I have to say I'm with Liav on this. This is an insanely broad topic and in a forum thread you just can't get productive discussion unless you focus down. Luckily the discussion seems to have already focused in on stat/gear progression and so I'll join in on that topic.
I think Youmu has taken an interesting stance (horizontal progression), but while showing equations provides a nice visual aid, I think the only part that matters is verticality (to any degree) vs. entirely flat. If there is any vertical component to progression, then new is better than old and old goes into the trash. While horizontal progression is your organic, appealing, and non-GMO carrot, vertical progression is your bargain bin carrot. If you take every single number in the game and multiply it by 2, then boom, you've balanced your expansion. If you instead introduce a horizontal expansion where there is no stat inflation, then you need to grow a new carrot. Aesthetics, quality of life upgrades, and non-combat related bonuses can be part of the puzzle, but that won't always satisfy the full population of gear grinders.
Combat-related horizontal progression CAN get really tricky. If you're just mixing and matching similar stats without any vertical progression or new mechanics, then people won't care. If you can fight just as well with sword x (pre x-pac) as you can with sword y (post x-pac), then why work hard to get sword y? You can make pre x-pac gear somehow useless against post x-pac content, which then necessitates your horizontal progression. You could do this by resists using the climate system or the like and it wouldn't immediately be burdensome, but this quickly approaches having a suit of armor for each weather type. Will players grow weary of collecting their 10th gear set just to deal with the new climate since their other 9 sets don't do the trick? Do you instead try to introduce and balance new ways to play a character? Giving clerics an int-focused gear set or giving crusaders a dex-focused gear set can work, but that requires a lot of balancing.
You need a reason for players to go out and get new gear. If you give them a reason to get new gear, but don't make old gear obsolete, then their gear collection will grow. At some point your collection will grow unweildy and the vanity of the whole situation will smack you in the face every time you open your bank vault and sort through your 100 pieces of gear. I'm all for horizontal progression, but at some point vertical progression should wipe the slate clean.
There's another thread that brings up the idea of select iconic items surviving vertical progression through upgrades. This could apply to the fiery avenger type items, which could have a new quest line for their improvement for each vertical progression step. I'm all for this type of thing.
In terms of items and their stats I don’t believe they should have any attribute bonuses. The main issue is that Races lose their individuality when there are large quantities of attribute increasing equipment. Having items with AC 1, 2, 3, etc. and weapons with 2 damage, 3, 4, etc. works fine for a game like this. It may not look exciting, but IMO it makes the experience more enjoyable. You start out as a poor character and buy most of your equipment from vendors. All classes start with rusty items and wear cloth or leather as they can’t afford things like chain or plate right away. Magical weapons are rare to find until at least mid game. High level items might have something like extra fire damage, dispel on hit, extra hit point regeneration, or some other fancy effect.
On the stats aspect, I think they were done all right up until Velious raiding. They could have been a little more gradual for sure. When you hit velious raid gear though, they started to rocket. That was really bad on two fronts. One, because it wildly increased player power, trivializing group content and older raids. Two, it put too much emphasis on raiding by making raid gear almost essential.
Raiding should give some good stuff. Not only more stats, but items with unique procs and effects. You really don't have to make it ridiculously powerful to make it enticing. People will always want the best stuff, even if it's more time and work for marginal improvements.
Things to remember when designing items and balancing content during Pantheon's development.
Ainadak said:I have to say I'm with Liav on this. This is an insanely broad topic and in a forum thread you just can't get productive discussion unless you focus down. Luckily the discussion seems to have already focused in on stat/gear progression and so I'll join in on that topic.
I think Youmu has taken an interesting stance (horizontal progression), but while showing equations provides a nice visual aid, I think the only part that matters is verticality (to any degree) vs. entirely flat. If there is any vertical component to progression, then new is better than old and old goes into the trash. While horizontal progression is your organic, appealing, and non-GMO carrot, vertical progression is your bargain bin carrot. If you take every single number in the game and multiply it by 2, then boom, you've balanced your expansion. If you instead introduce a horizontal expansion where there is no stat inflation, then you need to grow a new carrot. Aesthetics, quality of life upgrades, and non-combat related bonuses can be part of the puzzle, but that won't always satisfy the full population of gear grinders.
