Forums » Pantheon Classes

The trinity, damage classes, and other ramblings

    • 110 posts
    March 26, 2015 5:11 PM PDT

    Hello everyone, I'd like to take a moment to discuss my thoughts on the trinity (tank, damage, healer) with a focus on the damage classes and how I feel all of this should relate to Pantheon. This is probably going to be a little long so please bear with me.

     

    First and foremost I'd like to say that I'm looking forward to Pantheon. I believe that the RPG has been taken out of MMORPGs and I have been waiting for a return to form for several years now. I also believe that Pantheon will be that return to form.

     

    Before we can get to what I really want to focus on we need to discuss what has become known as the holy trinity of MMOs. For those of you who are unaware, this is the Tank – Damage – Healer group structure. The tank takes the damage, providing the durability that a group needs to be successful while the healer(s) provide combat healing and regeneration, further ensuring that the tank stays alive through the fight. If either of these two roles are removed from a group then the group will either be unable to complete content or will be so inefficient at completing content that it would most likely be quicker to find others to play with. The third role is a bit different from the other two roles – damage. The damage classes provide additional damage to the group, so that content can be cleared more efficiently. This is fundamentally different from what tanks and healers provide to their groups because without a tank or a healer the group grinds to a halt, but with out any damage classes content is simply slower. It is my belief that this is a problem that has existed in MMORPS since the system was created.

     

    It is important to understand that every class adds damage to the group, and as such I believe that in Pantheon more focus should be put on what tanks and healers don't bring to the group: utility. To this end I would use damage to make up the difference in how classes balance out in Tanking vs. Healing vs. Utility. This would have the consequence of giving us a new trinity: Tanking – Healing – Utility.

     

    With that said I'd like to look at the tanks and damage classes and discuss what these changes would look like. It is my belief that the caster classes are more or less already being balanced around this structure based on their concepts and how they played in EQ and for the sake of brevity I'll omit them from this discussion.

     

    Warriors – It is my belief that warriors in Pantheon should be one of the higher damage classes. I do not mean to say that a warrior should not be a tank, but rather that because a warrior brings nothing more to a group than anger and meat he should be compensated for his lack of utility with an increase in damage per second over the other tanking classes if not up to the level of what were the former damage classes. That said a warrior should really feel his lack of utility the same way a rogue or wizard should feel his lack of tanking. This could manifest itself in the form of locked chests or doors being common, or buffs and weapon additives (i.e. poisons) being stronger that in most other games of this genre. Perhaps hidden traps are a constant threat. The possibilities here are endless.

     

    Rogues – I'm going to start by saying that I love rogues, because I fear what I'm about to say will seem like blasphemy by the majority of people who main rogues. I do not think that rogues should be a high damage class. I feel that their damage should be the lowest of the utility classes and probably lower than that of a warrior. Rogues offer too much potential for utility in the form of scouting, disarming and finding traps, setting up ambushes for NPCs, opening locked doors, making poisons, and unlocking chests for rogues to have a consistently high damage. That said, and execute or assassinate mechanic that worked to kill off or help kill off low health NPCs would be really nice. I also have no problem with sneak attacks to give the rogue a temporary boost to his damage, but I do not think that these should be spamable.

     

    Rangers – The bad joke of EQ. Rangers would probably be the hardest class to balance under the tanking – healing – utility system because depending on how the class is handled they either offer almost as much utility as a rogue or almost none at all. First and foremost I think that rangers shouldn't have much if anything in the way of druid spells, but rather should be all about combat versatility. This would manifest itself as being able to do some of the things a rogue can do like scouting and setting up ambushes and traps, along with some more unique things like tracking enemies and foraging food and ingredients for poisons and curatives. Depending on how available their foraging and tracking skills are (outdoor only, outdoor and dungeon, everywhere), how useful tracking and tailing specific NPCs is, how useful poisons and curative items are, and how effective scouting and ambushing is Rangers could be justified in being the highest damage class or as little as a rogue. Rangers should also be able to use a wide variety of weapons. None of that bows only junk that was popular a couple of years ago.

     

    Monks – The monk is master of martial arts and spirituality, able to focus his ki into both devastating attacks and healing energies. There's very little for me to write about monks. They have a small amount of utility in the form of feign death and a self heal on a timer (at least in EQ). This gives them the ability to pull better than any other class in EQ, but otherwise they have no real utility to speak of. This being the case I would nominate monks as the highest melee focused damage dealer.

     

    Dread Lords – The unholy warrior. The dread lord is a tank that augments his survivability with necromantic prowess. Adding life-taps, buffs, and potentially an undead minion to a warrior's repertoire and therefore should have lower damage and/or tanking than a similarly geared warrior.

     

    Crusaders – The holy knight. The crusader is a tank that augments his survivability with holy favor. Because a crusader would likely combine the buffing and healing of a cleric with the defenses of the warrior the crusader, much like the dread lord, should have lower damage and/or tanking than a similarly geared warrior.

     

    I really hope dwarves aren't blue (or at least aren't as blue as they are in the concept art) they're one of my two favorite races and I was always bothered by the Coldain dwarves being bright blue.

     

    I think enchanters need a new name. Enchantment is no longer used to refer to spells cast on a person to affect how they act and is now almost exclusively used to refer to spells cast on equipment.

     

    Can we call wizards Evokers and summoners Conjurers and just use the generic term wizard to refer to anyone who practices magic of any sort? It's so much easier that way.

     

    Please don't make halflings fat and ugly. I know hobbits were written as being somewhat rotund on average by Tolkien but that doesn't mean we have to have fat, middle aged looking halflings in Pantheon.

     

    Thanks for reading to the end. This has been some stuff that's been on my mind recently and with Pantheon being my best chance for the MMORPG I've been waiting my life for, I feel that I'd be doing myself a disservice if I didn't speak up, even if the community at large completely disagrees with everything I have to say.

     

    • 278 posts
    March 26, 2015 5:43 PM PDT
    "Please don't make halflings fat and ugly. I know hobbits were written as being somewhat rotund on average by Tolkien but that doesn't mean we have to have fat, middle aged looking halflings in Pantheon."

    Fear not.
    • 426 posts
    March 26, 2015 5:51 PM PDT
    Gurt said:

     

     

     

    I really hope dwarves aren't blue (or at least aren't as blue as they are in the concept art) they're one of my two favorite races and I was always bothered by the Coldain dwarves being bright blue.

     

     

    +1,  I support this, My cleric or Paladin ( depending on the Game ) are always a dwarf and I don't mind the Blue but hope the shade and brightness of it gets kept under control.

     


    This post was edited by Zandil at March 26, 2015 6:16 PM PDT
    • 353 posts
    March 27, 2015 7:29 AM PDT

    I disagree with so much of this I don't even know where to start...

