JDNight said:..This can be so demoralizing and flat out inconvenient for anyone who happens to have a job/family/pet/responsiblities. I spent to many nights during the velious period in which I lost most of a nights sleep so that I could avoid the loss of my gear. I just cannot do that now. I have responsibilities. Most people do.
You also had 7 real life days to get a corpse before it rotted. You didn't have to get it back right then.
Kilaen said:JDNight said:..This can be so demoralizing and flat out inconvenient for anyone who happens to have a job/family/pet/responsiblities. I spent to many nights during the velious period in which I lost most of a nights sleep so that I could avoid the loss of my gear. I just cannot do that now. I have responsibilities. Most people do.
You also had 7 real life days to get a corpse before it rotted. You didn't have to get it back right then.
Just an example: So you and some friends are going down into Chardok (EQ1 dungeon) and all wipe there at 1AM. You may or may not see these friends again this week as you all have busy schedules. Your guild is not well suited to corpse recovery. They can do it, but you would need to form up yet another group, and most players are not high enough level. Who knows if you can even do that this week? What then? The only real answer back in the day was... get some help (right now) and try to recover the corpses. 7 days isn't that long of a time. 30 days would be more helpful, but still could present significant problems.
Not everyone will be a memeber of a 148 person guild running raids maxxed out at level 60 in 3 months. In fact, if this is like EQ1, with slow leveling, most won't. At least I hope not.
I am curious as to what the EQ1 development team thought of corpse runs when they made them back in 1999. I wonder what there thoughts were on how many people would play their game, and for how long. I wonder if even a little more thought was put into it, if they couldn't come up with another death mechanic that was also quite harsh, but was less entrapping.
JDNight said:I am curious as to what the EQ1 development team thought of corpse runs when they made them back in 1999. I wonder what there thoughts were on how many people would play their game, and for how long. I wonder if even a little more thought was put into it, if they couldn't come up with another death mechanic that was also quite harsh, but was less entrapping.
Well fortunately, there's someone here that can answer that. *looks at Brad*
Harsh death penalty is of paramount importance. For those who haven't yet read the article on loss aversion by Wolfshead, I highly recommend it.
http://www.wolfsheadonline.com/the-death-penalty-mechanic-and-loss-aversion-in-mmo-design/
So I've said in the past that the death penalty will be somewhere in-between vanillia EQ and vanilla VG. So there will be a corpse. What is undecided is whether you just need to get to your corpse to lose less experience or whether it will have your items on it (and then is it all items or a subset?). And some other details.
The reason we've not made these decisions yet is that something like the severity of a death penalty needs to be determined during beta so we can tune it such that people respect the environment but aren't discouraged to explore and take risks. Something like this and the details of several other systems really require a decent population of people playing the game, listening to them, watching them, etc.
Aradune said:So I've said in the past that the death penalty will be somewhere in-between vanillia EQ and vanilla VG. So there will be a corpse. What is undecided is whether you just need to get to your corpse to lose less experience or whether it will have your items on it (and then is it all items or a subset?). And some other details.
Thanks for this. I think the most confusion (at least for me) is if you say it won't be like vanilla EQ, but you are considering even having all of your items be left on your corpse, would you just then somehow make it so that those items won't be permanently lost? In other words, you'd still have to keep a back-up set of gear in your bank for CR, but you won't ever have to worry about your main items disappearing if you don't get there in time. Otherwise, it sounds exactly like vanilla EQ... unless I'm forgetting something.
Bazgrim said:Aradune said:So I've said in the past that the death penalty will be somewhere in-between vanillia EQ and vanilla VG. So there will be a corpse. What is undecided is whether you just need to get to your corpse to lose less experience or whether it will have your items on it (and then is it all items or a subset?). And some other details.
Thanks for this. I think the most confusion (at least for me) is if you say it won't be like vanilla EQ, but you are considering even having all of your items be left on your corpse, would you just then somehow make it so that those items won't be permanently lost? In other words, you'd still have to keep a back-up set of gear in your bank for CR, but you won't ever have to worry about your main items disappearing if you don't get there in time. Otherwise, it sounds exactly like vanilla EQ... unless I'm forgetting something.
I'm glad that the idea of spawning with some, but not all, of your items is being considered. I would be fine with spawning with whatever I had in my hands, plus my jewelry. That would give me a chance to fight back to my corpse, but make it much harder along the way. It also dodges the issue of having to keep extra sets of gear for CR's, and the problems that may cause with local banking. I'm also not opposed to providing an option that carries a heavy penalty, beyond the normal loss of exp on death, if you want to summon your corpse/gear, and just go to bed for the night. Although, I feel like that last option should REALLY hurt and make you have to really think about it before going that route. I hope there is at least some gear on your corpse in Pantheon, so put my vote there! :)
Katalyzt said:Bazgrim said:Aradune said:So I've said in the past that the death penalty will be somewhere in-between vanillia EQ and vanilla VG. So there will be a corpse. What is undecided is whether you just need to get to your corpse to lose less experience or whether it will have your items on it (and then is it all items or a subset?). And some other details.
