Hello everyone!
Having just found out about this game, I feel there are a TON of supporters like me who are still in the dark. I have and will continue to tell many friends.
So I would assume there are a lot of interested players that were original EQ members like me, having played for 9 years. With that being the case, I thought it would be fun to rank 1-10 (10 highest) & comment on the following features and how important it should be to Pantheon:
(Here are my key features I wanted to rate / discuss)
Death Penalty: 8
Death should mean something and cost something. Was thinking progressive deaths in a time frame, where each one caused more severity. i.e. first one - small exp but spawn fairly close, second- exp / gear and spawn further out etc.. This way if you die over something stupid you won't get penalized, but if you are trying over and over it will cost you to risk it. This is a hard one to figure out...
Nighttime Darkness: 9
I still remember the intimidation of nighttime in original EQ. I think a BIG part of the immersion is risking things based on time of day. You can quest or buy torches etc. to help the lighting, but maybe gradually build nightvision as you level higher. It should remain fairly dark imo
Corpse Dragging / Looting: 8
I still like the fact that you had to work your way back to your corpse in EQ. This is a part of the death meaning something conversation. However, losing gear should not be an option. You would not lose as much exp if someone were to rez your corpse and you would not be able to progress anything until you possess your corpse again. There could be a timer that would set it at dungeon entrance if situation is grim. Lots to discuss here...
Auctioning items: 9
Who could forget the famous tunnels of East Commonlands. I enjoyed that again when I revisited EQ progression server. I like the idea of having market areas where you have to be present to see the market spam in order to make a deal. I do not think it should be broadcast everywhere else in the game. Part of the immersion is feeling like you should be somewhere for a good reason. This helps social environment as well and cuts down gold farming.
Cosmetic Gear Slots: 9
I am a fan of allowing appearance gear to be slotted only consmetically over actual stat gear BUT it must be obtained somehwere out in the world, NOT with an online store purchase. So in other words, you really like the look of a bracer you obtained in a level 2 dungeon but got an upgrade on a level 5 item that looks worse, you could slot your level 2 item cosmetically until you like something else later. Love this option if it is earned...
Rare Mobs and Placeholders: 10
I LOVE the fact that an area has to be worked for a chance to spawn a rare mob for special gear or quests. I cannot stand knowing the rare mob will spawn in an exact location every 5 minutes. One of the great things about EQ was never knowing what you could get wandering around, that adds to immersion.
NPC Assistance / Aggro Range: 9
I loved how in EQ you risked everything by pulling too many NPCs at once. I think it was severe in EQ however, but I would still like an environment where too many equals a hairy situation or possible death. This opens the door for CC classes again which completely went away in most modern MMOs
Travel to Locations: 9
Again, I do not want fast travel in the game unless you have made it by foot first to key locations. Traveling by boat, foot, mount first should allow you the rights to cover greater distances later.
Map View and Fog of War: 10
I do not think a player should be able to see the lay of the land until they have crossed it. This improves social interaction and immersion. One idea would be to obtain rare map scrolls that would highlight a portion of a zone ahead of time if you came across one. These could be traded or sold as well. Other ideas?
Experience and Leveling: 10
Yeah this should take a bit of time. If you are playing a game for fun, having a blast with groups or your friends, why worry about whether or not you can hit max level in a few weeks. Do not confuse grind with time invested. You COULD grind if you wanted to work an area of a zone, some players love that. But, there should be enough to do to keep you busy and not always looking at the exp bar. BUT this should be a rate that takes a bit of investment to progress. Can't stand making 10 levels in a day or more in modern MMOs.
Interactive Water Environment: 10
I know this is already in place, but I love a world where you can explore under water and have risks. This is a big sub world opportunity that adds to immersion. Nothing better than finding a way to a hidden oasis because you explored an underwater cave and found a hidden entrance.
Online Store Bought Items: 1
I am not a big supporter of being able to buy everything in an online store. To me, this takes away from the immersion of the game. It kind of reminds you that you are in a made up world. I would like to see everything offered only by means of being in game and earned or collected somehow, even if it means paying an extra monthly subscription. If the game is GOOD, I will support at all costs.
