Enitzu said:You're right that it doesn't require the use of macros. However, when I can use macros to have those 12 run a 4 spell sequence with the touch of 1 button, macros do become a part of the equation.
So what exactly are you going for? You're obviously against programs such as MQ2 but want to keep macroing as it was in EQ?
Pretty much, yeah.
You could use AutoHotkey to achieve the same thing without in-game macros. It's a difficult problem to circumvent, but realistically, allowing limited in-game macros similar to EQ's system can't really hurt things. If they wanted to, they could even go so far as to not have the macros tied to ability use whatsoever and be restricted to simplifying slash commands and/or chat commands.
That's the thing. Macro use has become practically synonymous with automation, botting, ability usage, etc. to the part where there are about half a dozen replies in this thread making references to them. It doesn't have to be that way.
If I want to make a guild recruitment message spam "macro", there is no practical way to do so without the system. The same can be said of various slash commands that don't necessarily have to be tied to ability usage.
Liav said:Enitzu said:You're right that it doesn't require the use of macros. However, when I can use macros to have those 12 run a 4 spell sequence with the touch of 1 button, macros do become a part of the equation.
So what exactly are you going for? You're obviously against programs such as MQ2 but want to keep macroing as it was in EQ?
Pretty much, yeah.
You could use AutoHotkey to achieve the same thing without in-game macros. It's a difficult problem to circumvent, but realistically, allowing limited in-game macros similar to EQ's system can't really hurt things. If they wanted to, they could even go so far as to not have the macros tied to ability use whatsoever and be restricted to simplifying slash commands and/or chat commands.
That's the thing. Macro use has become practically synonymous with automation, botting, ability usage, etc. to the part where there are about half a dozen replies in this thread making references to them. It doesn't have to be that way.
If I want to make a guild recruitment message spam "macro", there is no practical way to do so without the system. The same can be said of various slash commands that don't necessarily have to be tied to ability usage.
It's also worth it to point out the downside of macro's used in the way you describe Enitzu. Yes, you could automate the casting a multiple spells in sequence. But if you get fizzles or interupts in there, the macro can and often does break in ways that are a PITA to deal with. While it might be a great convenience if everything goes according to plan, it can also be a complication that requires player skill and attention to manage when the plan goes to hell.
Reht said:Yeah, i love how people confuse isboxer and MQ quite frequently.
What exactly is the difference? Does it even matter if they are different as they are both 3rd party and therefore not allowed?
these are serious questions as I am not familiar with any of the automating software out there.
Sevens said:What exactly is the difference? Does it even matter if they are different as they are both 3rd party and therefore not allowed?
these are serious questions as I am not familiar with any of the automating software out there.
ISBoxer just simplifies the process of boxing multiple clients with a nice UI and various keybinding shortcuts. This software is generally not explicitly disallowed in the EULA. Not only that but it's virtually impossible to detect. ISBoxer isn't really "cheating". It doesn't interact with the client in any way that you couldn't do so yourself.
MQ2 goes way beyond the scope of that, and I won't get into it here.
Sevens said:What exactly is the difference? Does it even matter if they are different as they are both 3rd party and therefore not allowed?
these are serious questions as I am not familiar with any of the automating software out there.
Liav summed it up nicely, just want to add that DBG approved the use of isboxer for EQ1, with exception of the truebox code servers.
Feyshtey said:Liav said:Enitzu said:You're right that it doesn't require the use of macros. However, when I can use macros to have those 12 run a 4 spell sequence with the touch of 1 button, macros do become a part of the equation.
So what exactly are you going for? You're obviously against programs such as MQ2 but want to keep macroing as it was in EQ?
Pretty much, yeah.
You could use AutoHotkey to achieve the same thing without in-game macros. It's a difficult problem to circumvent, but realistically, allowing limited in-game macros similar to EQ's system can't really hurt things. If they wanted to, they could even go so far as to not have the macros tied to ability use whatsoever and be restricted to simplifying slash commands and/or chat commands.
That's the thing. Macro use has become practically synonymous with automation, botting, ability usage, etc. to the part where there are about half a dozen replies in this thread making references to them. It doesn't have to be that way.
If I want to make a guild recruitment message spam "macro", there is no practical way to do so without the system. The same can be said of various slash commands that don't necessarily have to be tied to ability usage.
It's also worth it to point out the downside of macro's used in the way you describe Enitzu. Yes, you could automate the casting a multiple spells in sequence. But if you get fizzles or interupts in there, the macro can and often does break in ways that are a PITA to deal with. While it might be a great convenience if everything goes according to plan, it can also be a complication that requires player skill and attention to manage when the plan goes to hell.
Fizzles wouldn't break the macros. It simply cancels the 1 cast and when running 12 characters, 1 fizzle means little to nothing. But that is off topic.