     

    Kiz~

     

    Ok I guess I'll breakdown the classes quick and dirty on how I'd like them...

     

    Cleric: Prime Healer, Best Res, at least 1 good Stun, Undead DD, Best Stackable HP buff, AC buff.

     

    Crusader: LoH, Fast casting high mana cost Heal, Best AE undead Agro, Interrupts, Best tank versus caster mobs.

     

    Dread Lord: Single target and AE Lifetaps, AE Disease Cloud with high agro, HT, Limited fear kiting, Best tank versus groups of mobs.

     

    Druid: Ports to Druid groves, Best Thorn Shield, Good Charm Animal, Nature Buffs/Debuffs, Lull, Med-High DPS, High kiting potential(can cast on the run).

     

    Enchanter: Best CC, Mana regen buff, Best Charm, Best Counterspells, Best Haste/Medium Slow, Medium DPS(can cast on the run).

     

    Monk: Premier Puller, FD, High Evasion, A Knockdown, Best tank versus certain types of slow attacking but massive damage boss fights. The reason Monk needs to be a tank is because we will always need more tanks to form groups. There is never enough tanks so this helps that a bit. Also Monk should be the highest damaging but riskiest of the Tanks.

     

    Ranger: Create/Use Campfire(this will lower downtime but breaks if combat is engaged), Best Snare, Tracking, Outdoor only group Evac, Unique DPS buff, Longest Range if using a Longbow, Med-High DPS with bow or slightly higher with dual wield.

     

    Rogue: Best single target positional DPS, Some locked doors here and there only a rogue can pick, some utility gained through poisons, Best Hide/Sneak that doesn't arbitrarily break unless your spotted, extra corpse dragging functionality, some way at a high level to completely dump all your agro.

     

    Shaman: A buff for all resistances in one, HP buff, Best Slow/Medium Haste, A choice of a mediocre pet at some level(decent when buffed), Potion Making, DoT based DPS(maybe different curses and plagues), Potential to provide group healing, Best group cures.

     

    Summoner: Something a bit different here would be nice... for starter how about if when you have your pet out it gives the summoner a debuff to his damage but as soon as the pet drops the summoner goes back to full power, this way they are not gimped when their pet gets killed and pets can be stronger. Maybe different pets could have pros and cons in this regard. I'd like to see pets that have slots for element stones and depending on how you mix these determines what your pet turns out as. Like 5 firestones in your pet and its all fire but add 2 earthstones and it becomes a volcano pet. Anyways summoners need to be high dps.

     

    Warrior: Best Single Target Boss Tank, Defensive Disciplines, Best single target agro control, Easiest class to play(but hardest to master), Medium DPS, Intercepts/Shield Walls, Highest potential HP's, Short term Shout type buffs/debuffs.

     

    Wizard: Undisputed Best AE dps, Ports to Wiz Spires, Evacs out of dungeons, A couple unpredictable spells that could end up in massive destruction if it turns out in your favor, Ability to end a fight fast at the cost of some downtime, A way to burn a gem expendable to get some mana back would be a cool way to seperate the rich wiz from the poor.

     

    Bard: Create a song is too awesome.

     

    Mystery Class: Bloodmage pls.

     

     

    Thanks again,

    Kiz~


    This post was edited by Angrykiz at March 27, 2015 8:50 AM PDT
    • 158 posts
    March 27, 2015 9:31 AM PDT

    I agree mostly with what AngryKiz said , except for the rouge part - for that I agree more with Gurt.

    I've always felt it odd that rouges were the highest DPS in most MMOs. A rouge classically should be great at stealth and critical hits but should only be medium on total dps. A rouge in most stories / media will avoid direct fights, instead going for the random cheap shot that will deal large damage but this shouldn't equate to standing behind and doing the most dps out of all the classes.

    • 110 posts
    March 27, 2015 3:15 PM PDT
    Angrykiz said:

    I disagree with so much of this I don't even know where to start...

     

    Kiz~

     

    Ok I guess I'll breakdown the classes quick and dirty on how I'd like them...

     

    Cleric: Prime Healer, Best Res, at least 1 good Stun, Undead DD, Best Stackable HP buff, AC buff.

     

    Crusader: LoH, Fast casting high mana cost Heal, Best AE undead Agro, Interrupts, Best tank versus caster mobs.

     

    Dread Lord: Single target and AE Lifetaps, AE Disease Cloud with high agro, HT, Limited fear kiting, Best tank versus groups of mobs.

     

    Druid: Ports to Druid groves, Best Thorn Shield, Good Charm Animal, Nature Buffs/Debuffs, Lull, Med-High DPS, High kiting potential(can cast on the run).

     

    Enchanter: Best CC, Mana regen buff, Best Charm, Best Counterspells, Best Haste/Medium Slow, Medium DPS(can cast on the run).

     

    Monk: Premier Puller, FD, High Evasion, A Knockdown, Best tank versus certain types of slow attacking but massive damage boss fights. The reason Monk needs to be a tank is because we will always need more tanks to form groups. There is never enough tanks so this helps that a bit. Also Monk should be the highest damaging but riskiest of the Tanks.

     

    Ranger: Create/Use Campfire(this will lower downtime but breaks if combat is engaged), Best Snare, Tracking, Outdoor only group Evac, Unique DPS buff, Longest Range if using a Longbow, Med-High DPS with bow or slightly higher with dual wield.

     

    Rogue: Best single target positional DPS, Some locked doors here and there only a rogue can pick, some utility gained through poisons, Best Hide/Sneak that doesn't arbitrarily break unless your spotted, extra corpse dragging functionality, some way at a high level to completely dump all your agro.

     

    Shaman: A buff for all resistances in one, HP buff, Best Slow/Medium Haste, A choice of a mediocre pet at some level(decent when buffed), Potion Making, DoT based DPS(maybe different curses and plagues), Potential to provide group healing, Best group cures.

     

    Summoner: Something a bit different here would be nice... for starter how about if when you have your pet out it gives the summoner a debuff to his damage but as soon as the pet drops the summoner goes back to full power, this way they are not gimped when their pet gets killed and pets can be stronger. Maybe different pets could have pros and cons in this regard. I'd like to see pets that have slots for element stones and depending on how you mix these determines what your pet turns out as. Like 5 firestones in your pet and its all fire but add 2 earthstones and it becomes a volcano pet. Anyways summoners need to be high dps.

     

    Warrior: Best Single Target Boss Tank, Defensive Disciplines, Best single target agro control, Easiest class to play(but hardest to master), Medium DPS, Intercepts/Shield Walls, Highest potential HP's, Short term Shout type buffs/debuffs.

