Liav said:They still seem categorically different to me.
For instance, barring use of MQ2, I have a mouse macro that spams the F7 key which is then bound to 3 separate spammable skills on my bar. That would be the multibinding example you're using.
AA abilities that are castable during spell refresh, to my knowledge, aren't dependent on a macro to be able to do so. I'm going to be completely honest and say that all of these factors need to be controlled through the combat system. Whether or not macros are included in the game is, quite frankly, irrelevant. You can emulate a lot of these behaviors in any game already without the need for an internal macro system.
If the way you interact with the game is limited to a certain number of simultaneous inputs, that helps. If the way macros are setup doesn't allow you to have multiple abilities in a single macro, instead only allowing you a maximum of one ability and a chat message, that helps.
None of your concerns are intrinsic in a macro system, only in the macro systems within the games that you're talking about.
I have no concerns about a macro system, if it's present i will use. They may intrisically different to you, but you appear to be looking at it from a systems perspective, i am looking at it from a purely results perspective. My point is that you can use EQ's native systems to mimic Rift's one button macros if you know what you are doing. And no, you shouldn't need to macro AAs to use them in EQ, but for some reason the system only recognizes the first AA in the multibind if you bind them using multiple hotbar slots, so you have to uses macros if you want to do use more than one, without having to press them manually, it's one of those weird things they haven't fixed.
Reht said:I have no concerns about a macro system, if it's present i will use. They may intrisically different to you, but you appear to be looking at it from a systems perspective, i am looking at it from a purely results perspective. My point is that you can use EQ's native systems to mimic Rift's one button macros if you know what you are doing. And no, you shouldn't need to macro AAs to use them in EQ, but for some reason the system only recognizes the first AA in the multibind if you bind them using multiple hotbar slots, so you have to uses macros if you want to do use more than one, without having to press them manually, it's one of those weird things they haven't fixed.
Understood. Thanks for the information wrt EQ's macro system. I haven't played live in a few years and iirc I remember having an issue like that with Banestrike on my Monk.
Liav said:Backin said: Pause/wait commands must not exist. That is macro/scripting. It ruins games. They already said no to that. That much we know. Not what i was going afterPause has existed in EQ for years and it hasn't ruined the game.
You say "macro" like it's a bad word. There are plenty of legitimate, non-game breaking uses for macros. It also has nothing to do with scripting. The developers haven't commented on this at all.
You say it hasn't ruined the game but it really has. Having the ability to add a pause allows for the building of a 1 button rotation ala Rift where you press 1 button and it fires off your entire rotation literally automating the game for you. This is why it is so easy to multi box huge numbers in EQ. If they do not allow a pause then you have to become more creative with the macro to use more than 1 ability from 1 key press.
@OP - You're blowing things out of proportion really. Most of what you talk about are usual changable keybinds in the options menu.
Youmu said:Guys, I think we have strayed away from the OP's topic of keyboard ONLY players and the viability of that playstyle in pantheon somewhat.
It's not quite that restrictive of a topic. Binding custom functions is in fact exactly what OP is asking about.
I'm sure OP uses a mouse to control their camera, unless they have a disability of some kind. Given that they didn't say that, I'm pretty sure they're just saying that (like most modern gamers), they like to use keybinds as opposed to clicking everything, and that having only 10 potential bindable buttons is highly restrictive.
Enitzu said:You say it hasn't ruined the game but it really has. Having the ability to add a pause allows for the building of a 1 button rotation ala Rift where you press 1 button and it fires off your entire rotation literally automating the game for you. This is why it is so easy to multi box huge numbers in EQ. If they do not allow a pause then you have to become more creative with the macro to use more than 1 ability from 1 key press.
@OP - You're blowing things out of proportion really. Most of what you talk about are usual changable keybinds in the options menu.
Lol. MacroQuest2 is what allows you to multibox huge numbers in EQ. Don't conflate MacroQuest2 with "macros".
Pause has existed in EQ since day 1, and it has been used almost exclusively for CH rotations. If Pause ruined EQ, then EQ was ruined the first 5 minutes it went live.
You're absolutely wrong. I don't mean that in a mean spirited way, I mean you are literally incorrect.
Liav said:It's not quite that restrictive of a topic. Binding custom functions is in fact exactly what OP is asking about.
I'm sure OP uses a mouse to control their camera, unless they have a disability of some kind. Given that they didn't say that, I'm pretty sure they're just saying that (like most modern gamers), they like to use keybinds as opposed to clicking everything, and that having only 10 potential bindable buttons is highly restrictive.
