Everquests abilities > Overkill early on:
Remember when EQ started off with AC, HP etc... and then we progressed using Resists, and other stats.
Well my biggest concern was the fact EQ did something completely wrong, and it hurt many of us. They nerfed the **** out of our characters and forced many of us to abandon the game.
Why was that?
Well there was many people that explained, parsed, and tried to help repair the existing system.
A) We just got way to powerful early on, and the later years we just did not have any room for upgrades.
What are your thoughts on what happened to that system? was it exactly as they said they opps F'ed up early on and kept giving us way to many stats and had no room to grow... thus forced to nerf mostly all classes. Or do you think it was because they just didnt want to keep adding new abilities, and progressions.. I felt it was many different factors what caused the problems.
At first i was told in the forums it was because of people abusing the existing system when nerfs first started to be done. Then everyone was blamed for a couple of people. Then we find out it was because some of the stats where not allowing the team to move again.
We had so many excuses, but to me it should of been handled from after 2004-2005 correctly. Everything was fine at the start, and a few years afterwards. Once the team got a hold of it, they upped so many stats that nobody reconized this early on.
But there was rumors also that they didnt want to reorganize abilities and AA's etc.. that they had no more ideas for the game. Is that true i have no idea.
What do you think? Should games becareful at the start, and re evaluate the expansions, each and every time to avoid what happened in EQ a Large BF nerf.
Diminishing Returns = The Devil
A lot of games use it and personally I think it is a bad idea.
Great for a game with a fixed ending but for a game where longevity is a must and the game essentially has no end, it does not work well in my opinion
No clue how VR is doing Pantheon but I'd be sad if diminishing returns was used
I really liked the original abilities for casters and hybrids in Everquest. I think you got spell upgrades every few levels and it was different for each type. Pure casters got new spells the fastest, healers were next I believe, and then hybrids were the slowest because they combined two different classes. There were always sweet spot levels where you would get a lot of nice new abilities to use. For Druid I recall it being around level 14 or 15 when you got Spirit of the Wolf and your first damage over time spell (Stringing Swarm) I believe. When you got to those levels in the original game it felt like a big achievement. After that point you usually got upgrades to spells or the spells increased in power depending on your level.
I like the concepts I've seen so far in videos where they talk about new spells and abilities being difficult to acquire if they are powerful. In original EQ you had to find components for many spells to craft them and I don't recall you being told where to get them.
Good topic to bring up.
Power creep is inevitable because players need increasingly more powerful items as reward incentives as they progress. I often think game developers should GREATLY diminish stat upgrades on gear, damage of weapons and spells etc as we progress. I'd like to see it scaled way back. I have seen the need for this already.
I noticed in the last stream there was that neck piece that dropped that had 20 hp/mana and some other stats. Those characters were what? Lvl 13 off the top of my head?
Even if it is just a flat growth rate we will have items that are in the 80-100 hp/mana +a bunch of other stats at the high end on release with a lvl 50 cap. That is ridiculous in my opinion. An expansion or three down the line every player will have gear that has hundreds of hp/mana per item!
That leads to the inevitable nerf that Crazzie mentioned.
A better way to handle it would be to scale it way back now. Maybe at lvl 13 it should be +1 to two stats and +2 hp/mana from the boss? A Lvl 50 neck item might have +4-6 to a few stats with 10-12 hp/mana. That allows at least a little bit more room for growth. I'm not going to claim to know the best way to balance these stats in comparison to mob output/damage. Balancing stats and scaling rewards are something we have to have faith in the devs on because we don't have all the requisite information. It does seem like some of the stats we have seen on low level items at this early stage have been inflated way to high though.
This is one of those things that needs to be addressed sooner than later.
To do it any other way would require more calculation which is why i suspect most developers code the way they do.
3 basic ways I can think of
All very simple compared to something more complex. Each way has there ups and downs. Some are good for some stats, other for different stats.
In a game like Pantheon, I don't think any of them are good options but they are soooooo simple
One causes crazy large number eventually, another causes things to stop being worth going after, and the last makes games feel very static
I wish I had a good solution and I offer my help to the devs on this but it is probably way to late to change what they have done with this.