     

    Wizard: Undisputed Best AE dps, Ports to Wiz Spires, Evacs out of dungeons, A couple unpredictable spells that could end up in massive destruction if it turns out in your favor, Ability to end a fight fast at the cost of some downtime, A way to burn a gem expendable to get some mana back would be a cool way to seperate the rich wiz from the poor.

     

    Bard: Create a song is too awesome.

     

    Mystery Class: Bloodmage pls.

     

     

    Thanks again,

    Kiz~

    I can agree with pretty much everything here, except for the bits about monks and rogues.

     

    The point of my post is to discuss balancing the classes around the utility they bring to the group with damage being the change that is added to make sure everyone gets an even dollar, so to speak.  The breakdown of the classes that I gave is how I'd like to see the classes if utility was what was being balanced around as opposed to damage.

     

    It is my opinion that balancing around utility will give a more enjoyable experience to everyone involved and will open the door for a more interesting game, because the devs would be pushed to making sure that every class has something they can bring to the group and we don't end up with anything resembling the ranger from EQ - a class that is invited to the group more for being a nice guy than useful.  Everyone wants to feel useful.

    • 295 posts
    March 27, 2015 5:18 PM PDT
    Angrykiz said:

    I disagree with so much of this I don't even know where to start...

     

    Kiz~

     

    Ok I guess I'll breakdown the classes quick and dirty on how I'd like them...

     

    Cleric: Prime Healer, Best Res, at least 1 good Stun, Undead DD, Best Stackable HP buff, AC buff.

     

    Crusader: LoH, Fast casting high mana cost Heal, Best AE undead Agro, Interrupts, Best tank versus caster mobs.

     

    Dread Lord: Single target and AE Lifetaps, AE Disease Cloud with high agro, HT, Limited fear kiting, Best tank versus groups of mobs.

     

    Druid: Ports to Druid groves, Best Thorn Shield, Good Charm Animal, Nature Buffs/Debuffs, Lull, Med-High DPS, High kiting potential(can cast on the run).

     

    Enchanter: Best CC, Mana regen buff, Best Charm, Best Counterspells, Best Haste/Medium Slow, Medium DPS(can cast on the run).

     

    Monk: Premier Puller, FD, High Evasion, A Knockdown, Best tank versus certain types of slow attacking but massive damage boss fights. The reason Monk needs to be a tank is because we will always need more tanks to form groups. There is never enough tanks so this helps that a bit. Also Monk should be the highest damaging but riskiest of the Tanks.

     

    Ranger: Create/Use Campfire(this will lower downtime but breaks if combat is engaged), Best Snare, Tracking, Outdoor only group Evac, Unique DPS buff, Longest Range if using a Longbow, Med-High DPS with bow or slightly higher with dual wield.

     

    Rogue: Best single target positional DPS, Some locked doors here and there only a rogue can pick, some utility gained through poisons, Best Hide/Sneak that doesn't arbitrarily break unless your spotted, extra corpse dragging functionality, some way at a high level to completely dump all your agro.

     

    Shaman: A buff for all resistances in one, HP buff, Best Slow/Medium Haste, A choice of a mediocre pet at some level(decent when buffed), Potion Making, DoT based DPS(maybe different curses and plagues), Potential to provide group healing, Best group cures.

     

    Summoner: Something a bit different here would be nice... for starter how about if when you have your pet out it gives the summoner a debuff to his damage but as soon as the pet drops the summoner goes back to full power, this way they are not gimped when their pet gets killed and pets can be stronger. Maybe different pets could have pros and cons in this regard. I'd like to see pets that have slots for element stones and depending on how you mix these determines what your pet turns out as. Like 5 firestones in your pet and its all fire but add 2 earthstones and it becomes a volcano pet. Anyways summoners need to be high dps.

     

    Warrior: Best Single Target Boss Tank, Defensive Disciplines, Best single target agro control, Easiest class to play(but hardest to master), Medium DPS, Intercepts/Shield Walls, Highest potential HP's, Short term Shout type buffs/debuffs.

     

    Wizard: Undisputed Best AE dps, Ports to Wiz Spires, Evacs out of dungeons, A couple unpredictable spells that could end up in massive destruction if it turns out in your favor, Ability to end a fight fast at the cost of some downtime, A way to burn a gem expendable to get some mana back would be a cool way to seperate the rich wiz from the poor.

     

    Bard: Create a song is too awesome.

     

    Mystery Class: Bloodmage pls.

     

     

    Thanks again,

    Kiz~

     

     

    I agree with most of this, I particularly LOVE the summoner idea.

     

    I would however like to say that I don't think people should be able to cast on the dead run, they should be slowed to a crawl when casting.

     

    I disagree that monks should be designated as tanks, they definitely should be designated as dps, however they may be able to tank in certain situations if player ingenuity is at a high level.

     

    I believe rogues should be the top dps for no other reason than they are one of the few to have a way to drop aggro.  Going all out in dps in the first few minutes of a raid boss fight should never be an option for anyone other than a rogue, this way the rogue isn't top dps just because he hits harder or faster, but because he is the master of deception and can make his enemy forget his previous actions.

     

    I feel warriors should be better dps than paladins or dread knights because warriors lack utility, however a warrior should never be within 20% of the dps of the top DPS classes.

    • Moderator
    • 8719 posts
    March 27, 2015 6:25 PM PDT
    jimm0thy said:

    I agree mostly with what AngryKiz said , except for the rouge part - for that I agree more with Gurt.

    I've always felt it odd that rouges were the highest DPS in most MMOs. A rouge classically should be great at stealth and critical hits but should only be medium on total dps. A rouge in most stories / media will avoid direct fights, instead going for the random cheap shot that will deal large damage but this shouldn't equate to standing behind and doing the most dps out of all the classes.

    I am glad a shade of Red is going to have medium Dps while Rogues hold the top melee Dps spot which they are very well known for. Rogues have always traditionally been very high melee Dps and thought of as the lightfighter "glass cannons" with similar if not higher Dps than Sorcs due to having positional limitations (backstab) and being within range of deadly AoEs and mob damage/effects, as in they have very high burst dps output but then if they do not kill their targets in time, they need to escape quickly usually with smoke and aggro drop abilities.

     

    Any other arguments for a Rogue being similar to a pirate, swashbuckler or having low/medium damage need to stay in other games that bastardised the class and away from Pantheon that is going with EQ/VG traditional classes.

    • 110 posts
    March 27, 2015 6:51 PM PDT
    Kilsin said:
    jimm0thy said:

    I agree mostly with what AngryKiz said , except for the rouge part - for that I agree more with Gurt.

    I've always felt it odd that rouges were the highest DPS in most MMOs. A rouge classically should be great at stealth and critical hits but should only be medium on total dps. A rouge in most stories / media will avoid direct fights, instead going for the random cheap shot that will deal large damage but this shouldn't equate to standing behind and doing the most dps out of all the classes.