Food / Drink to Survive: 7
It makes sense... Maybe have an option to eat off the land as you go and drink water as you see it. I do like the idea that you need to plan for this rather than be able to survive automatically. What do you think, should you have to have food and drink?
Epic Quests: 10
I LOVE these type of quests that equal something major in the end. It should not always have to be a RAID to get hard pieces but perhaps a lot of group activity. They should require a lot of steps, combining, rare pieces, semi-rare pieces, etc. to see it through completion. I think this is a big part of what is missing these days. Keep in mind, this does not have to be just weapons. It could equal all kinds of useful stuff that you have to work over time to obtain.
Dungeons - Instance / Public / or Both: 8
Well I am a fan of both so hear me out... Obviously you should have dungeons where players can come and go and fight over same resources. I think a solution to rare mobs would be to have them be able to spawn in a "general" location that is large enough for someone not to be able to call "camp". This way everyone has a chance.
I do, however, like certain instance dungeons that you and your group can take their time and clear out how they desire. Some like to plan and go slower than others. If you die, you come back and start where you were with no mob respawns. This really really helps you feel progression and is less grindy. Once it is cleared, it will reset for you after so much time etc...
What else did I miss? Please feel free to add it at the end of your comments!
Pyye-
If anyone remembers the early days of VG. If you attack a undead or vampire mob. You get a buff during night time (lil run speed buff i think), and loose it during the day. What was that buff called again??? I rember SOE removing it from game after a while. But would love too see this concept back but well balanced.
KCRiley said:You know what I miss from EQ that I haven't seen in any MMO since, except Cryptic games for some reason? It's really simple.
Character bios.
Right? Where did they go!
In EQ2 you could write a little about yourself or something random in a box and anyone that inspected you could see it. Was something i liked.
A little known feature in EQ was the in game message boards they were located in Qeynos and High Hold. I would love to see that implemented in a game once more.
Here is a picture of the one in Qeynos, it was functional. I do not know when they disabled them or the reason why, or when it happened.
Here's my list of features I'm really hoping to see in Pantheon:
EDIT: Just realized most of my list is features I DON'T want to see haha. I guess I'm hoping Pantheon delivers on it's promise to be a game that brings back many of the roots that made the MMO genre great. My personal opinion are that many of the 'inovations' and 'quality of life' features that have been added and are now standard in the genre have actually deluted / lessened the experience.
No 'GPS' or 'YOU ARE HERE' Indicators on Maps
I'm perfectly ok with sparsely detailed in-game maps. I'd actually like it if zone maps were rare drops from certain mobs in each zone. Or if maps were something you had to draw up yourself as you explored. I do not want any GPS, or indicator of where you are on the map. The only MMO I've played in this manner was classic EQ and it forced me to actually pay attention to the environment and learn the zones. 'Exploration' in every MMO since has consisted of me hitting the 'M' key and following a dot on the map. It completely ruins the immersion and feeling of exploration to me.
No Flight Paths
The only form of fast travel I want is class casted ports and buffs, or possibly clicky items. Flight paths (or multiple flight paths) in each zone makes the world feel exponetially smaller than it really is, and again completely ruins immersion. I suppose I'd be ok with mounts that increase travel speed, but I'd rather have to rely on class specic speed buffs such as SoW.
Corpse Runs
I really hope Pantheon mimics the EQ death system almost exactly. It was harsh, but that's what made it great. Exploring deep into a dungeon, or running across the world actually carried consequences. Those consequences made trivial, mundane tasks exciting as a misstep could set you back at any time. This greatly increased immersion.
No Auction House / Bazaar
Let the players establish a meeting place for auctioning / selling items and gear organically. One of the coolest aspects of classic EQ to me was how the ECL tunnel became the game's central trading hub organically by the players. This organic system forced player interaction instead of using some artificial tool.
No Mob Leashing or Resetting
If you aggro a mob, it should literally chase you until something else takes aggro from it, or it dies. This again was one of the best features of EQ that I have not come across in any other MMO. It was another aspect of what made the world feel dangerous at all times and was an important aspect in what made the game so magical and great.