Thanks for this. I think the most confusion (at least for me) is if you say it won't be like vanilla EQ, but you are considering even having all of your items be left on your corpse, would you just then somehow make it so that those items won't be permanently lost? In other words, you'd still have to keep a back-up set of gear in your bank for CR, but you won't ever have to worry about your main items disappearing if you don't get there in time. Otherwise, it sounds exactly like vanilla EQ... unless I'm forgetting something.
I'm glad that the idea of spawning with some, but not all, of your items is being considered. I would be fine with spawning with whatever I had in my hands, plus my jewelry. That would give me a chance to fight back to my corpse, but make it much harder along the way. It also dodges the issue of having to keep extra sets of gear for CR's, and the problems that may cause with local banking. I'm also not opposed to providing an option that carries a heavy penalty, beyond the normal loss of exp on death, if you want to summon your corpse/gear, and just go to bed for the night. Although, I feel like that last option should REALLY hurt and make you have to really think about it before going that route. I hope there is at least some gear on your corpse in Pantheon, so put my vote there! :)
Good questions: No permanent corpse or item loss, regardless of what system we end up with -- i can say that for certain right now. (Unless it was on a special 'iron man' shard or something).
Bazgrim said:Aradune said:So I've said in the past that the death penalty will be somewhere in-between vanillia EQ and vanilla VG. So there will be a corpse. What is undecided is whether you just need to get to your corpse to lose less experience or whether it will have your items on it (and then is it all items or a subset?). And some other details.
Thanks for this. I think the most confusion (at least for me) is if you say it won't be like vanilla EQ, but you are considering even having all of your items be left on your corpse, would you just then somehow make it so that those items won't be permanently lost? In other words, you'd still have to keep a back-up set of gear in your bank for CR, but you won't ever have to worry about your main items disappearing if you don't get there in time. Otherwise, it sounds exactly like vanilla EQ... unless I'm forgetting something.
So I think I can help a bit with this @Bazgrim. And based on some of your other posts, I'm sure you know what I'm about to say.
At the launch of Vanguard, the death penalty mechanic (at least the earliest iterations of it) were similar to Everquest, in that when you died you dropped a corpse (tombstone). If you were able to recover it, you gained x% of the lost experience back and all of the gear on the corpse. There was the added caveat at launch (which was later changed) which allowed you to "soulbind" any item, which meant that a player who died would respawn with any soulbound items equipped (this did make it so any soulbound item could not be sold or traded to anyone but a vender). Therefore, the remaining items left on the corpse would be anything equipped that was not soulbound.
Now, the important distinction to make is that there was a built in failsafe which gave the player the ability to summon their corpse in the event it was in a place they could not recover it. At each altar (where the player would respawn after death) the player could interact with a box which allowed them, for a fee, to summon the corpse and loot all the gear on it, minus any soulbound items (which the player would have respawned with) and with no experience recovery. I believe that at one time there may have even been a feature which placed any items lost to a rotted corpse into "escrow" and a player could later return to an altar and recover those items for a fee (this part is a bit nebulous for me so I could be wrong).
So, to answer the question, I think Brad means that at the very least there will be a system which is both as harsh as Vanilla EQ (drop a corpse, lose xp, etc.) and allows the player an out in the event of a particularly troublesome corpse run, like at the launch of Vanguard.
I think it's very important that it be mandatory we retrieve our corpse to preserve the tension and risk aspect of gameplay. If we don't have to go back and get our stuff (at least some of it), it will directly impact the sense of danger which should accompany combat, as well as the sense of accomplishment that comes with success.
That may mean that only unequipped items remain on our corpse. I can see how that might being necessary, especially if we have to return to environments that would be too troublesome to endure without equipment. Either way, it's imperative that the time sink surrounding corpse retrieval be in place.
Dullahan said:Harsh death penalty is of paramount importance. For those who haven't yet read the article on loss aversion by Wolfshead, I highly recommend it.
http://www.wolfsheadonline.com/the-death-penalty-mechanic-and-loss-aversion-in-mmo-design/
Great article, thanks for the link.
I think a harsh death penalty is one of those "this is for your own good" things that needs to be in the game. Corpse runs? Yes. Back-up set of gear? Yes. Having to ask another guild to bail out your PoF raid and help you recover your corpses? Yes!