    I am glad a shade of Red is going to have medium Dps while Rogues hold the top melee Dps spot which they are very well known for. Rogues have always traditionally been very high melee Dps and thought of as the lightfighter "glass cannons" with similar if not higher Dps than Sorcs due to having positional limitations (backstab) and being within range of deadly AoEs and mob damage/effects, as in they have very high burst dps output but then if they do not kill their targets in time, they need to escape quickly usually with smoke and aggro drop abilities.

     

    Any other arguments for a Rogue being similar to a pirate, swashbuckler or having low/medium damage need to stay in other games that bastardised the class and away from Pantheon that is going with EQ/VG traditional classes.

    Actually the EQ rogue (and by extension all rogues in modern mmorpgs) is based off the D&D rogue, which while capable of achieving high damage with very specific builds and prestige classes has always been firmly rooted as a thief first and combatant second.  The swashbuckling and pirate style rogues are no more bastardizations of the base class than the assassin style rogue is.

     

    As Jimothy correctly pointed out rogues are traditionally seen as people who avoid direct confrontation and use a single cheap shot or trick to beat or finish off an opponent who is already weakened.  The D&D rogue class has always reflected this.  Novels have always reflected this.  The only place this has been not the case is in mmorpgs.  Which is odd.

    • 295 posts
    March 27, 2015 6:55 PM PDT

    The Everquest rogue just felt right to me, everything about it felt right to me, besides some clunky backstab mechanics, and a lack of valid stealth vs other players, also it being quite dated :)

     

    So I'd like rogues to follow suit with Everquest rogues, swift auto-attacks, poisons, longer cooldown major positional damage abilities.

    • 357 posts
    March 27, 2015 8:24 PM PDT

    i also agree with all of the OP's statement except for the part about rogue DPS while i do not think that they should be outright TOP melee DPS (that belongs to the monk) but should be the TOP Burst Melee DPS, with decent utility. but the total dps of the rogue should be somewhere in the neighborhood of the ranger which is another high utility dps class

    • Moderator
    • 8719 posts
    March 27, 2015 8:31 PM PDT
    Gurt said:
    Kilsin said:
    jimm0thy said:

    I agree mostly with what AngryKiz said , except for the rouge part - for that I agree more with Gurt.

    I've always felt it odd that rouges were the highest DPS in most MMOs. A rouge classically should be great at stealth and critical hits but should only be medium on total dps. A rouge in most stories / media will avoid direct fights, instead going for the random cheap shot that will deal large damage but this shouldn't equate to standing behind and doing the most dps out of all the classes.

    I am glad a shade of Red is going to have medium Dps while Rogues hold the top melee Dps spot which they are very well known for. Rogues have always traditionally been very high melee Dps and thought of as the lightfighter "glass cannons" with similar if not higher Dps than Sorcs due to having positional limitations (backstab) and being within range of deadly AoEs and mob damage/effects, as in they have very high burst dps output but then if they do not kill their targets in time, they need to escape quickly usually with smoke and aggro drop abilities.

     

    Any other arguments for a Rogue being similar to a pirate, swashbuckler or having low/medium damage need to stay in other games that bastardised the class and away from Pantheon that is going with EQ/VG traditional classes.

    Actually the EQ rogue (and by extension all rogues in modern mmorpgs) is based off the D&D rogue, which while capable of achieving high damage with very specific builds and prestige classes has always been firmly rooted as a thief first and combatant second.  The swashbuckling and pirate style rogues are no more bastardizations of the base class than the assassin style rogue is.

     

    As Jimothy correctly pointed out rogues are traditionally seen as people who avoid direct confrontation and use a single cheap shot or trick to beat or finish off an opponent who is already weakened.  The D&D rogue class has always reflected this.  Novels have always reflected this.  The only place this has been not the case is in mmorpgs.  Which is odd.

    I have to strongly disagree mate and I will link evidence to support my claim.


    EQ Description:

     

    http://everquest.wikia.com/wiki/Rogue

     

    "The rogue is a melee fighter that specializes in dealing dependable, sustained damage to one foe at a time and also possesses various abilities for stealth, exploration, poison making, and (at level 61+) minor crowd control.

    The class's iconic offensive action is its ability to backstab, a special attack that deals heavy damage if used against the rear arc of an opponent's body but fails if the intended victim is facing the rogue."

     

    "The class's strong damage output, satisfying translation of weapon upgrades and offensive buffs into bigger damage, ability to stealth around, and ability to enhance others' melee damage by making poisons all contribute to making the rogue a helpful and fun class to include in a dedicated play group that will contain one or more other melee fighters and intends on doing a lot of dungeon crawling while advancing in levels."

     

    VG Description:

     

    http://vanguard.wikia.com/wiki/Rogue

     

    "Rogue's are deadly melee combatant's who rely on deception and misdirection. With the ability to hide in plain sight, the Rogue is able to sneak up on unsuspecting opponents, poison them and then launch a devastating surprise attack. A Rogue is also talented in the use of a variety of poisons and gadgets. The various components for these items don't come cheap, which is why the Rogue is also an expert Thief. The Rogue wields a variety of light and ranged weapons and wears medium armour."

     

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vanguard:_Saga_of_Heroes#Classes

     

    • Offensive Fighter (melee damage dealer, wears medium armor)
      • Ranger (dual weapon and ranged specialist, stealth, some druidic magic)
      • Rogue (dagger, stealth and poison specialist, top melee dps)
      • Monk (fake death and martial arts specialist, jin point system, 3 specializations at level 15)
        • Drunken Monk: tank version with aggro abilities and increased defense.
        • Dragon Monk: damage dealing specialist.
        • Harmonious Monk: debuffer specialist and generalist (REMOVED).
      • Bard (utility specialist with strong group buffs aka songs that can be freely designed from a set of basic components)

     

    Vanguard Saga of heroes Box - Class description of a Rogue:

     

    "Preferring to strike from the shadows, the Rogue is an underhanded fighter who will do anything to win. As a Rogue, you're a damage dealer of the first order, but require the assistance of others (to provide a distraction) in order to reach your full potential. You gain many abilities that work with your sneaky nature. Among the most important, you gain the innate ability to render yourself virtually undetectable. As long as nothing detects you and you're not directly attacked, you can remain in this state. This enables you to stalk your opponents. The longer you stalk, the more benefit you gain from it. Your attacks are less likely to draw attention, cost less, are more accurate, and deal more damage. Most Rogue attacks will not break stealth, so long as you're never directly attacked, you can maintain this bonus. This takes careful planning and execution. Should you be revealed, you can re-enter stealth during combat, which allows you to begin the stalking process again."


    It then goes to to describe Poisons and Devices which you can read for yourself if you choose.

     

    D&D had multiple descriptions but most of them explained an even balance of damage and stealth.