What an amazing post. You really hit the nail on the head with the summary of what makes a game FUN. If I may piggy back a bit I especially agree with the concept of "the store bought philosophy kind of reminds you that you are in a made up world". The entire immersive experience is what makes MMO's fun, I don't even remember being in a "game" while being logged into EQ but rather a world that was experienced through my character, a sort of umbillical connection to the avatar.
Im looking forward to experiencing what pantheon has to offer and I hope they can adhere to the core tenants you so elegantly mentioned.
JudgeFudge said: I agree with all points by sniggz except the agro leash point. Does this game even have zones? If I run by accidently agro say three mobs trying to get to a group do I have to run for hours to get back to town. Make the mob give up after a while or it might get a little ridiculous.
I remember reading there will be zones, but some of them will be quite large. I can't imagine any of them would take hours to run through though.... Or even more than a few minutes really.
JudgeFudge said: I agree with all points by sniggz except the agro leash point. Does this game even have zones? If I run by accidently agro say three mobs trying to get to a group do I have to run for hours to get back to town. Make the mob give up after a while or it might get a little ridiculous.
It has to be that way so certain classes can do their thing, split, control, and provide safe numbers for your group. Remember you most likely will not be soloing. Individual mob AI is one of the best features of EQ that is not commom in most other games. The ability to work an area with control or face death is a great thing!
I do think it's weird to be basically hoping for bad AI. :P I know the point is that it can be fun, though.
What if it depends on the type of mob? Continuing to chase after someone 5x faster who you haven't seen in a week sounds like good undead behavior, right?
I have no problems being able to zone agro if that's available. My point was this is suppose to be a hardcore game, but don't make it insano hard, E.G. you accidentally agro a dragon and run it to the town to dump agro and it tears up the town. Or you can never escape a mob that's two levels higher than you because this game is based on group dynamics. If the whole game is based on group dynamics and you accidentally agro while traveling to a group, you will have problems. Since fast travel has been ruled out for the majority, which I agree with.
Mobs with no leashing... YES. You agro it, you own it. This really encourages caution when traveling, the need to use invis or invis vs undead, or to seek these buffs from the playerbase should you not have them.
Lets look at the inverse of this for perspective. In modern MMO's with a leashing system, running through a pack of mobs because "they leash, no big deal" is pretty lame. We've all done this or seen others do this. This all boils down to fear, which forces players to consider their actions or end up dead. The game world should not be forgiving and should command respect from the players. EQ1 nailed this. Once you agro mobs, you HAVE to deal with them or zone. They are like Liam Neeson in Taken. You can run, you can hide, but they will find you and they will kill you. #fear
Good list Pyye - and I'd agree outside the instancing.
I'll add a few as well that I've mentioned in other threads:
1. Meaningful Factions/Races: 10/10. Make choosing an evil race matter.
2. Inventory Management - Coin Weight/Encumberance: 8/10. Again, make choosing race matter - i.e. having evil races having a more difficult time selling than humans, making encumberance matter, etc.
3. GM Events/GM-Surname Grants: 7/10: Self-Explanatory - surnames became almost a mini-event/right of passage.
4. Strict Naming Policy: 9/10: No Creamofsumyunggui
5. Attackable NPCs: 7/10. Made it more real and I had a few deaths from the "A" button.
6. CHA affecting prices: 7/10. Another feature that made race/class choice matter. Back before plat infation, I always wanted to sell with my crude stein - +15 cha!
7. Wide level range of mobs within zone: 10/10. Griffin and decaying skeleton in same zone - added to the danger. Self-explanatory.
8. Res Effects: 7/10. There should be a punishment for being brought back from the dead.
9. Unique Spells/Skills: 9/10. Make Shock of Lightning and Lightning Bolt rather than Lightning I, II, III etc.
10. Appropriate environmental sounds/music: 10/10. Dry Bone Skeleton Cackle!
11. Twinking (but controlled through skill scaling - see other threads): 8/10
12. Limited Bind Spots and bind spells being restricted to casting classes (Casters anywhere/Melees in cities): 8/10. Make class choice matter while adding to player interdependence.
