible normally (free movement in the Hill Giant region) is now possible. The Hill Giant mobs could change to as they react to the invasion. Certainly the Storm Giant mobs are interesting because they're not normally even spawned.
The adept and clever guild watches for events like this and opportunistically takes advantage of them. In this example they let the two giant clans battle it out, occasionally coming out of hiding a picking off a few mobs that don't normally spawn. Lo and behold, they also spawn with items that are only attainable during this Invasion Event. The game's content changed, rare items were temporarily obtainable, and it made you and your friends pay attention to what was going on in the world.... if you don't have someone, for example, at least occasionally checking to see if the Storm Giants have attacked then you're going to miss it (and the players who pay better attention won't). Or perhaps nobody paid attention, it was off-hours, and the invasion took place but there were no players around to do anything about it.
Regions could be enterable in certain conditions but not in others. NPCs could interact with each other with the result being meaningful to the player. Items can be made very rare but appear more naturally... instead of the valued vambraces only dropping 1 out of 500 times, encouraging players to kill the mob over and over again (boring, repetative), you could have the trigger for the Storm Giant invasion be just as statistically rare, but since you're following an event and killing the mob that only spawns during the Invasion once, you not only got the desired item but obtaining it was hopefully much more entertaining."