    Just another reminder that Pantheon is being based on EQ and VG, therefore that is where I base all of my arguments on when I discuss most things related to Pantheon.

     

    In my research, I had found 1-2 sites that had poor descriptions of the Rogue class but the majority and more well known and most accepted sites described Rogues to be high end damage dealers with stealth and poisons/drop aggro/darts and were a mix of high burst then medium sustained damage, which is exactly how I envision the Rogue class to be and what I enjoyed with EQ and VG for many years as my main characters.

    • Moderator
    • 8719 posts
    March 27, 2015 8:39 PM PDT
    Gawd said:

    i also agree with all of the OP's statement except for the part about rogue DPS while i do not think that they should be outright TOP melee DPS (that belongs to the monk) but should be the TOP Burst Melee DPS, with decent utility. but the total dps of the rogue should be somewhere in the neighborhood of the ranger which is another high utility dps class

    You have to be reasonable mate, even if Monk is your favorite class. You cannot expect to off tank, pull, evade, FD and have top Dps with no positional limitations, that is just being silly.

     

    Rogues are always at a disadvantage being at the back of the mob and locked in stealth to reach maximum dps, we have a few poison debuff darts and stealth which is a class must for us, we need to maintain stealth to do our max damage output and controlling our Dps to not pull aggro is a big part of that, once we do pull aggro, we lose all dps bonuses and have to start all over again, while taking damaging from AoEs etc. We also have less survivability than Monks since your evade and dodge is so high plus with off tanking stances.

     

    Monks have way too much utility to be top Dps, you can't expect to be everything, even though many people will want the best for their main classes, we have to be reasonable and mature about it ;)

    • 158 posts
    March 27, 2015 8:44 PM PDT
    Kilsin said:
    Gurt said:
    Kilsin said:
    jimm0thy said:

    I agree mostly with what AngryKiz said , except for the rouge part - for that I agree more with Gurt.

    I've always felt it odd that rouges were the highest DPS in most MMOs. A rouge classically should be great at stealth and critical hits but should only be medium on total dps. A rouge in most stories / media will avoid direct fights, instead going for the random cheap shot that will deal large damage but this shouldn't equate to standing behind and doing the most dps out of all the classes.

    I am glad a shade of Red is going to have medium Dps while Rogues hold the top melee Dps spot which they are very well known for. Rogues have always traditionally been very high melee Dps and thought of as the lightfighter "glass cannons" with similar if not higher Dps than Sorcs due to having positional limitations (backstab) and being within range of deadly AoEs and mob damage/effects, as in they have very high burst dps output but then if they do not kill their targets in time, they need to escape quickly usually with smoke and aggro drop abilities.

     

    Any other arguments for a Rogue being similar to a pirate, swashbuckler or having low/medium damage need to stay in other games that bastardised the class and away from Pantheon that is going with EQ/VG traditional classes.

    Actually the EQ rogue (and by extension all rogues in modern mmorpgs) is based off the D&D rogue, which while capable of achieving high damage with very specific builds and prestige classes has always been firmly rooted as a thief first and combatant second.  The swashbuckling and pirate style rogues are no more bastardizations of the base class than the assassin style rogue is.

     

    As Jimothy correctly pointed out rogues are traditionally seen as people who avoid direct confrontation and use a single cheap shot or trick to beat or finish off an opponent who is already weakened.  The D&D rogue class has always reflected this.  Novels have always reflected this.  The only place this has been not the case is in mmorpgs.  Which is odd.

    I have to strongly disagree mate and I will link evidence to support my claim.


    EQ Description:

     

    http://everquest.wikia.com/wiki/Rogue

     

    "The rogue is a melee fighter that specializes in dealing dependable, sustained damage to one foe at a time and also possesses various abilities for stealth, exploration, poison making, and (at level 61+) minor crowd control.

    The class's iconic offensive action is its ability to backstab, a special attack that deals heavy damage if used against the rear arc of an opponent's body but fails if the intended victim is facing the rogue."

     

    "The class's strong damage output, satisfying translation of weapon upgrades and offensive buffs into bigger damage, ability to stealth around, and ability to enhance others' melee damage by making poisons all contribute to making the rogue a helpful and fun class to include in a dedicated play group that will contain one or more other melee fighters and intends on doing a lot of dungeon crawling while advancing in levels."

     

    VG Description:

     

    http://vanguard.wikia.com/wiki/Rogue

     

    "Rogue's are deadly melee combatant's who rely on deception and misdirection. With the ability to hide in plain sight, the Rogue is able to sneak up on unsuspecting opponents, poison them and then launch a devastating surprise attack. A Rogue is also talented in the use of a variety of poisons and gadgets. The various components for these items don't come cheap, which is why the Rogue is also an expert Thief. The Rogue wields a variety of light and ranged weapons and wears medium armour."

     

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vanguard:_Saga_of_Heroes#Classes

     

    • Offensive Fighter (melee damage dealer, wears medium armor)
      • Ranger (dual weapon and ranged specialist, stealth, some druidic magic)
      • Rogue (dagger, stealth and poison specialist, top melee dps)
      • Monk (fake death and martial arts specialist, jin point system, 3 specializations at level 15)
        • Drunken Monk: tank version with aggro abilities and increased defense.
        • Dragon Monk: damage dealing specialist.
        • Harmonious Monk: debuffer specialist and generalist (REMOVED).
      • Bard (utility specialist with strong group buffs aka songs that can be freely designed from a set of basic components)

     

    Vanguard Saga of heroes Box - Class description of a Rogue:

     

    "Preferring to strike from the shadows, the Rogue is an underhanded fighter who will do anything to win. As a Rogue, you're a damage dealer of the first order, but require the assistance of others (to provide a distraction) in order to reach your full potential. You gain many abilities that work with your sneaky nature. Among the most important, you gain the innate ability to render yourself virtually undetectable. As long as nothing detects you and you're not directly attacked, you can remain in this state. This enables you to stalk your opponents. The longer you stalk, the more benefit you gain from it. Your attacks are less likely to draw attention, cost less, are more accurate, and deal more damage. Most Rogue attacks will not break stealth, so long as you're never directly attacked, you can maintain this bonus. This takes careful planning and execution. Should you be revealed, you can re-enter stealth during combat, which allows you to begin the stalking process again."


    It then goes to to describe Poisons and Devices which you can read for yourself if you choose.

     

    D&D had multiple descriptions but most of them explained an even balance of damage and stealth.

    Just another reminder that Pantheon is being based on EQ and VG, therefore that is where I base all of my arguments on when I discuss most things related to Pantheon.

     

    In my research, I had found 1-2 sites that had poor descriptions of the Rogue class but the majority and more well known and most accepted sites described Rogues to be high end damage dealers with stealth and poisons/drop aggro/darts and were a mix of high burst then medium sustained damage, which is exactly how I envision the Rogue class to be and what I enjoyed with EQ and VG for many years as my main characters.