Backin said:To do it any other way would require more calculation which is why i suspect most developers code the way they do.
QFT.
I almost delved into that in my post above but it started getting a little technical so I deleted it and just basically said that we have to have faith in the devs.
That is the issue though. It is more difficult to balance.
Mostly talking about max-level. But I would have stats of gear be pretty much equal/similar in value and focus more on having different combinations of stats and unique effects tied to the gear rather than just having content that is just a progression from one stat stick to a stronger stat stick.
I guess a more technical and mathematical way of saying it would be that I would prefer something akin to a Logarithmic Curve/Decaying Curve.
O(Log n) on this basically.
//Voices of Terminus' Youmu Svartie
Biggest factor in the 'too much stats' problem was the fact that had EQ had too many slots to fill. What's the point of having charms and the like? Why do we need 2 different bracers when it could just 1 set of bracers? There are easier ways to handle it by reducing some of the slots which limits the amount of stats obtainable.
Youmu said:Mostly talking about max-level. But I would have stats of gear be pretty much equal/similar in value and focus more on having different combinations of stats and unique effects tied to the gear rather than just having content that is just a progression from one stat stick to a stronger stat stick.
I guess a more technical and mathematical way of saying it would be that I would prefer something akin to a Logarithmic Curve/Decaying Curve.
O(Log n) on this basically.
//Voices of Terminus' Youmu Svartie
Do you think that would offer players enough incentive? I am unsure. Linear gear progression has turned people off in other games.
Focusing on unique effects would be good. I like that but it does lead to a similar boat where if gear stats aren't upgrading the player needs better and better effects as incentive.
Enitzu said:Biggest factor in the 'too much stats' problem was the fact that had EQ had too many slots to fill. What's the point of having charms and the like? Why do we need 2 different bracers when it could just 1 set of bracers? There are easier ways to handle it by reducing some of the slots which limits the amount of stats obtainable.
"to much stats" isn't the problem at all...well it is in the end, but it is how we got there that is the issue. The problem is the rate of increase of those stats from upgrading one item to the next. It is the same problem whether you have 1 gear slot or 50.
Maybe the problem is that people need to reassess thier view? If no one saw anything wrong with having thousands of stats on a piece of gear it wouldn't be an issue.
I have no idea what OP is talking about. Can someone give me a helping hand? Is this about stat inflation? Why are we talking about nerfs? I'm lost.
Liav said:I have no idea what OP is talking about. Can someone give me a help hand? Is this about stat inflation? Why are we talking about nerfs? I'm lost.
Its a big topic. that is part of it. This thread is more about preventing the need for the nerfing by planning, etc
This topic is a pain in the ass to talk about cause it is sooooo complicated at its roots and its simplicity.
Yay, math!!!!
stat inflation, nerfing, longevity of game, and much more is all part of this topic. It all has a factor. Such a huge topic. It will make me finish going bald.
I am a fan of many item slots. I like to work and plan out, research, every piece for improvements. Is it not natural to want to improve yourself in a world or help others do the same?
However, I think the improvements should be smaller scale upgrades and not have items out there that go over the top. We all know that in time, characters will have all of these top level items in slot and therefore, become overpowered for intended content.
I think as long as items are controlled and not too powerful versus typical item upgrades, things should be fine. I remember when Paw of Opolla was a "major" item for its time, looking back, it seems so small of an impact today. This is a good example of an item upgrade that is not over the top, and also one that had a major quest to obtain it... This is great. I remember that these items had "fame" within the game but did not throw things over the top.
As far as balancing the game around current game play, I would imagine they would use a stat average to determine diffficulty of encounters and or respawn rates. Those above average would have an easier time, which makes perfect sense.
I think future expansions blow it when they introduce item upgrades that completely wipe away previous sentimental or sought after items. This is what I saw the most in EQ expansions... I believe only toward the top end of the new expansion should items clearly be better than previous game version.
I believe they have already stated that they are planning gear several years out. They have experience in games and seen the badness happen. I think we should wait and see what they planned before we complain.