//Voices of Terminus' Yoiumu Svartie
Youmu said:
I was mostly refering to the discussion of things like GCD, macros and automation that was going on.
My belief is that they have moved most of those function away from having to make a macro and bind it to a key on your hotbar to be integrated as a seperate bind in the game.
I'm curious to know the process for making it custom, then. A /shout or /ooc guild recruitment message, a pulling message, etc. Adding a macro system that is heavily restricted or only allows for chat commands seems like a way to save some dev time there. I could be wrong. It's just that I can think of many, many custom functions that don't automate the game in any way, but so many of them that it'd be unreasonable to expect the devs to accomodate an exhaustive list.
I am not saying to remove macro's. I am saying that I do not believe macro's will be necessary for things such as /assist, toggling AA/Ranged attack, Pet commands. As I think that they would make these into just seperate bind withing the keybindings menu instead of having to make a macro for them, what I see macros be for is things such as chat messages you need to "spam" or "/cast Heal on target [Liav]". Very specific use things instead of more general stuff.
//Voices of Terminus' Yoiumu Svartie
There needs to be made a couple of distinctions that appear to be getting lost on most.
First, Backin I disagree with your comment that they sait things like /pause would not be used because that's a macro. I don't think that's what's been said by the devs at all. What has been said is that they will not allow 3rd party apps to automate gameplay or provide utility not specifically provided in the game engine. But they have said (and I'll look for the post) that there will be the ability to create in game macro's, giving them the abiliity to manage what will and will not be allowed. Kilsin has discussed how he has used in-game macro's heavily in the past, and thinks they are a wonderful way to help. He may not (officially) be a dev, but he certainly understands the intents of the devs.
Second, the number of actions you can have available to you for combat, and the number of hotkey slots that one might available for use are also two very different things. It is an entirely accurately statement to say that in EQ1 any magic user could only ever have 8 "abilities" queued up for use, in the form of the spells that fit in their mem slots. But they had 10 pages of hotkeys to work with for all those things that are not "abilities". Translating that kind of system to melee's or making every class limited to 10 slots within which they must prepare skills for a given encounter does not inherently negate the possibility of having many more hotkeys that allow for those queued abilities (and things not considered "abilities") to be utilizied in a myriad of streamlined ways. Not to mention that I doubt they would make you consume 1 of 10 vitally important ability keys for /assist, and another for /target maintank, or /follow, or 1000 other mundane commands.
Enitzu said:You say it hasn't ruined the game but it really has. Having the ability to add a pause allows for the building of a 1 button rotation ala Rift where you press 1 button and it fires off your entire rotation literally automating the game for you. This is why it is so easy to multi box huge numbers in EQ. If they do not allow a pause then you have to become more creative with the macro to use more than 1 ability from 1 key press.
Correct me if i am wrong, but seems like you think that a one button Rift macro fires off your entire rotation in succession one after another with a single key press, it doesn't, it just fires off the first available ability within the macro line.
This topic has gotten off the topic I intended it to be about, maybe that is my fault in how I worded stuff. Didn't want this to be about what can and cannot be macroed/scripted, what that means, etc.
It was intended to be about adding some functionality to the game. Making sure we have the capability to customize the game to our play styles, keyboard players and mouse players alike. A lot of this is crossover but some affect keyboard more.
Raising awareness to the need for multiple hotbars, slash commands for various reasons. Yes, there are games that say where certain things cannot be customized at all or it is very restrictive. Do I think that will happen in Pantheon? No. Am I concerned how much customization there will be to allow for different play styles? Absolutely. Far too many games have turned me off because of lack of customization. It is better to talk about it now rather than later and be sorry it wasn't brought up at all.
Again, all of my concerns come from the perspective of a keyboard player. More often than not we are looked over or have limted customization. In EQ2 I did play the game with mainly just a keyboard because of purely preference. Very few things I had to do with a mouse. Ill paint a picture for you all. I use my left hand for movement on the directional arrows, had Num 0 set to push to talk for Vent, Home to recenter camera, Page up and Page down for camera angle, arrows to turn the camera but not the character because EQ2 had the options to do so which allowed me to watch my surroundings. Right hand was using on rest of the keyboard for all the windows, targeting, casting, jumping, etc. 1-0,-,= for spells/abilities Alt + them again for 2nd hotbar, F1-F6 for group targeting, F8 was nearest target, F7 was for next nearest target, ~ was to open bags. I can go on.