     

     

    Problem is that you're basing "evidence" off of EQ , VG , and other MMO rouges while Gurt and myself are saying the MMO rouge is fundamentally wrong for a rouge. I started playing MMOs with EQ and its why I'm here but I can still say things didnt seem right and the rouge class has always been one.

    Also while Pantheon is being influenced by the style of MMO EQ and VG were , its not taking things exactly so saying it was this way in EQ / VG so it has to be the same way in Pantheon doesn't really work.

    • 110 posts
    March 27, 2015 8:56 PM PDT
    Kilsin said:
    Gurt said:
    Kilsin said:
    jimm0thy said:

    I agree mostly with what AngryKiz said , except for the rouge part - for that I agree more with Gurt.

    I've always felt it odd that rouges were the highest DPS in most MMOs. A rouge classically should be great at stealth and critical hits but should only be medium on total dps. A rouge in most stories / media will avoid direct fights, instead going for the random cheap shot that will deal large damage but this shouldn't equate to standing behind and doing the most dps out of all the classes.

    I am glad a shade of Red is going to have medium Dps while Rogues hold the top melee Dps spot which they are very well known for. Rogues have always traditionally been very high melee Dps and thought of as the lightfighter "glass cannons" with similar if not higher Dps than Sorcs due to having positional limitations (backstab) and being within range of deadly AoEs and mob damage/effects, as in they have very high burst dps output but then if they do not kill their targets in time, they need to escape quickly usually with smoke and aggro drop abilities.

     

    Any other arguments for a Rogue being similar to a pirate, swashbuckler or having low/medium damage need to stay in other games that bastardised the class and away from Pantheon that is going with EQ/VG traditional classes.

    Actually the EQ rogue (and by extension all rogues in modern mmorpgs) is based off the D&D rogue, which while capable of achieving high damage with very specific builds and prestige classes has always been firmly rooted as a thief first and combatant second.  The swashbuckling and pirate style rogues are no more bastardizations of the base class than the assassin style rogue is.

     

    As Jimothy correctly pointed out rogues are traditionally seen as people who avoid direct confrontation and use a single cheap shot or trick to beat or finish off an opponent who is already weakened.  The D&D rogue class has always reflected this.  Novels have always reflected this.  The only place this has been not the case is in mmorpgs.  Which is odd.

    I have to strongly disagree mate and I will link evidence to support my claim.


    EQ Description:

     

    http://everquest.wikia.com/wiki/Rogue

     

    "The rogue is a melee fighter that specializes in dealing dependable, sustained damage to one foe at a time and also possesses various abilities for stealth, exploration, poison making, and (at level 61+) minor crowd control.

    The class's iconic offensive action is its ability to backstab, a special attack that deals heavy damage if used against the rear arc of an opponent's body but fails if the intended victim is facing the rogue."

     

    "The class's strong damage output, satisfying translation of weapon upgrades and offensive buffs into bigger damage, ability to stealth around, and ability to enhance others' melee damage by making poisons all contribute to making the rogue a helpful and fun class to include in a dedicated play group that will contain one or more other melee fighters and intends on doing a lot of dungeon crawling while advancing in levels."

     

    VG Description:

     

    http://vanguard.wikia.com/wiki/Rogue

     

    "Rogue's are deadly melee combatant's who rely on deception and misdirection. With the ability to hide in plain sight, the Rogue is able to sneak up on unsuspecting opponents, poison them and then launch a devastating surprise attack. A Rogue is also talented in the use of a variety of poisons and gadgets. The various components for these items don't come cheap, which is why the Rogue is also an expert Thief. The Rogue wields a variety of light and ranged weapons and wears medium armour."

     

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vanguard:_Saga_of_Heroes#Classes

     

    • Offensive Fighter (melee damage dealer, wears medium armor)
      • Ranger (dual weapon and ranged specialist, stealth, some druidic magic)
      • Rogue (dagger, stealth and poison specialist, top melee dps)
      • Monk (fake death and martial arts specialist, jin point system, 3 specializations at level 15)
        • Drunken Monk: tank version with aggro abilities and increased defense.
        • Dragon Monk: damage dealing specialist.
        • Harmonious Monk: debuffer specialist and generalist (REMOVED).
      • Bard (utility specialist with strong group buffs aka songs that can be freely designed from a set of basic components)

     

    Vanguard Saga of heroes Box - Class description of a Rogue:

     

    "Preferring to strike from the shadows, the Rogue is an underhanded fighter who will do anything to win. As a Rogue, you're a damage dealer of the first order, but require the assistance of others (to provide a distraction) in order to reach your full potential. You gain many abilities that work with your sneaky nature. Among the most important, you gain the innate ability to render yourself virtually undetectable. As long as nothing detects you and you're not directly attacked, you can remain in this state. This enables you to stalk your opponents. The longer you stalk, the more benefit you gain from it. Your attacks are less likely to draw attention, cost less, are more accurate, and deal more damage. Most Rogue attacks will not break stealth, so long as you're never directly attacked, you can maintain this bonus. This takes careful planning and execution. Should you be revealed, you can re-enter stealth during combat, which allows you to begin the stalking process again."


    It then goes to to describe Poisons and Devices which you can read for yourself if you choose.

     

    D&D had multiple descriptions but most of them explained an even balance of damage and stealth.

    Just another reminder that Pantheon is being based on EQ and VG, therefore that is where I base all of my arguments on when I discuss most things related to Pantheon.

     

    In my research, I had found 1-2 sites that had poor descriptions of the Rogue class but the majority and more well known and most accepted sites described Rogues to be high end damage dealers with stealth and poisons/drop aggro/darts and were a mix of high burst then medium sustained damage, which is exactly how I envision the Rogue class to be and what I enjoyed with EQ and VG for many years as my main characters.

    I cannot and will not argue that rogues in mmorpgs are typically classes with a high focus on dps.  To attempt to do so would be foolish.  However it is important to realize that this is in no small part because EQ decided to put a focus on damage for the class rather than a focus on being a skill monkey.

     

    In almost all versions of D&D - the game that muds and EQ drew from when creating their classes - rogues are primarily skill focused with some situational damage.

     

    http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/rogue.htm

    Look at those skill points! That's 8 + int mod, more than any other base class in 3.5!  Sneak attack by comparison has huge limitations and while a moderate DPS increase, the weapons that a rogue is proficient in are all lower damage weapons.

     

    From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rogue_(Dungeons_%26_Dragons)

    In 2nd edition the term "Rogue" first appeared, used to describe the group of classes made up of those individuals "living by their wits day to day-often at the expense of others." In the core rules, these "rogue" classes were the thief and the bard. Thieves could be of any alignment other than lawful good while bards had to be at least partially neutral.