Combat-related horizontal progression CAN get really tricky. If you're just mixing and matching similar stats without any vertical progression or new mechanics, then people won't care. If you can fight just as well with sword x (pre x-pac) as you can with sword y (post x-pac), then why work hard to get sword y? You can make pre x-pac gear somehow useless against post x-pac content, which then necessitates your horizontal progression. You could do this by resists using the climate system or the like and it wouldn't immediately be burdensome, but this quickly approaches having a suit of armor for each weather type. Will players grow weary of collecting their 10th gear set just to deal with the new climate since their other 9 sets don't do the trick? Do you instead try to introduce and balance new ways to play a character? Giving clerics an int-focused gear set or giving crusaders a dex-focused gear set can work, but that requires a lot of balancing.
You need a reason for players to go out and get new gear. If you give them a reason to get new gear, but don't make old gear obsolete, then their gear collection will grow. At some point your collection will grow unweildy and the vanity of the whole situation will smack you in the face every time you open your bank vault and sort through your 100 pieces of gear. I'm all for horizontal progression, but at some point vertical progression should wipe the slate clean.
There's another thread that brings up the idea of select iconic items surviving vertical progression through upgrades. This could apply to the fiery avenger type items, which could have a new quest line for their improvement for each vertical progression step. I'm all for this type of thing.
This is pretty much what I meant, just didn't have the energy to make a great post like you and for that I lift my hat for you.
Vertical progression has its place I think and shouldn't necessarily be taken out entierly imo, but vertical progression many times is the easy option, and not easy as in the great and simple way but more in the lazy and long term problematic way.
Other things than just gear for more horizontal progression could be something like unlocking more specilizations for your class in an expac instead of adding a couple levels. By doing something like this you could encourage players to try and get different gear for that specilization that is more suited for it.
Another thing with more horizontal progression is that it gives an oppertunity to flesh out the pre-existing world more instead of making newer higher level areas you can puyt things in old places.
//Voices of Terminus' Youmu Svartie
I agree with Dullahan. Raids rewards should be useful items, but nobody should be able to attain bis status simply by walking into a raid. Keep loot itemization relatively close to each other among current (+-1 expansion I guess) content and you keep your population busy and happy without needing a lot of gating. Make raid loot have hilarious jumps in power and suddenly nobody cares about 90% of the world you create.
Agree with Amsai also. Nothing bad about loot becoming obsolete over time, but over time should really be an order of magnitude larger than what it is in wow-clones.
Ainadak said:
Will players grow weary of collecting their 10th gear set just to deal with the new climate since their other 9 sets don't do the trick?
This is an interesting comment. It has to do with linear progression that is being discussed, but it also has to do specifically with all of the environmental hazards that will be prevalent in this game. Maybe the answer is no, it is not a concern? If the answer is yes it could end up being a major turn off that drives people away. Hopefully it ends up being the former. Linear progression has driven people away in some other games.
philo said:Ainadak said:
Will players grow weary of collecting their 10th gear set just to deal with the new climate since their other 9 sets don't do the trick?
This is an interesting comment. It has to do with linear progression that is being discussed, but it also has to do specifically with all of the environmental hazards that will be prevalent in this game. Maybe the answer is no, it is not a concern? If the answer is yes it could end up being a major turn off that drives people away. Hopefully it ends up being the former. Linear progression has driven people away in some other games.
The reason and the mechanism for doing it was different, but FFXI did it for I think 8? years at the same level cap. And people loved it. So I would say having mostly horizontal gear progression at endgame for about 8 years with only a small curve vertically is possible. Because it was still progression to better your character with the best min/max set up you could without mjor increases in power and without negating older gear. This also let gear have more value for much longer times. Not raid to gear to raid to gear to raid to gear, etc. It was just aimed more at the min/maxing of in battle tactics through situational battle gear. Where as Pantheon would be more preperation of situational gear before hand based on situational aura/weather gear.