13. Non-Linear Progression: 10/10. Multiple options for leveling paths and multiple zones within level ranges. Adds to replayability as I can experience other zones with alts.
Aethor said:I agree with most of the stuff, but no instances please.
Make big, convoluted, public dungeons, where everybody will come. Dungeons large enough for at least 4-5 groups in the same zone at the same time.
You are naive if you think that having everything open and contested will work in today's market. You need some instanced content or else your MMO is going to wither on the vine. You'll just end up with a handful guilds locking everyone else out of everything worth a damn. Maybe that worked 15 years ago when there weren't any other viable alternatives, but people these days don't have hours to spare, in the hopes that something spawns and their guild has enough people online to go take a pull. Don't get me wrong, I like open dungeons and contested mobs, but going 100% one way of the other is, to be frank, and incredibly dumb idea. Personally, I think EQ2 got the balance more or less right.
itvar said:Aethor said:I agree with most of the stuff, but no instances please.
Make big, convoluted, public dungeons, where everybody will come. Dungeons large enough for at least 4-5 groups in the same zone at the same time.
You are naive if you think that having everything open and contested will work in today's market. You need some instanced content or else your MMO is going to wither on the vine. You'll just end up with a handful guilds locking everyone else out of everything worth a damn. Maybe that worked 15 years ago when there weren't any other viable alternatives, but people these days don't have hours to spare, in the hopes that something spawns and their guild has enough people online to go take a pull. Don't get me wrong, I like open dungeons and contested mobs, but going 100% one way of the other is, to be frank, and incredibly dumb idea. Personally, I think EQ2 got the balance more or less right.
And here the argument is again. I don't have enough "time" so make the game easier, more accessible, and cater to all. It is not dumb or naive to not want instancing. It is wanting to create a better game world - which it appears you haven't played an MMO without any instancing based on your comment. Again, what worked 15 years ago can work today (hate that argument), and the "I don't have enough time" argument just isn't valid. It's your expectation that since you only have 2-3 hours that you deserve the gear that the person who plays 12+ hours a day deserves that does. You eventually could get that gear, you just may not be a server first or may not even get the gear in that expansion. And, I also fall squarely into the 2-3 hour window, so it's not just me preaching as I have to change my expecations as well, but I don't want game to cater to me at the expense of others experiences and the overall game experience.
And, before you call people out for being naive for not wanting instancing, you may want to check out the FAQ as well:
http://www.pantheonmmo.com/game/faqs/#q34
Here are the two relevant questions from the FAQ:
Pantheon will support instancing to a limited degree, using it primarily for storytelling in a linear fashion, perhaps at the end of an epic quest. The vast majority of content, however, will exist in non-instanced shared zones.
Overcrowding and too much competition are indeed problems that have plagued both MMOs with and without instancing. If there are not enough players around, it can be hard to group and socialize. But if there are too many people around, the world feels crowded and people have to wait for encounters or spawns, or even compete for them. Our answer to this issue is twofold: first, primarily during the later phases of beta, we will determine how many people online at one time in our game world feels right -- neither under crowded nor overcrowded. Second, if and when a server’s/shard’s population grows too large, we will launch a new shard with incentives for players to spread out. And with our harnessing of cloud hosted servers/shards, this is actually something we can do dynamically, easily, and quickly.
itvar said:You are naive if you think that having everything open and contested will work in today's market. You need some instanced content or else your MMO is going to wither on the vine. You'll just end up with a handful guilds locking everyone else out of everything worth a damn. Maybe that worked 15 years ago when there weren't any other viable alternatives, but people these days don't have hours to spare, in the hopes that something spawns and their guild has enough people online to go take a pull. Don't get me wrong, I like open dungeons and contested mobs, but going 100% one way of the other is, to be frank, and incredibly dumb idea. Personally, I think EQ2 got the balance more or less right.