    The thief was the robber, the thug, or the "expert treasure hunter". They specialized in the acquisition of goods, stealth, and disarming traps. Unlike in 1st edition, 2nd edition allows thieves to specialize in skills so that they needed only a few levels to master two skills.

    The assassin class, a sub-class of the thief in first edition, was excluded from the second edition core rules. The assumption was that an assassin could be treated mechanically as a normal thief who simply specialized in assassination-related skills.

     

    In other pen and paper games we see rogues being first and foremost stealth and skill based characters with damage taking more of a backseat role.

    From http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue

    Rogues excel at moving about unseen and catching foes unaware, and tend to avoid head-to-head combat. Their varied skills and abilities allow them to be highly versatile, with great variations in expertise existing between different rogues. Most, however, excel in overcoming hindrances of all types, from unlocking doors and disarming traps to outwitting magical hazards and conning dull-witted opponents.

    I'm completely with you in that Pantheon should be more based off of EQ and VG than other MMOs, but based off of doesn't mean carbon copy and rogues have been around longer than EQ, and we don't need to look very far out of MMOs to see rogues being more skill and stealth focused rather than damage focused.

    • 295 posts
    March 27, 2015 9:11 PM PDT

    You guys are arguing semantics.... call the rogue whatever you want to make it fit your fantasy D&D universe, I want it to be like the Everquest rogue.

    • Moderator
    • 8719 posts
    March 27, 2015 9:49 PM PDT

    I don't want to quote again to continue the huge quote trail, we will have to agree to disagree, we are not talking about D&D or any other games other than EQ/VG, Pantheon is set to be the spiritual successor to those games, so that is what I base my arguments on as they are what influences this game.

     

    My experiences lies with the EQ and VG Rogues, both of which I played for years, VG is my favorite of the two and was my main for 4-5 years, that is the Rogue I would like to see in Pantheon personally.

     

    FYI,

    Rouge = a shade of the colour red,

    Rogue = the class we are talking about ;)

    • 110 posts
    March 27, 2015 10:00 PM PDT
    Kilsin said:

    I don't want to quote again to continue the huge quote trail, we will have to agree to disagree, we are not talking about D&D or any other games other than EQ/VG, Pantheon is set to be the spiritual successor to those games, so that is what I base my arguments on as they are what influences this game.

     

    My experiences lies with the EQ and VG Rogues, both of which I played for years, VG is my favorite of the two and was my main for 4-5 years, that is the Rogue I would like to see in Pantheon personally.

     

    FYI,

    Rouge = a shade of the colour red,

    Rogue = the class we are talking about ;)

    I can live with agreeing to disagree.

     

    I love rogues in both MMOs and Pen and Paper games and from my experience in both genres the Pen and Paper skill focused lower damage rogue is much more satisfying to play and group with.  I understand that Pantheon is a spiritual successor to both EQ and VG, but it also needs to be different from both of those games in some areas and I honestly believe that to be the best game it could be Pantheon needs to give skill monkey rogues a chance.

    • 357 posts
    March 27, 2015 10:50 PM PDT
    Kilsin said:
    Gawd said:

    i also agree with all of the OP's statement except for the part about rogue DPS while i do not think that they should be outright TOP melee DPS (that belongs to the monk) but should be the TOP Burst Melee DPS, with decent utility. but the total dps of the rogue should be somewhere in the neighborhood of the ranger which is another high utility dps class

    You have to be reasonable mate, even if Monk is your favorite class. You cannot expect to off tank, pull, evade, FD and have top Dps with no positional limitations, that is just being silly.

     

    Rogues are always at a disadvantage being at the back of the mob and locked in stealth to reach maximum dps, we have a few poison debuff darts and stealth which is a class must for us, we need to maintain stealth to do our max damage output and controlling our Dps to not pull aggro is a big part of that, once we do pull aggro, we lose all dps bonuses and have to start all over again, while taking damaging from AoEs etc. We also have less survivability than Monks since your evade and dodge is so high plus with off tanking stances.

     

    Monks have way too much utility to be top Dps, you can't expect to be everything, even though many people will want the best for their main classes, we have to be reasonable and mature about it ;)

    first my favorite class is shaman.

    monks have FD, and some pulling support abilites. monks are not tanks. even in VG where there were the Drunken Fist monks as a healer i would never join a group that had a monk tank. Drunken fist was the worst thing ever done to the monk, they lost a big chunk of DPS and still couldnt tank.

     

    rogues on the other hand if we use the VG model can pull, CC, escape battle (which is just as good as FD), and top the DPS charts. in VG it was to the point for every group i was looking for a rogue to be a part of it. the utility of a rogue is far and above any other Melee DPS class. sure you die faster but the advantages are clear. now if we use the EQ rogue where all they can do is stealth, poison, lockpick then i have no problem with the rogue being the top sustained dpser.


    This post was edited by Gawd at March 27, 2015 10:59 PM PDT
    • Moderator
    • 8719 posts
    March 27, 2015 11:52 PM PDT
    Gawd said:
    Kilsin said:
    Gawd said:

    i also agree with all of the OP's statement except for the part about rogue DPS while i do not think that they should be outright TOP melee DPS (that belongs to the monk) but should be the TOP Burst Melee DPS, with decent utility. but the total dps of the rogue should be somewhere in the neighborhood of the ranger which is another high utility dps class

    You have to be reasonable mate, even if Monk is your favorite class. You cannot expect to off tank, pull, evade, FD and have top Dps with no positional limitations, that is just being silly.

     

    Rogues are always at a disadvantage being at the back of the mob and locked in stealth to reach maximum dps, we have a few poison debuff darts and stealth which is a class must for us, we need to maintain stealth to do our max damage output and controlling our Dps to not pull aggro is a big part of that, once we do pull aggro, we lose all dps bonuses and have to start all over again, while taking damaging from AoEs etc. We also have less survivability than Monks since your evade and dodge is so high plus with off tanking stances.

     

    Monks have way too much utility to be top Dps, you can't expect to be everything, even though many people will want the best for their main classes, we have to be reasonable and mature about it ;)

    first my favorite class is shaman.

    monks have FD, and some pulling support abilites. monks are not tanks. even in VG where there were the Drunken Fist monks as a healer i would never join a group that had a monk tank. Drunken fist was the worst thing ever done to the monk, they lost a big chunk of DPS and still couldnt tank.

     

    rogues on the other hand if we use the VG model can pull, CC, escape battle (which is just as good as FD), and top the DPS charts. in VG it was to the point for every group i was looking for a rogue to be a part of it. the utility of a rogue is far and above any other Melee DPS class. sure you die faster but the advantages are clear. now if we use the EQ rogue where all they can do is stealth, poison, lockpick then i have no problem with the rogue being the top sustained dpser.