Also, the pure numbers themselves are meaningless unless we know the formulas being used. Someone complained about +20 to a stat when they think it should only be +2. That statement is meaningless without the context the formula provides.
Right now, we have no idea how much of a stat it takes to make a difference.
But, I do prefer linear progression.
Also, I prefer as many item slots as possible, especially since I plan to play a hybrid class. This allows for maximum customization. But, that does not have to mean higher levels of bonuses. Instead of making 10 slots with +10 each, make 20 slots with +5 each.
I would like to know how many stats will be on each item, such as STR only or STR/INT. This is important for hybrids.
philo said:Enitzu said:Biggest factor in the 'too much stats' problem was the fact that had EQ had too many slots to fill. What's the point of having charms and the like? Why do we need 2 different bracers when it could just 1 set of bracers? There are easier ways to handle it by reducing some of the slots which limits the amount of stats obtainable.
"to much stats" isn't the problem at all...well it is in the end, but it is how we got there that is the issue. The problem is the rate of increase of those stats from upgrading one item to the next. It is the same problem whether you have 1 gear slot or 50.
Maybe the problem is that people need to reassess thier view? If no one saw anything wrong with having thousands of stats on a piece of gear it wouldn't be an issue.
If you played EQ from classic to velious, then you'd know that the stats did not actually move much. They grew but it was nothing spectacular. That is the only era people here need to look at as that was the only ones that Brad was involved with. The 'rate of increase' that people are refering to didn't really start until PoP and later with the current and past few expansions being completely stupid. Seriously, gear has like 10 stats on it and a ton of other crap now. It's too much. But comparing classic stuff to kunark stuff, there really wasn't that great of a difference. Kunark to Velious was pretty similar until you get to NToV and such and by the time you were full NToV geared you still weren't maxing all stats.
So using the early gearing from EQ with stat caps and taking out a few slots would easily delay the power creep. We don't need gear with 5+ stats on them (outside of resists). We need to have choices so we pick the ones that work best for us. If a rogue can max out str, dex, and con then the dev's have failed.
Crazzie said:Everquests abilities > Overkill early on:
Remember when EQ started off with AC, HP etc... and then we progressed using Resists, and other stats.
Well my biggest concern was the fact EQ did something completely wrong, and it hurt many of us. They nerfed the **** out of our characters and forced many of us to abandon the game.
Why was that?
Well there was many people that explained, parsed, and tried to help repair the existing system.
A) We just got way to powerful early on, and the later years we just did not have any room for upgrades.
To be blunt, resistances were always part of the game, but you had to make sacrifices elsewhere to see those resists pay-off. That is what was lost just a few expansions later. No longer were characters needing to specifically outfit against a specific damage type.
I will agree that EQ developers did not believe their game would last as long as it has so the rate of power growth was not a component of the game given which, on the surface, was given little consideration. Did that result in some serious nerfs now and then? Yes, and those nerfs were critical for the health of the game. Only those who cannot see why an item/ability/whatever not being nerfed can utterly destroy a game are people only in a gme for their own self interest.
Remember the original incarnation of the Donals Breastplate, the one with the 30 sec cast, right-click Complete Heal? Can you, or anybody, say that item didn't need a huge nerf?
Nerfs are necessary, and the quicker broken or overwpowered items are identified and brought into line with everything else the better.
I just hope the stats on items don't become SO important you HAVE to min/max to be effective enough for a group to have you tag along. I'm all about getting the best gear I can so I can be productive on my group, but if I calculated wrong and went over the soft cap on one stat to the detriment of another stat, I really don't everyone inspecting me as I join in the group and saying, "sorry bud, you should go get yourself these Fancy Pants and change out of those floppy clown shoes 'cause you are too full of wisdom and not enough dexterity."
Enitzu said:philo said:Enitzu said:Biggest factor in the 'too much stats' problem was the fact that had EQ had too many slots to fill. What's the point of having charms and the like? Why do we need 2 different bracers when it could just 1 set of bracers? There are easier ways to handle it by reducing some of the slots which limits the amount of stats obtainable.