So I think if done right it absolutely would incentivize people to chase that gear and do that content. All you'd have to do is create the need. If you need that fire resistant high end gear so that you can do the fire raid you will go get it. Even if your current "normal" gear is more powerful. Because it wont matter if you cant even survive the environment. But as I said it would need to be done in such a way that it is an absolute NEED for it to work. It wont work though if you can bypass it too much through racial or class abilities or quests. And I know some might be skeptical that people wold be ok with it. Trust me, after a bit of adjustment they would be just fine. You still have the carrot on the stick gear chase, its just shifting the focus from best stats for your class to best stats for surviving the elements and still having good class stats.
Just test all the gear and finalize all the stats before you put the gear in game. I get so pissed when an expansion comes out, I determine the best gear to get, work my tail off to get it all. Next week, it's all nerfed.
Even worse when I already sold my old gear. I had to learn the hard way to keep a couple sets of older items, just in case.
I am fine with balancing them items when necessary, but not within a couple weeks of release. That just shows piss poor testing and planning.
Liav said:I think deifying Brad as a person who 100% has solutions to any given problem is naive. I like the guy and I like his games, but maybe let's not try to dismiss topics because he allegedly has a solution.
I'm not dismissing it. I think it's impossible that everything will go perfectly according to plan over the next 5 years. There are always unexpected scenarios. But at least there's a plan. I'm just countering the people that lose hope before we've even begun because pretty much every other company barely plans balancing 6 months ahead. There's something to be said for having 20 years of experience to have the wisdom to avoid a lot of the pitfalls other devs fall into. Powercreep is something that can definitely be mitigated with adequate planning.
Liav said:I think deifying Brad as a person who 100% has solutions to any given problem is naive. I like the guy and I like his games, but maybe let's not try to dismiss topics because he allegedly has a solution.
Or, give his team a chance before always being the biggest negative Nancy as possible. They may totally screw it up, but I feel that they care enough to do the guve it a try.
You always hate whenever someone says they liked something in the past and they want to see it again.
Most if the VR team is doing this project on a minimal budget. That means the care enough, even if they don't get rich. I prefer to put my faith in them over highly paid drones just punching a clock.
I am not claiming they are perfect or even right. But I donated enough to show that I am willing to give them a chance before I rain on their parade.
I never played EQ after Velious so the itemization seemed rewarding to me. Most games after that seemed to throw magical items at you from an early level. Given the choice, I prefer a more conservative approach of rare magical gear / smaller stat buffs. I like the sensation of "wow" when I find something -- instead of "how many greens and blues do I need to vendor/disenchant".
Yeah, super confusing topic. As I went through, I had several comments I wanted to make that were lost when the discussion changed yet again...lol. I think the first thing I wanted to say was that I miss spell circles and would definitely prefer that they made a comeback rather than new spells every level or every two levels. I agree that no matter what numbers you start with, they will eventually become very large if the game is successful enough, so why not start small? As long as the newbie mobs are still hitting for fours, you'll feel that much more powerful with your 980154 shot. Maybe we should all be hoping that this game is successful enough for that type of inflation to even be an issue? As far as gathering sets of environmental gear for more of a horizontal progression, I kind of like the idea of needing resist sets again. I'm not sure they are designing it so you'll need complete sets for each environment, though it will surely be an option. I think the gear was just a part of acclimating to an environment...I thought you were going to also be able to use spells/buffs and even condition (skill/train) yourself to survive in specific environments. That way, you could use any combination of those methods to get the the level of acclimation you need to reach.
As far as ability progression, I would much rather get a linear progression based on player level or associated skill level than big jumps at specific player levels when you can train a newer version of the same ability. When a new ability circle comes around, I don't just want upgrades to the abilities I already have unless they add something to the ability like going from single target to AOE or add an extra component to it.
At level 1 I get an ability that lets me stab someone. As I get more levels in the game and practice my one-handed piercing or whatever, I should hit more often and hit harder with that same attack. I shouldn't need to reach level 12 to get an ability that says, "stab harder" that gives me a jump in the amount of damage I do, but no other change. Now if you want to give me a "stab harder AND chance to stun" ability, that makes more sense.
