Quintra said:Can someone correct me if I'm wrong, but in early EQ (I don't know if mechanics have changed since then, my guess would be 'yes') but anyway, in early EQ if you ran far enough away from a mob, it would stop chasing you and go back to it's spawn points/scripted wander path. However, if you didn't drop aggro (FD, mem blur, etc) you were still on that mob's hate list, and if you got close enough (definitely farther than standard aggro range) it would come running after you, usually with any friends that were close by.
Even at 15+ years old, this mechanic seems the most realistice. E.g. you run, the mob chases you until it figures that it can't catch you. But if you come close enough, it will still remember who you are and come after you again (this is different that faction/KOS/ standard aggro range)
I specifically remember this in Karnor's Castle. I would run to the zone line, but NOT zone right away. I'd hit my train macro, and see if the mobs were still following me across the bridge. A lot of times they stopped. Since zoning took soooo long on my PC back then with 56k that I tried to avoid zoning if I could. Plus the risk of losing all your buffs if you zoned with low health. Anyway I digress. As I slowly made my way back to the camp, mobs which were normally far enough away that they wouldn't aggro came at me. If I was along I would have to run back to the zone all over again and actually zone to clear aggro. Or if I was with a group we'd just clear stuff out. But yeah... that's how I remember things working and honestly even thoday that seems the most realistic and reasonable mechanic.
I don't ever remember mobs stopping the chase in EQ, even when zoomed across a zone as a bard they would show up sooner or later. I can only imagine you trained some people in KC, as I was always chased to the zone. I know in LGuk I even saw the bloodthirsty ghoul at the zone line at least a few times.
HemlockReaper said:Rallyd said:To force zone design decisions to adhere to "Can the players break line of sight from xyz to zyx" is absolute insanity for a game with a AAA budget, to force those zone design decisions on a game with the small budget like Pantheon is just outside reality.
Imagine if they had to consider mobs requiring Line of Sight for continued aggro in some of your favorite dungeons in Everquest, what Sebilis would have looked like, what Unrest would have looked like... they would have made them flat zones with no structure just an open field...
I think your vastly underestimating this teams abilities. I know at least some have close to or more than 20 years experience making games. I think they can figure out how to do a line of sight check without calling tech support.
Agreed. It's not that hard to code line of sight. And their budget is probably not as small as you think anymore. I don't know how you can speak so confidently about that.
But anyway, whether or not it would make it too easy to outrun mobs in an indoor zone is a different question. That's a fair point and perhaps that's something that just needs to be fleshed out in testing.
Bazgrim said:HemlockReaper said:Rallyd said:To force zone design decisions to adhere to "Can the players break line of sight from xyz to zyx" is absolute insanity for a game with a AAA budget, to force those zone design decisions on a game with the small budget like Pantheon is just outside reality.
Imagine if they had to consider mobs requiring Line of Sight for continued aggro in some of your favorite dungeons in Everquest, what Sebilis would have looked like, what Unrest would have looked like... they would have made them flat zones with no structure just an open field...
I think your vastly underestimating this teams abilities. I know at least some have close to or more than 20 years experience making games. I think they can figure out how to do a line of sight check without calling tech support.
Agreed. It's not that hard to code line of sight. And their budget is probably not as small as you think anymore. I don't know how you can speak so confidently about that.
But anyway, whether or not it would make it too easy to outrun mobs in an indoor zone is a different question. That's a fair point and perhaps that's something that just needs to be fleshed out in testing.
So, you are looking at this a little to simplisticly. If you are in a cave, and you KNOW this cave because you live there, would YOU lose someone because they turned a corner and you can't see them? No. If they are still close enough to you, you could hear them. You could logically follow someone through a cave system if you knew the system. If you come to a fork and you know that the way out if left, you'd most liekly go left. This is because you know the quary is headed for the exit. An animal might have better sense of smell and can track you.
No take this "real world" logic and apply it to the game AI. LoS is not the ONLY factor. It should never be the ONLY factor. LoS needs to play a part, as does the distance from the mob to the PC, the mobs "will" factor as to how willing it is to continue the chase. These factors combined could make for some interesting interactions.