@Liav - I agree with not getting rid of macros altogether. My thoughts are more to prevent macro scripting. Meaning being able to string together ability after ability. You can in some ways get around it with abilities that are off the global cd in wow but for the most part the lack of a pause or wait feature kills the ability to basically automate a rotation with the press of 1 button. It's definitely not the same as some of the programs and the ability to do these things is limited in comparision but it still does exist. Limiting the functionality of some of the macroing features also in turn limits what some of these programs can do as most do in fact use these macros. MQ2 began because of the level of functionality that the macroing system in EQ had. So in order to break these things, change needs to happen.
The game should minimize macros in game. They just create spam and laziness, at least ones with multiple actions. Simple target, assist, and similar macros are fine.
However, no matter what VR does, most fancy keyboards have programmable settings that allow timing of multiple commands with a single stroke anyways.
Beefcake said:The game should minimize macros in game. They just create spam and laziness, at least ones with multiple actions. Simple target, assist, and similar macros are fine.
However, no matter what VR does, most fancy keyboards have programmable settings that allow timing of multiple commands with a single stroke anyways.
There's a fine line IMHO. Hand timed and executed CHeal Rotations were a nightmare for long fights. I don't think anybody would say that using a execute-pause-execute macro for something like that (singular ability) created a huge advantage.
But yes, I tend to agree. You shouldn't be able to "automate" combat.
Maximis said:Youmu said:There won't really be a need to have an insane amount of hotbars and keybinds in Pantheon as they did mention going with a limited amount of abilities/spells active at a time kind of system. And even then I feel 99.9% sure that extra hotbars will be a thing and already are a thing as seen on the stream.
Shaman from stream:
Cohhcarnage from stream on rogue:
In fact I think this answers many things as what I see is the mentioned. Ranged Attack, Melee Attack, Pet Control. Only thing is having all those be bindable and maybe have macro's which would allow you to do stuff like /target [party 1], but to tell the truth I think there will be keybinding available for that in game and no need to make a hotkey for it using commands. (I actually thing even WoW has party target keybinds)
I feel positive that from the keybinds point of view you will be satisfied.
//Voices of Terminus' Youmu Svartie
What you have pointed out is the Rogue stances not a second hotbar. I forgot the exact word they used for them but they were non-operational for the stream.
These look very similar to the stances that were found in VG. Most classes had them (maybe all classes had them??) But they gave different playstyles to the classes that had them. Pally had a defensive stance, dps stance, and a healing stance. They were not part of any hotbar, they were simply a small UI box that you could move around yourself and place wherever you wanted them. Now, I believe you could make a macro of them and then put them on your hot bar but outside of that they were their own little UI box.
Brad and Co. have stated they are fine with macros but don't want the ability to combine numerous skills into one macro to which a player can cast most to all of their abilities with one button. I believe just having the limited spell slots alone will help this problem since players will not have access to all of their abilities at any single moment. Plus it's not hard to design an MMO with macros that prohibit this.
VG allowed it to a large degree but not as bad as some newer MMOs such as Rift. I remember in VG as a bard I could macro a couple skills together and spam that but then had to have many other buttons for many other combat skills. Some skills just couldn't be macroed into a single key and I believe the team wants PRF to have even less macro power than what was in VG.
Even though we are having limited spell slots, I hope that we will have use for multiple hotbars because I am the type to make macros for any situation and like to have them at the ready as well as just liking having many skills to use at any given moment. (I'm a big fan of VG's unlimited spell slots)
I'm in favor of a limit, but there's a suggestion that I would really, really like to see implemented.
In a lot of games that do limited abilities, it normally comes down to X amount of skills available at a time. The problem with this system is that it guts the ability to use interesting abilities that are not exactly super powerful, or has a significant delay. This is because you have a few "must have" abilities, and by the time you're almost out of room...there is just never any room left to pick up "fun" abilities or "long cooldown but situational" abilities. There's a lot of fun things you COULD do, but it's put to the backburner to make room for more "useful" abilities that aren't as situational.
Instead, I propose the following:
Instead of having X amount of ability slots, create X amount slot types.
In general, each ability gets classified as one of the following
Low cooldown
Medium cooldown
Long cooldown
Situational
Vanity\Fun
etc...
You'll get X amount of limited slots for each catagory. That way, you'll always have room for some of those situational abilities that you would otherwise never be able to put on your ability bar. That really awesome spell that you can never use since it's once per hour, if not day? Well, now you actually can equip it, as it wouldn't "eat" a normal MMO's simple "X amount of slots" style.
Overall, you'd be balancing a player's ability output based on them having a variety of cooldowns and situational spells instead of a blanket "10 slots" that always have to be filled with "optimal in most situations" abilities which don't allow for abilities that cover situational situations.
It'd be a lot more fun to be able to use situational and fun abilities without it hurting us.