Dullahan said:I think it's very important that it be mandatory we retrieve our corpse to preserve the tension and risk aspect of gameplay. If we don't have to go back and get our stuff (at least some of it), it will directly impact the sense of danger which should accompany combat, as well as the sense of accomplishment that comes with success.
That may mean that only unequipped items remain on our corpse. I can see how that might being necessary, especially if we have to return to environments that would be too troublesome to endure without equipment. Either way, it's imperative that the time sink surrounding corpse retrieval be in place.
I hear you loud and clear. I would add that significant exp loss at death, most of which can be recovered when you return to your corpse, can be pretty compelling as well.
How about a death sytem like this? When you die, you go back to your bind(nexus) point. If you want to run back to your corpse to retrieve your items and recover partial xp loss, you can. Or you can have an option to click on the nexus stone to summon your corpse to you immediately with a price of course. This price can scale to the player's level. But by doing this nexus corpse summon option, your items will be retrieved but you loose all your XP.
When I started playing EQ, I was young and had a lot of free time. Now, I am working and have a family. Sometimes RL happens and I need to get away immediately. I don't have the luxury to sit and play and do CRs all day long like I use to. And I know there would be a lot of rage quits due wipes. IF that ever happens, a player can just choose the option to get their corpse back and quit away and call it day. Just my 2 cents.
Malzuran said:When I started playing EQ, I was young and had a lot of free time. Now, I am working and have a family. Sometimes RL happens and I need to get away immediately. I don't have the luxury to sit and play and do CRs all day long like I use to.
Ugh, I really dislike this argument. But I've responded to it many times in the past, quite fervently and I don't have the strength to do it again. For anyone interested in my response to this, it can be found part way down the link below.
www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/3645/biggest-challenge-for-a-modern-day-group-centric-mmo/view/page/2
Kilaen said:JDNight said:What then?
Find a necro, buy a coffin and summon the corpse to zoneline. There was always a way, even if it wasn't quite what you wanted. EQ1 made masochists out of us all, almost..
Since Brad confirmed that there will be no such thing as permanent gear loss in Pantheon there will be all the time in the world to get your corpse back. The only reason I like the idea of a super punitive summon corpse option is for people (like me) who work and have kids so they only have a few hours a night to play. Even if I wanted to try and recover my corpse, if my timing doesn't align right with the people I need to help me, I may not be able to play my character in an effort to progress for days on end. Ultimately, depending on the weekend, it could take 5-12 days, in the worst case scenario, until I have a chance to play my geared and capable character again. I'm in the camp for gear dropping on corpses and corpse runs, but I like the idea of an extremely punitive rip cord that can be pulled to make the game playable for people that are stuck. On top of that fail safe, last ditch mechanic being super punitive, I think it should also be on a 72-96 real time refresh. I know this is a really hard area to strike a balance in, so I don’t envy the position of the devs on this one.
Nikademis said:Malzuran said:When I started playing EQ, I was young and had a lot of free time. Now, I am working and have a family. Sometimes RL happens and I need to get away immediately. I don't have the luxury to sit and play and do CRs all day long like I use to.
Ugh, I really dislike this argument. But I've responded to it many times in the past, quite fervently and I don't have the strength to do it again. For anyone interested in my response to this, it can be found part way down the link below.
www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/3645/biggest-challenge-for-a-modern-day-group-centric-mmo/view/page/2
In regards to your take on this, remember, it's strictly that. You're totally allowed to feel the way you do, but it doesn't discount the real problem for the people that are in that boat, myself included. If I can't recover my corpse in the 2-3 hour window I have on any given weeknight, and that becomes a running issue, then VR, potentially, loses access to part of their target demographic.
That being said, Brad himself has come out and put himself in the “older gamer with a family category”, and stated they have that in mind while developing PROTF. So in that regard, I trust they will strike a reasonable balance.
I have little doubt that on the weekends when I go on a 10-14 hour gaming bender, than all bets are off for my corpse runs (looking forward to it), but that’s only realistic a few times a month. So people in my boat are hoping for a bail out option, even if it means we pay a crazy steep penalty, to recover our corpse in the hope that when we log into the game the next time we can, we’re able to get some meaningful game time accomplished. So, I’m for a harsh death penalty, and I support corpse runs for your (full/partial) gear, but I just hope, like I stated in my other post, that there is a last resort with a major penalty on a long timer that I can choose to accept/endure to allow should I become stuck. I know there are people that don’t like this idea, but if this option is so harsh that it makes it a hard decision, and has a long re-use timer, then I think there is room for compromise.
I see more opportunity for social bonding here. Create a second tier to corpse dragging, players could flag themselves as needing retrieval/rez then log off, their friends/guild could then drag them across zone lines and pre-rez for their next login. Also allow players to pre-opt into this system, guild officers/friends would gain these CR permissions automatically after 3 days.