So in your example, in Sebilis where those Frogloks have lived for decades, they would have a high level of familiarity of the place. Being animal-like humanoids maybe they have better than average hearing or smell (taste?). Since they are in a dungeon and in their home, they might have a VERY high chance to continue the chase. Unless you can get MAJOR distance on them in the caves, they would almost certainly keep following you. If the mob is out of LoS for an extended period of time, like say 30 second sto a minute, then they may stop chasing you. This would make losing a mob in a dungeon fairly hard. Now that same Froglok type in TT who is outside it's home, in an area where it's qary is not funneled in a signle direction might have a much lower will to chase and it now becomes easier to break LoS for an extended period of time. I would, and should, be able to lose the mob much easier in this instance.
Mob type, LoS, environment, and circumstance can all be factored in statically on a mob per mob basis this way.
If mob x is in zone y it has this will factor, if mob x is in zone z it has this will factor. Then all the needs to be factored in dynamically is LoS and distance from mob to PC. Then Distance from mob to spawn point doesn't need to play a part and LoS doesn;t become the single factor. This would also make being chased by a mob more unpredictable. Some mobs might never stop chasing you in some circumstances where in others it might give up much sooner.
Eh, im fine with leashed, in fact I prefer it, but not so restricted that they'll reset after only a few yards. If for example, youre at some large enemy war camp and are seen, IMO they should chase your to at least back outside the vicinity of that camp, perhaps even a certain distance outside but not much. Nothing chases for ever, not even realistically. They get tired, give up, get bored, distracted, shift ends, realize they left the stove on, etc... what ever the reason, its more realistic IMO. MAYBE, if there is some hunter demon or bounty hunter type of mob whose sole purpose is to mark and hunt players then yes, but they should follow you no matter where until one of you dies.
TBH unchained mobs were in FFXI I believe and they were just annoying. I get there is a certain "nostalgia" some get when you have to run across an entire map to get away from a pull, but once you get the distance and can keep it that way, its really just a dull waste of time to use a game limitation as a means of escape. If challenge is the goal, or if pulling a skull mob should = death sentence, then id much prefer mobs that can move faster or have ranged attacks that can root or catch up. Also, and im sort of guessing here, but unchained mobs are likely easier to exploit, bug out, and likely a heavier burden on servers. EDIT: Worse yet, unleashed leads to camp groups... I @#&$ing HATE camp groups! Number 1 reason I left FFXI in a hurry... grinding as they did in streams is one thing... exploring, handling adds, reaching a boss... standing around waiting for pull? No... just no. I know the FAQ specifically mentioned it wont be the only way to level but god forbid that turns into the most efficient way, good luck finding a more traditional group.
Regarding the line of sight mechanic and escaping the mob.... Rather than thinking of it as only a visual mechanic, where if you turn enough corners in LGUK that the mob loses sight of you and leashes, I thought of it as being more of an overal distance thing...
If you get out of the clipping sight range of the mob (which the clipping range as has been shown in the live streams is immensely far) then the mob might leash. This could be the point at which the mob can't see, smell, or track you any longer or simply loses interest in the pursuit.
In a small indoor dungeon zone like LGUK, even if you rooted the mob and ran completely to the other side of the zone you couldn't get far enough away to get out of clipping range. So in theory, no mobs would leash in small zones or dungeons unless you zoned.
kellindil said:Bazgrim said:HemlockReaper said:Rallyd said:To force zone design decisions to adhere to "Can the players break line of sight from xyz to zyx" is absolute insanity for a game with a AAA budget, to force those zone design decisions on a game with the small budget like Pantheon is just outside reality.
Imagine if they had to consider mobs requiring Line of Sight for continued aggro in some of your favorite dungeons in Everquest, what Sebilis would have looked like, what Unrest would have looked like... they would have made them flat zones with no structure just an open field...
I think your vastly underestimating this teams abilities. I know at least some have close to or more than 20 years experience making games. I think they can figure out how to do a line of sight check without calling tech support.
Agreed. It's not that hard to code line of sight. And their budget is probably not as small as you think anymore. I don't know how you can speak so confidently about that.