    I am not sure we played the same game mate, there was 4 endgame main Rogues, we all knew each other well and stuck together to try to rectify the mess that entangled the Rogue class.

    Never were we first pick for anything, let alone a group that could have easily picked a Monk with infinite FD to recover wipes and some self healing while being able to off tank or a Bard with insane song utility for the whole group that also have CC, invis, healing etc, whether you agree with the stances or capabilities of the Monks doesn't matter, they still had the edge over the Rogues in most cases, in VG at least and that should never have been the case for the most part.

     

    I am not going to get into another debate over it though, I spent many years of my VG life speaking up for the Rogue class and I and my fellow Rogues knew better than anyone what our class was capable of and limited by, you can check the old VG forums which are still online, to read through all of the changes and nerf plus broken abilities we had to deal with over the years.

     

    This is Pantheon though and this game will be challenging, no class will be able to do it all do if you don't play a Monk as a main class, be careful what you wish for, more Dps will come with a loss of something else and a boost to other classes to compensate, also speaking about other main classes that are not your own will usually have negative social consequences when the time comes for your class to get attention, we saw this in VG and it wasn't pretty at all, people speaking their mind on all classes which angered players who played those classes as a main and not just saving their voice for their own main class and the nerf bat got swung hard with other class members teaming up to hinder other class tweaks. I would hope that we do not see that here but with a lot of people that like to comment on many things whether it relates to them or not will be interesting, we will need to be careful to only give feedback on Classes you are passionate about to avoid any risk of other main classes getting angry and speaking up about Shaman's and other classes.


    This is where I would like the Class Lead system to come into play and I plan on putting together a really solid program with Joppa, so we can make sure this doesn't happen and we get the best people leading each class, more on that later though.

    • 52 posts
    March 28, 2015 12:14 AM PDT

    Well im just popping into say IMO as far as rogues go Vanguard nailed it. Pain in the ass to do anything solo but a blast to play in groups and just the mechanics alone of the Vanguard rogue makes want to cry thinking about how much i miss playing my rogue. As for all these comments about the rogue being lowest melee dps all i can say is ??? what are you thinking lol. But that is my opion and of course i totaly agree with kislin on this issue. Man i really wish vanguard was still running for all you that didnt have a chance to play it. They nailed every class and play style in that game. There wasnt one class i didnt enjoy playing and i played them all. But the rogue was by far my favorite.

    • 357 posts
    March 28, 2015 2:33 AM PDT

    i intend to comment on all classes, because i intend to play all of the classes. in no game have i ever stuck with one class. i hesitate to even use the term "Main" because i tend to spend the same amount of time playing all the classes. I play one for a few months then get tired of it and go to another class for a change of flavor.

     

    and my knowledge of the rogue comes from the 1-50 VG, i have no knowledge of the 51-55 game.

     

    all anyone here is saying is that when balancing DPS classes into their Roles utility needs to be balanced with dps. if one class has lots of battle utility it should have less DPS than a class with little to no battle utility.

    • 110 posts
    March 28, 2015 7:21 AM PDT
    Kilsin said:

    I am not sure we played the same game mate, there was 4 endgame main Rogues, we all knew each other well and stuck together to try to rectify the mess that entangled the Rogue class.

    Never were we first pick for anything, let alone a group that could have easily picked a Monk with infinite FD to recover wipes and some self healing while being able to off tank or a Bard with insane song utility for the whole group that also have CC, invis, healing etc, whether you agree with the stances or capabilities of the Monks doesn't matter, they still had the edge over the Rogues in most cases, in VG at least and that should never have been the case for the most part.

    I am not going to get into another debate over it though, I spent many years of my VG life speaking up for the Rogue class and I and my fellow Rogues knew better than anyone what our class was capable of and limited by, you can check the old VG forums which are still online, to read through all of the changes and nerf plus broken abilities we had to deal with over the years.

    This is Pantheon though and this game will be challenging, no class will be able to do it all do if you don't play a Monk as a main class, be careful what you wish for, more Dps will come with a loss of something else and a boost to other classes to compensate, also speaking about other main classes that are not your own will usually have negative social consequences when the time comes for your class to get attention, we saw this in VG and it wasn't pretty at all, people speaking their mind on all classes which angered players who played those classes as a main and not just saving their voice for their own main class and the nerf bat got swung hard with other class members teaming up to hinder other class tweaks. I would hope that we do not see that here but with a lot of people that like to comment on many things whether it relates to them or not will be interesting, we will need to be careful to only give feedback on Classes you are passionate about to avoid any risk of other main classes getting angry and speaking up about Shaman's and other classes.


    This is where I would like the Class Lead system to come into play and I plan on putting together a really solid program with Joppa, so we can make sure this doesn't happen and we get the best people leading each class, more on that later though.

    I'm frankly shocked that you would suggest that only people who main a class should have a voice in how that class is balanced and designed.  The people who play and compete with and against rogues have just as valid opinions as the rogues themselves.  When you play a class that is being balanced it is impossible to be completely impartial and unbiased about what changes you want to see, and if only the rogues are listened to you'll end up with rogues being the strongest class until the paladin or warrior or whatever balance patch is completed next month.  This isn't good for the game.  Furthermore, if you must know I main warriors (EQOA, FFXIV, GW, WoW) and rogues (EQ, GW2, AA) in the vast majority of mmos I play, but like Gawd I try to play every class a little.

     

    I'll freely admit that I never got to play VG, I'd never even heard of it until about 2 months before they closed it.  So you may be right that the VG rogue was absolutely perfect in every way.  But the evidence I've seen from the dozen or so mmos that I've played over the years is that the PnP games handle rogues better.

     

    Every class should be wanted for raids.  Unless classes in Pantheon are balanced around the utility they bring to the group/raid this will not happen.

    • 158 posts
    March 28, 2015 8:52 AM PDT
    Kilsin said:

     

    FYI,

    Rouge = a shade of the colour red,

    Rogue = the class we are talking about ;)

     

     

    lol yeah I have always done that

    • 52 posts
    March 28, 2015 9:43 AM PDT

    then yes sadly you did miss vanguard because every class was unique and needed or wanted in raid. Now of course some encounters it would better better to have one class over another or some raids a certain class was needed at first. once guild was geared out as always it made it more trivial and you could run without said needed class in some fights. I have also played and raided in many MMO s . EQ,EQ2(easy and hard mode) LoTRO, AoC,WoW, and rift just name a few , but i guess ishould have said as kilsin did. This game is being made and brought to us by the guys that made EQ and vanguard. I know what you are saying just how you feel and i understand and if i felt as you do would say it to. I guess what i should say is that this isnt pen and paper it is brads vision and style of fantasy i dont see why he or they should change what is loved and not broken.