I have a unique play style, for good or for worse, and with how many games I have been disappointed by due to lack of options/customization, I have concerns and to a degree, skepticism. Time will tell what we end up with but again, it is better to talk about it now rather than wait.
Not sure if this helps or not but hope it does.
Reht said:Correct me if i am wrong, but seems like you think that a one button Rift macro fires off your entire rotation in succession one after another with a single key press, it doesn't, it just fires off the first available ability within the macro line.
Youmu said:I am not saying to remove macro's. I am saying that I do not believe macro's will be necessary for things such as /assist, toggling AA/Ranged attack, Pet commands. As I think that they would make these into just seperate bind withing the keybindings menu instead of having to make a macro for them, what I see macros be for is things such as chat messages you need to "spam" or "/cast Heal on target [Liav]". Very specific use things instead of more general stuff.
//Voices of Terminus' Yoiumu Svartie
Sorry, I just dont see this at all.
I've usally got about 20-50 macro's that I rely on heavily. Yes, technically you could bind some of that to key-maps. But not all of it, not remotely. Even if they could those key bindings could never replicate the organization, let alone the multiple generations of gamer's whose muscle memory is all going to numbers. Hell, in the last 15 years I've gotten a pattern built that I use in every MMO I've played (in the dozens) and every one of those games supports my patterns.
- Shift 5 -- takes me to all my buffs/enchancement abilities
- Shift-4 -- takes me to my movement hotkey page and casts/activates my standard travel movement buff. It was Jboots (Shift-4, 4) in EQ, SoW on my Shaman, mount on WoW, etc, etc, etc. That page also has any other movement-related options like gates, portals, blinks.
- Shift-3 -- takes me to all my countermeasures to activate any hide,escapes,shields, ally protections.
- Shift-2 -- takes me to all my DoTs, and HoTs.
- Shift1 -- takes me to all my Melee skills and/or DD spells.
I realize I'm a cranky old man and set in my ways. But this grouping and organization is not at all unlike what I know with certainty is used by millions of players worldwide. Sometimes, "If it aint broke, dont fix it" is a mantra to live by. I wouldnt recommend that this be the only way, but it would be a crippling change to fail to support it, making the game feel more like Diablo than a robust and adaptable MMO.
Feyshtey said:There needs to be made a couple of distinctions that appear to be getting lost on most.
First, Backin I disagree with your comment that they sait things like /pause would not be used because that's a macro. I don't think that's what's been said by the devs at all. What has been said is that they will not allow 3rd party apps to automate gameplay or provide utility not specifically provided in the game engine. But they have said (and I'll look for the post) that there will be the ability to create in game macro's, giving them the abiliity to manage what will and will not be allowed. Kilsin has discussed how he has used in-game macro's heavily in the past, and thinks they are a wonderful way to help. He may not (officially) be a dev, but he certainly understands the intents of the devs.
Second, the number of actions you can have available to you for combat, and the number of hotkey slots that one might available for use are also two very different things. It is an entirely accurately statement to say that in EQ1 any magic user could only ever have 8 "abilities" queued up for use, in the form of the spells that fit in their mem slots. But they had 10 pages of hotkeys to work with for all those things that are not "abilities". Translating that kind of system to melee's or making every class limited to 10 slots within which they must prepare skills for a given encounter does not inherently negate the possibility of having many more hotkeys that allow for those queued abilities (and things not considered "abilities") to be utilizied in a myriad of streamlined ways. Not to mention that I doubt they would make you consume 1 of 10 vitally important ability keys for /assist, and another for /target maintank, or /follow, or 1000 other mundane commands.
I think we actually agree on a lot but are expressing it differently.
All those are examples of abilities and spells, not UI and mechanical elements that are common among all classes. And usually, MMO's in particular allows rebinding of keys, even to multiple keys, why would having a Assist Target dedicated bind(that could be rebound ofc) be worse and unimaginable compared to making a macro with it? These are not new or revolutionary things, holding down ALT key while casting a spell in WoW makes it cast on oneself (if able to), you don't need to make a macro for that anymore(something that was very common and probably why they made this option). The end product is the same but cleaner looking andm oire elegant.
Putting these things into the game options instead of macro's is the natural and imo prefferable option.