But anyway, whether or not it would make it too easy to outrun mobs in an indoor zone is a different question. That's a fair point and perhaps that's something that just needs to be fleshed out in testing.
So, you are looking at this a little to simplisticly. If you are in a cave, and you KNOW this cave because you live there, would YOU lose someone because they turned a corner and you can't see them? No. If they are still close enough to you, you could hear them. You could logically follow someone through a cave system if you knew the system. If you come to a fork and you know that the way out if left, you'd most liekly go left. This is because you know the quary is headed for the exit. An animal might have better sense of smell and can track you.
No take this "real world" logic and apply it to the game AI. LoS is not the ONLY factor. It should never be the ONLY factor. LoS needs to play a part, as does the distance from the mob to the PC, the mobs "will" factor as to how willing it is to continue the chase. These factors combined could make for some interesting interactions.
So in your example, in Sebilis where those Frogloks have lived for decades, they would have a high level of familiarity of the place. Being animal-like humanoids maybe they have better than average hearing or smell (taste?). Since they are in a dungeon and in their home, they might have a VERY high chance to continue the chase. Unless you can get MAJOR distance on them in the caves, they would almost certainly keep following you. If the mob is out of LoS for an extended period of time, like say 30 second sto a minute, then they may stop chasing you. This would make losing a mob in a dungeon fairly hard. Now that same Froglok type in TT who is outside it's home, in an area where it's qary is not funneled in a signle direction might have a much lower will to chase and it now becomes easier to break LoS for an extended period of time. I would, and should, be able to lose the mob much easier in this instance.
Mob type, LoS, environment, and circumstance can all be factored in statically on a mob per mob basis this way.
If mob x is in zone y it has this will factor, if mob x is in zone z it has this will factor. Then all the needs to be factored in dynamically is LoS and distance from mob to PC. Then Distance from mob to spawn point doesn't need to play a part and LoS doesn;t become the single factor. This would also make being chased by a mob more unpredictable. Some mobs might never stop chasing you in some circumstances where in others it might give up much sooner.
I was not really strictly suggesting that the instant you break LOS with a mob, they stop chasing you. I agree with everything you said. The only thing I'd add is that unless a mob saw you turn a corner, they would have to just guess as to which direction you went at an intersection. And they may just assume that you're going to the entrance. Or maybe they randomly pick a direction. (Depends on the intelligence of the mob). They would investigate a little further, but as you said, if they don't see (or hear, smell, etc.) you after looking around a couple corners, they won't have any idea where you went and would probably just give up. Therefore, doubling back and/or taking multiple consecutive quick corners would probably be the best way to shake them off in a tight indoor zone. It starts to get a little tricky in the coding, but that would be ideal.
Wellspring said:Regarding the line of sight mechanic and escaping the mob.... Rather than thinking of it as only a visual mechanic, where if you turn enough corners in LGUK that the mob loses sight of you and leashes, I thought of it as being more of an overal distance thing...
If you get out of the clipping sight range of the mob (which the clipping range as has been shown in the live streams is immensely far) then the mob might leash. This could be the point at which the mob can't see, smell, or track you any longer or simply loses interest in the pursuit.
In a small indoor dungeon zone like LGUK, even if you rooted the mob and ran completely to the other side of the zone you couldn't get far enough away to get out of clipping range. So in theory, no mobs would leash in small zones or dungeons unless you zoned.
Clipping distance refers to the point at which your computer renders the graphics. That's a setting determined by your client. In Pantheon, it's only limited by your hardware capabilities. You shouldn't have a slider in your options menu that essentially controls when mobs leash. Therefore, the clipping point is not really applicable to how far a mob will chase you. Kellindil's explanation makes the most sense.
Mob leashing should be based on the mob AI. Certain mobs, like a mother bear protecting it's cub, may just chase you away from the area and quickly return.
A mindless skeleton may chase you forever.
I'd really like flavor rather than a arbitrary leash length.
I would like to see a variety of leashing mechanics based on different circumstances. Doesen't have to be anything crazy technical. Line of sight, how much aggro was built on the NPC ... the NPC's health %, distance, mob personalities. Seasoned players should have a better idea of the unique circumstances of each NPC type.