"to much stats" isn't the problem at all...well it is in the end, but it is how we got there that is the issue. The problem is the rate of increase of those stats from upgrading one item to the next. It is the same problem whether you have 1 gear slot or 50.
Maybe the problem is that people need to reassess thier view? If no one saw anything wrong with having thousands of stats on a piece of gear it wouldn't be an issue.
If you played EQ from classic to velious, then you'd know that the stats did not actually move much. They grew but it was nothing spectacular. That is the only era people here need to look at as that was the only ones that Brad was involved with. The 'rate of increase' that people are refering to didn't really start until PoP and later with the current and past few expansions being completely stupid. Seriously, gear has like 10 stats on it and a ton of other crap now. It's too much. But comparing classic stuff to kunark stuff, there really wasn't that great of a difference. Kunark to Velious was pretty similar until you get to NToV and such and by the time you were full NToV geared you still weren't maxing all stats.
So using the early gearing from EQ with stat caps and taking out a few slots would easily delay the power creep. We don't need gear with 5+ stats on them (outside of resists). We need to have choices so we pick the ones that work best for us. If a rogue can max out str, dex, and con then the dev's have failed.
You are correct that the stat creep wasn't extremely noticable until PoP but EQ released in 99 and Velious in late 2000. As far as stat creep goes that time period is a drop in the bucket. No one should expect there to be noticable stat inflation in a year and a half unless the game has been itemized very poorly. Hopefully they are planning for stat inflation much further out than a year or 2.
To fairly address the issue it needs to be looked at from more of a longterm point of view.
Also, it's not about maximizing stats. We don't have any clue what maxes are. It's more about how some people don't like seeing overly inflated numbers. Some people have a problem with gear that is +1000 or +10000 to a stat regardless of the max. They don't like seeing 9875234 damage. They would rather see 98 dmg.
Where the numbers are in relation to everything is irrelevant.
Like mentioned before, maybe the issue is that people need to change their point of view on that (easier said than done). If people were ok with seeing thousands of stats on an item then this thread wouldn't need to exist. Everyone would be ok with stat inflation and power creep as long as it was balanced. I could make an educated guess that some peoples aversion to such high stat numbers stems from D&Ds influence...but that is a whole other conversation.
This is such a tough topic because no matter where you start, you always want to go up. Even tabletop games offer stat books that increase your stats permanently. If the game wants tro continue off indefinately, stats will eventually reach infinity.
Power scaling like WoW is ridiculous because the progression self corrects. Yes, you can hit for 20K instead of 20, but the mobs now have 100K hp instead of 100.
Horizontal progression is where the win lies, but thats not infinite either. Early EQ had started out great IMO. With classic, it was stats, hp/mp, and resists. In kunark they added hp/mana regen, and focus effects. By velious you could quest for regens and foci, but they added more focis and hard to get spells. by luclin they had to cap us on regen and they pushed more on self clickies. Thats horizontal expansion planned out 4 expansions, that wasn't bad at the time. Nowadays, the problem is that you need those focus/regen effects to efficiently have fun soloing (cause its a solo game), so they are almost given to you via newbie tasks.
Although the stats are pre alpha, their character sheets are rarely over 18. I would like to see more calculations based of the typical D&D stats. Some stats would start at 10, and gear rarely added to stats, when it did, it was +1. You would then collect you gear around minimizing negative modifiers. I would like to see a return to that, but still, if you play infinitely, you will always have power creep. The only thing they can do to avoid it is never add to stats, then you lose progression. They plan on horizontal progression, so we may see more of an EQ plan where you add a new game mechanic with an expansion and provide the means to min/max the new mechanic in the expansion.
Luckily, we know resists are important due to the atmosphere system. Also, if the game is as I understand, there will be no BEST item, since fights will vary significantly. Sometimes you want slashing, sometimes bludgeon, others flame, ice, or something else.
You will need to collect many types of weapons/armor and switch out between fights.
I remember raiding in the Ward of Elements in EQ2. You had to spec out resist gear that was more important than your normal stat gear.