It isn't naive at all. Today's market has a rather large and growing segment of players who want a much harder challenge, both mechanically from the game and socially from the playerbase. Most of the people on this forum are from that population.
VR has already said there will be limited instancing, sadly enough, but given the overall feeling and sentiment of both devs and fans of P:RotF thus far, I don't figure it to be more than is absolutely necessary for specifc things.
And the hours to spare thing is nonsense that has been covered by too many people too many times. MMORPGs are not designed for the "get your reward every 15 minutes" crowd, not even WoW. A community driven, group centric game will ask more of its playerbase than 5 minutes in the raid finder queue and 30 minutes of button pushing while not standing in fire. What will will wither on the vine is not the game that dares to be different than WoW, but another clone trying desperately to be WoW and failing at it.
Want to fail at MMOs? Easy, make a WoW clone with less money than they take in per week. Too bad, so sad, you lose. Instancing and mechanics to placate the "I only have limited time, design around me" crowd will invariably create a WoW clone that will die the same death they all do.
No no, 100% open world will work just fine.
I've very much enjoyed reading this forum, it brings back so many memories.
Pyyes post is excellent, I agree with it all: except I really hope for 100% open world. No instances. They are not necessary, EQ proved that for many year. Also, I think the player run market is a particularly good argument for a decent player run economy. Going to the CL tunnel and bargining was a wonderfully immersive part of the world for many of us.
Dekadeds post on leasing is on the spot. Being forced to deal with the consequences when you aggro'd a mob was also part of the immersion. Nothing like getting chased clear across a Karrana by one of the very aggressive lions, or nasty hairy spiders, would definetly give you a thrill if you out-raced them that is.
Judgfudge: I remember the message board in Qeynos very well. The HHP board, not so much: none of my atavars were particularly welcome there.
Raidan: Yes to weight control, I lremember my DE SK could barely wear chain- the set weighted apprx. 65 lbs, and I could only carry 76 lbs. Something in that area, it's been a long time. Yes, I agree there should be rez penalty, limited bind spots and balance those who can bind vs those who can 'taxi' players. Also, I'm a huge fan of faction counting: if you chose a Tier'Dal in EQ, faction was easy, you were hated by everyone and welcome nowhere. DE had their city, and the catacombs under FP. With a bit of work there were places in the Ogre, Troll, and Iskar communities you may be allowed -but never turn your back on them.
I miss EQ when I read these. I am really looking forward to the alpha, and hope I make it in. Regardless, I am awaiting launch.
Venjenz said:itvar said:You are naive if you think that having everything open and contested will work in today's market. You need some instanced content or else your MMO is going to wither on the vine. You'll just end up with a handful guilds locking everyone else out of everything worth a damn. Maybe that worked 15 years ago when there weren't any other viable alternatives, but people these days don't have hours to spare, in the hopes that something spawns and their guild has enough people online to go take a pull. Don't get me wrong, I like open dungeons and contested mobs, but going 100% one way of the other is, to be frank, and incredibly dumb idea. Personally, I think EQ2 got the balance more or less right.
It isn't naive at all. Today's market has a rather large and growing segment of players who want a much harder challenge, both mechanically from the game and socially from the playerbase. Most of the people on this forum are from that population.
VR has already said there will be limited instancing, sadly enough, but given the overall feeling and sentiment of both devs and fans of P:RotF thus far, I don't figure it to be more than is absolutely necessary for specifc things.
And the hours to spare thing is nonsense that has been covered by too many people too many times. MMORPGs are not designed for the "get your reward every 15 minutes" crowd, not even WoW. A community driven, group centric game will ask more of its playerbase than 5 minutes in the raid finder queue and 30 minutes of button pushing while not standing in fire. What will will wither on the vine is not the game that dares to be different than WoW, but another clone trying desperately to be WoW and failing at it.
Want to fail at MMOs? Easy, make a WoW clone with less money than they take in per week. Too bad, so sad, you lose. Instancing and mechanics to placate the "I only have limited time, design around me" crowd will invariably create a WoW clone that will die the same death they all do.
No no, 100% open world will work just fine.
couldn't have said it better myself :)