Bazgrim said:kellindil said:Bazgrim said:HemlockReaper said:Rallyd said:To force zone design decisions to adhere to "Can the players break line of sight from xyz to zyx" is absolute insanity for a game with a AAA budget, to force those zone design decisions on a game with the small budget like Pantheon is just outside reality.
Imagine if they had to consider mobs requiring Line of Sight for continued aggro in some of your favorite dungeons in Everquest, what Sebilis would have looked like, what Unrest would have looked like... they would have made them flat zones with no structure just an open field...
I think your vastly underestimating this teams abilities. I know at least some have close to or more than 20 years experience making games. I think they can figure out how to do a line of sight check without calling tech support.
Agreed. It's not that hard to code line of sight. And their budget is probably not as small as you think anymore. I don't know how you can speak so confidently about that.
But anyway, whether or not it would make it too easy to outrun mobs in an indoor zone is a different question. That's a fair point and perhaps that's something that just needs to be fleshed out in testing.
So, you are looking at this a little to simplisticly. If you are in a cave, and you KNOW this cave because you live there, would YOU lose someone because they turned a corner and you can't see them? No. If they are still close enough to you, you could hear them. You could logically follow someone through a cave system if you knew the system. If you come to a fork and you know that the way out if left, you'd most liekly go left. This is because you know the quary is headed for the exit. An animal might have better sense of smell and can track you.
No take this "real world" logic and apply it to the game AI. LoS is not the ONLY factor. It should never be the ONLY factor. LoS needs to play a part, as does the distance from the mob to the PC, the mobs "will" factor as to how willing it is to continue the chase. These factors combined could make for some interesting interactions.
So in your example, in Sebilis where those Frogloks have lived for decades, they would have a high level of familiarity of the place. Being animal-like humanoids maybe they have better than average hearing or smell (taste?). Since they are in a dungeon and in their home, they might have a VERY high chance to continue the chase. Unless you can get MAJOR distance on them in the caves, they would almost certainly keep following you. If the mob is out of LoS for an extended period of time, like say 30 second sto a minute, then they may stop chasing you. This would make losing a mob in a dungeon fairly hard. Now that same Froglok type in TT who is outside it's home, in an area where it's qary is not funneled in a signle direction might have a much lower will to chase and it now becomes easier to break LoS for an extended period of time. I would, and should, be able to lose the mob much easier in this instance.
Mob type, LoS, environment, and circumstance can all be factored in statically on a mob per mob basis this way.
If mob x is in zone y it has this will factor, if mob x is in zone z it has this will factor. Then all the needs to be factored in dynamically is LoS and distance from mob to PC. Then Distance from mob to spawn point doesn't need to play a part and LoS doesn;t become the single factor. This would also make being chased by a mob more unpredictable. Some mobs might never stop chasing you in some circumstances where in others it might give up much sooner.
I was not really strictly suggesting that the instant you break LOS with a mob, they stop chasing you. I agree with everything you said. The only thing I'd add is that unless a mob saw you turn a corner, they would have to just guess as to which direction you went at an intersection. And they may just assume that you're going to the entrance. Or maybe they randomly pick a direction. (Depends on the intelligence of the mob). They would investigate a little further, but as you said, if they don't see (or hear, smell, etc.) you after looking around a couple corners, they won't have any idea where you went and would probably just give up. Therefore, doubling back and/or taking multiple consecutive quick corners would probably be the best way to shake them off in a tight indoor zone. It starts to get a little tricky in the coding, but that would be ideal.
Wellspring said:Regarding the line of sight mechanic and escaping the mob.... Rather than thinking of it as only a visual mechanic, where if you turn enough corners in LGUK that the mob loses sight of you and leashes, I thought of it as being more of an overal distance thing...
If you get out of the clipping sight range of the mob (which the clipping range as has been shown in the live streams is immensely far) then the mob might leash. This could be the point at which the mob can't see, smell, or track you any longer or simply loses interest in the pursuit.
In a small indoor dungeon zone like LGUK, even if you rooted the mob and ran completely to the other side of the zone you couldn't get far enough away to get out of clipping range. So in theory, no mobs would leash in small zones or dungeons unless you zoned.