Nikademis said:Malzuran said:When I started playing EQ, I was young and had a lot of free time. Now, I am working and have a family. Sometimes RL happens and I need to get away immediately. I don't have the luxury to sit and play and do CRs all day long like I use to.
Ugh, I really dislike this argument. But I've responded to it many times in the past, quite fervently and I don't have the strength to do it again. For anyone interested in my response to this, it can be found part way down the link below.
www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/3645/biggest-challenge-for-a-modern-day-group-centric-mmo/view/page/2
Nikademis,
I am just stating a fact that is my current situation. But by you saying that this game shouldn't be for anyone who has less time to play. So are you saying you this game should be prejudice against anyone who doesn't have have "5" or "10" hours to play per sitting let's say. I like the difficulty of vanilla EQ. If you are a person who can spend tons and tons of hours a day at this, kudos to you. But for someone who can't, then give them an option that's all. But of course by choosing that option, you will be penealized by the XP loss. That's all. You can still have the fun of old EQ but with a slight twist. Not an exact cookie cutter of the old EQ.
I'm in the camp of no longer having the time for really long corpse runs, but definitely want death to sting again. If I never see another group zerg a named mob again because it means nothing if they wipe, it will be to soon. But I also have no desire on a Wednesday night, fall into "The Hole" esk type dungeon and have to spend the next eight hours I should be sleeping, doing a corpse run. Like everything, theres a balance and this thread has some really good ideas.
I really like the idea of having to go back to my corpse to retrieve my inventory items and a percentage of lost exp, while spawning with all my worn gear on after death. At least then I can go to bed and know tomorrow I can log in and choose to either go hunt my corpse down, or leave it for another time and do something else with my time. Over all I would like incentive to go back to my corpse (if we level as slowly as we did in the early years of EQ1, exp loss alone will be enough to make me at least attempt to retrieve my corpse), but I don't really want a system that could lead to days of wasted game time, if I happen to die during the week.
Humperding said:2) If its impossible for you to get to your corpse (or you just can not find help) you can go to a specialized NPC (or maybe even a PC necromancer) to get your corpse summoned to you. That comes with another xp loss and/or some item degradation that is noticable and not easily shrugged off. So if you are desparate there is always a way to get your stuff back.
I really like this idea, maybe instead of the cemeteries that your corpse would pop up in after a while in EQ Planes of Power expantion, after a set amount of time a Necromancer NPC could summon your corpse for a fee and an exp loss, even if its just not getting back the exp you lost when you died.
Amsai said: Any comment on deleveling? Alternately to make death and xp loss matter at max level without needing deleveling maybe you could have a bonus applied for maintaining a significant buffer of XP. But maybe that would be dumb
I don't think that is dumb at all. Towards the end of my EQ1 career I spent most of my online time raiding, as a Wizard, I died a lot. More then once I wished we could of banked an additional level of exp or something. It was really easy on new content to wipe enough that you ended up de-leveling during a raid, which sucked royaly. I don't have an issue with de-leveling, kind of like the idea, but I would like a better means to midigating the loss, at max level.
Aradune said:I hear you loud and clear. I would add that significant exp loss at death, most of which can be recovered when you return to your corpse, can be pretty compelling as well.
I don't think much, if any, of your experience should be restored by simply returning to your corpse (ala Vanguard). I think that would be a missed opportunity to rely on other players, which was so much of what made EQ an amazing experience. I know it's hard to not succomb to the trends that allow self-sufficiency, but those really were the things that made players appreciate one another and provided the opportunities that ultimately brought people together.
Personally, I think normal resurrection spells should restore around 50%, and anything higher should require reagents.
Amsai said: @Aradune No corpse or item loss? Sign me up. As long as that isn't a thing corpse runs for gear and/or experience sounds good. But I too think significant experience loss could be fine by itself, but only if you can delevel. Any comment on deleveling? Alternately to make death and xp loss matter at max level without needing deleveling maybe you could have a bonus applied for maintaining a significant buffer of XP. But maybe that would be dumb
I'm all in for deleveling. I had not even questioned if it would be in or not until now, I just assumed it would be. Now I'm curious!
Katalyzt said:Amsai said: @Aradune No corpse or item loss? Sign me up. As long as that isn't a thing corpse runs for gear and/or experience sounds good. But I too think significant experience loss could be fine by itself, but only if you can delevel. Any comment on deleveling? Alternately to make death and xp loss matter at max level without needing deleveling maybe you could have a bonus applied for maintaining a significant buffer of XP. But maybe that would be dumbI'm all in for deleveling. I had not even questioned if it would be in or not until now, I just assumed it would be. Now I'm curious!
According to the FAQ, there will not be a loss of levels.