//Voices of Terminus' Yoiumu Svartie
Youmu said:All those are examples of abilities and spells, not UI and mechanical elements that are common among all classes. And usually, MMO's in particular allows rebinding of keys, even to multiple keys, why would having a Assist Target dedicated bind(that could be rebound ofc) be worse and unimaginable compared to making a macro with it? These are not new or revolutionary things, holding down ALT key while casting a spell in WoW makes it cast on oneself (if able to), you don't need to make a macro for that anymore(something that was very common and probably why they made this option). The end product is the same but cleaner looking andm oire elegant.
Putting these things into the game options instead of macro's is the natural and imo prefferable option.
//Voices of Terminus' Yoiumu Svartie
I gotta disagree with you on this. Having a /assist xyz is a great option and cannot be replicated by just binding to a key.
You would have to target using one keyboard then use another to assist. 2 key strokes needs for a rather simple action which is commonly used.
Even it was just /assist that could be added without a player name you could asign it to your hotbar whereever you like. Maybe in a different place depending on how vital it is to the class. More flexibility.
EDIT - A assist dedicated keybind can still exist, Just allow it to be unbound if we don't want that to be a dedicated bind. Free up the key to something else.
Youmu said:All those are examples of abilities and spells, not UI and mechanical elements that are common among all classes. And usually, MMO's in particular allows rebinding of keys, even to multiple keys, why would having a Assist Target dedicated bind(that could be rebound ofc) be worse and unimaginable compared to making a macro with it? These are not new or revolutionary things, holding down ALT key while casting a spell in WoW makes it cast on oneself (if able to), you don't need to make a macro for that anymore(something that was very common and probably why they made this option). The end product is the same but cleaner looking andm oire elegant.
Putting these things into the game options instead of macro's is the natural and imo prefferable option.
//Voices of Terminus' Yoiumu Svartie
While what you describe is entirely accurate and I believe should be fully supported. I use many keybindings also. What you're failing to see is that my method also allows an easily visualized and compartmentalized organization available to me even in-comabt, while yours relies on entering an options menu and scrolling thru the list of commands to find what you're after. Yours is cumbersome to set up and a steep learning curve to someone who has been doing the same things in the same ways for 15 years (more actually).
I use alt-1 thru 5 to cast the first five spells in my spellbar. But I use shift#-# to cast whatever I have in the next 3-5. I do this partly because I've made the concious organizational decision to make the slots 6-10 be whatever utility spells I like to have as failsafes but hope to not need in a regular rotation. It's awkward and uncomfortable to me to to try use alt-6 or higher because it removes my fingers from the WASD movement controls, Q/E/Z/C I have bound to other actions, and stretch to 6+. I could, I suppose, remap all those keys I want my fingers to remain on for other alt/ctrl/shift functions. But I prefer not to because if things are really going sideways a slip is more likely and a missed alt/shift/ctrl could produce a very unintended and catastrophic result. Whereas if I remove movement and immediate action keys to numbers I limit the exposure to those unintended consequences. This is also why I put everything I need quickly on reactions in the first 5 slots of the first 5 hotkey bars.
You're not wrong, and neither am I. But if I were to force you into my patterns you would be facing just as large a learning curve and frankly wholly unnatural and uncomfortable gameplay, as would I if you forced me to play with yours.
Liav said:Enitzu said:You say it hasn't ruined the game but it really has. Having the ability to add a pause allows for the building of a 1 button rotation ala Rift where you press 1 button and it fires off your entire rotation literally automating the game for you. This is why it is so easy to multi box huge numbers in EQ. If they do not allow a pause then you have to become more creative with the macro to use more than 1 ability from 1 key press.
@OP - You're blowing things out of proportion really. Most of what you talk about are usual changable keybinds in the options menu.
Lol. MacroQuest2 is what allows you to multibox huge numbers in EQ. Don't conflate MacroQuest2 with "macros".
Pause has existed in EQ since day 1, and it has been used almost exclusively for CH rotations. If Pause ruined EQ, then EQ was ruined the first 5 minutes it went live.
You're absolutely wrong. I don't mean that in a mean spirited way, I mean you are literally incorrect.
Don't assume I don't know what I mean or what I am talking about. MQ2 does allow for huge numbers but that does not mean it is the only way to do things. I 12 boxed mages using only ISboxer and macro's for months. Having a pause feature for Ch macros and things was always a good thing and imo that is what it was meant for. We, however, found ways to use it for a lot of other things.