I shouldn't need a Shield of Thistles and several levels later a Shield of Barbs. The shield of thistles is just fine... as my druid casts it more and more...and goes up in toon levels, it should just grow in damage it does and how long it lasts and how much mana it costs to use. Getting excited over reaching the "barbs" level is kinda silly unless the "barbs" spell was going to do something more... like add elemental damage to the damage shield or group wide instead of single target.
I'm just saying I don't feel like I'm getting screwed if I don't get a new name for the same ability every few levels. But if you want to make me happy about reaching a particular level, let me improve that ability by adding new effects like elemental effects or some other equally brilliant addition you guys are far more suited to come up with than I am.
bluefoxcode said:As far as ability progression, I would much rather get a linear progression based on player level or associated skill level than big jumps at specific player levels when you can train a newer version of the same ability. When a new ability circle comes around, I don't just want upgrades to the abilities I already have unless they add something to the ability like going from single target to AOE or add an extra component to it.
At level 1 I get an ability that lets me stab someone. As I get more levels in the game and practice my one-handed piercing or whatever, I should hit more often and hit harder with that same attack. I shouldn't need to reach level 12 to get an ability that says, "stab harder" that gives me a jump in the amount of damage I do, but no other change. Now if you want to give me a "stab harder AND chance to stun" ability, that makes more sense.
I shouldn't need a Shield of Thistles and several levels later a Shield of Barbs. The shield of thistles is just fine... as my druid casts it more and more...and goes up in toon levels, it should just grow in damage it does and how long it lasts and how much mana it costs to use. Getting excited over reaching the "barbs" level is kinda silly unless the "barbs" spell was going to do something more... like add elemental damage to the damage shield or group wide instead of single target.
I'm just saying I don't feel like I'm getting screwed if I don't get a new name for the same ability every few levels. But if you want to make me happy about reaching a particular level, let me improve that ability by adding new effects like elemental effects or some other equally brilliant addition you guys are far more suited to come up with than I am.
Exactly.
I can't argue with the logic of that, but I always enjoyed the names EverQuest spells had. Stinging Swarm...Creeping Crud...Drones of Doom...Drifting Death... I definitely prefer that to Stinging Swarm I, Stinging Swarm II, Stinging Swarm III, and Stinging Swarm IV, but it does kind of make sense to just have Stinging Swarm and have it grow with you. But then you wouldn't be able to put four stacks of Stinging Swarm on something while you -could- stack Stinging Swarm, Creeping Crud, Drifting Death, and Drones of Doom if you wanted to do that, so that's one issue with that method. I guess spells did grow with you in EverQuest, but it was only over a few levels. I also like the idea of leveling up spells/abilities with use. Like if you could have a Stinging Swarm skill similar to your 1hb or whatever. Can only go up five points per level...if you don't use it, it's going to suck. I guess they kind of did that with the casting skills like alteration, conjuration, evocation, etc, though.
Shucklighter said:I can't argue with the logic of that, but I always enjoyed the names EverQuest spells had. Stinging Swarm...Creeping Crud...Drones of Doom...Drifting Death... I definitely prefer that to Stinging Swarm I, Stinging Swarm II, Stinging Swarm III, and Stinging Swarm IV, but it does kind of make sense to just have Stinging Swarm and have it grow with you. But then you wouldn't be able to put four stacks of Stinging Swarm on something while you -could- stack Stinging Swarm, Creeping Crud, Drifting Death, and Drones of Doom if you wanted to do that, so that's one issue with that method. I guess spells did grow with you in EverQuest, but it was only over a few levels. I also like the idea of leveling up spells/abilities with use. Like if you could have a Stinging Swarm skill similar to your 1hb or whatever. Can only go up five points per level...if you don't use it, it's going to suck. I guess they kind of did that with the casting skills like alteration, conjuration, evocation, etc, though.
I agree. The names were good. I think some of them were taken right from Dungeons and Dragons second edition. Having numbers suffixed to the end of the names is easier and clearer, but not as nice sounding.