I don't know how MQ2 works as I have never used it but I would assume it also uses those same macros to do what it does. Break the macros, break the program.
Enitzu said:Don't assume I don't know what I mean or what I am talking about. MQ2 does allow for huge numbers but that does not mean it is the only way to do things. I 12 boxed mages using only ISboxer and macro's for months. Having a pause feature for Ch macros and things was always a good thing and imo that is what it was meant for. We, however, found ways to use it for a lot of other things.
I don't know how MQ2 works as I have never used it but I would assume it also uses those same macros to do what it does. Break the macros, break the program.
Your assumption is incorrect with regards to MQ2.
That said, controlling 12 Mages through ISBoxer doesn't require the use of macros. It may very well simplify things, but it isn't a requirement.
The term macro has been so diluted at this point that I don't even think it's worth arguing about. Too much focus on the baggage that these terms carry as opposed to the mechanics. If you want to argue for the removal of "pause" as a command, be my guest. Other than that, I disagree.
Backin said:Youmu said:All those are examples of abilities and spells, not UI and mechanical elements that are common among all classes. And usually, MMO's in particular allows rebinding of keys, even to multiple keys, why would having a Assist Target dedicated bind(that could be rebound ofc) be worse and unimaginable compared to making a macro with it? These are not new or revolutionary things, holding down ALT key while casting a spell in WoW makes it cast on oneself (if able to), you don't need to make a macro for that anymore(something that was very common and probably why they made this option). The end product is the same but cleaner looking andm oire elegant.
Putting these things into the game options instead of macro's is the natural and imo prefferable option.
//Voices of Terminus' Yoiumu Svartie
I gotta disagree with you on this. Having a /assist xyz is a great option and cannot be replicated by just binding to a key.
You would have to target using one keyboard then use another to assist. 2 key strokes needs for a rather simple action which is commonly used.
Even it was just /assist that could be added without a player name you could asign it to your hotbar whereever you like. Maybe in a different place depending on how vital it is to the class. More flexibility.
EDIT - A assist dedicated keybind can still exist, Just allow it to be unbound if we don't want that to be a dedicated bind. Free up the key to something else.
It all depends on how they handle it. As a DPS you would rarely have the need for a Defensive target. So what if the keybind is set to assist your defensive target? Then you just need to set that beforehand and use the 1 key press voiding the need for the macro altogether. Like I said it just all depends on how they decide to handle things. We will have our chances to suggest changes/additions once we are in game for alpha/beta
Reht said:Yeah, i love how people confuse isboxer and MQ quite frequently.
No one is conflating the two that I've seen in this thread.
Liav said:Enitzu said:Don't assume I don't know what I mean or what I am talking about. MQ2 does allow for huge numbers but that does not mean it is the only way to do things. I 12 boxed mages using only ISboxer and macro's for months. Having a pause feature for Ch macros and things was always a good thing and imo that is what it was meant for. We, however, found ways to use it for a lot of other things.
I don't know how MQ2 works as I have never used it but I would assume it also uses those same macros to do what it does. Break the macros, break the program.
Your assumption is incorrect with regards to MQ2.
That said, controlling 12 Mages through ISBoxer doesn't require the use of macros. It may very well simplify things, but it isn't a requirement.
The term macro has been so diluted at this point that I don't even think it's worth arguing about. Too much focus on the baggage that these terms carry as opposed to the mechanics. If you want to argue for the removal of "pause" as a command, be my guest. Other than that, I disagree.
You're right that it doesn't require the use of macros. However, when I can use macros to have those 12 run a 4 spell sequence with the touch of 1 button, macros do become a part of the equation.
So what exactly are you going for? You're obviously against programs such as MQ2 but want to keep macroing as it was in EQ?
Enitzu said:As a DPS you would rarely have the need for a Defensive target.
That's a somewhat short-sighted assumption. As DPS you might also be the off-tank. If your defensive target is the healer, and you see that the healer is taking damage, a simple /assist deftarget would lock you onto the offending mob attacking the healer instantly, rather than turning to identify the target and click thru the crowd potentially between you and it to peal off that healer agro. You could be a rogue DPS that has a sap that can provide a reasonably long stun to get the healer to safety. You could be a necro that can root the offender allowing the healer to step clear. You could be a shaman that could send his pet at the offender to keep it occupied for a moment till the offtank reacts.
I really hope that Pantheon is not such a shallow game that if you are DPS your job is limited to stabby stabby stabby till dead.