Clipping distance refers to the point at which your computer renders the graphics. That's a setting determined by your client. In Pantheon, it's only limited by your hardware capabilities. You shouldn't have a slider in your options menu that essentially controls when mobs leash. Therefore, the clipping point is not really applicable to how far a mob will chase you. Kellindil's explanation makes the most sense.
Sorry for the confusion. I was simply using the clipping distance, as shown in the stream, as an example measurement of how far away I thought the escape distance leash should be. Not that I thought a player's clipping distance slider should affect a mobs leash.
Wellspring said:Bazgrim said:kellindil said:Bazgrim said:HemlockReaper said:Rallyd said:To force zone design decisions to adhere to "Can the players break line of sight from xyz to zyx" is absolute insanity for a game with a AAA budget, to force those zone design decisions on a game with the small budget like Pantheon is just outside reality.
Imagine if they had to consider mobs requiring Line of Sight for continued aggro in some of your favorite dungeons in Everquest, what Sebilis would have looked like, what Unrest would have looked like... they would have made them flat zones with no structure just an open field...
I think your vastly underestimating this teams abilities. I know at least some have close to or more than 20 years experience making games. I think they can figure out how to do a line of sight check without calling tech support.
Agreed. It's not that hard to code line of sight. And their budget is probably not as small as you think anymore. I don't know how you can speak so confidently about that.
But anyway, whether or not it would make it too easy to outrun mobs in an indoor zone is a different question. That's a fair point and perhaps that's something that just needs to be fleshed out in testing.
So, you are looking at this a little to simplisticly. If you are in a cave, and you KNOW this cave because you live there, would YOU lose someone because they turned a corner and you can't see them? No. If they are still close enough to you, you could hear them. You could logically follow someone through a cave system if you knew the system. If you come to a fork and you know that the way out if left, you'd most liekly go left. This is because you know the quary is headed for the exit. An animal might have better sense of smell and can track you.
No take this "real world" logic and apply it to the game AI. LoS is not the ONLY factor. It should never be the ONLY factor. LoS needs to play a part, as does the distance from the mob to the PC, the mobs "will" factor as to how willing it is to continue the chase. These factors combined could make for some interesting interactions.
So in your example, in Sebilis where those Frogloks have lived for decades, they would have a high level of familiarity of the place. Being animal-like humanoids maybe they have better than average hearing or smell (taste?). Since they are in a dungeon and in their home, they might have a VERY high chance to continue the chase. Unless you can get MAJOR distance on them in the caves, they would almost certainly keep following you. If the mob is out of LoS for an extended period of time, like say 30 second sto a minute, then they may stop chasing you. This would make losing a mob in a dungeon fairly hard. Now that same Froglok type in TT who is outside it's home, in an area where it's qary is not funneled in a signle direction might have a much lower will to chase and it now becomes easier to break LoS for an extended period of time. I would, and should, be able to lose the mob much easier in this instance.
Mob type, LoS, environment, and circumstance can all be factored in statically on a mob per mob basis this way.
If mob x is in zone y it has this will factor, if mob x is in zone z it has this will factor. Then all the needs to be factored in dynamically is LoS and distance from mob to PC. Then Distance from mob to spawn point doesn't need to play a part and LoS doesn;t become the single factor. This would also make being chased by a mob more unpredictable. Some mobs might never stop chasing you in some circumstances where in others it might give up much sooner.
I was not really strictly suggesting that the instant you break LOS with a mob, they stop chasing you. I agree with everything you said. The only thing I'd add is that unless a mob saw you turn a corner, they would have to just guess as to which direction you went at an intersection. And they may just assume that you're going to the entrance. Or maybe they randomly pick a direction. (Depends on the intelligence of the mob). They would investigate a little further, but as you said, if they don't see (or hear, smell, etc.) you after looking around a couple corners, they won't have any idea where you went and would probably just give up. Therefore, doubling back and/or taking multiple consecutive quick corners would probably be the best way to shake them off in a tight indoor zone. It starts to get a little tricky in the coding, but that would be ideal.
Wellspring said:Regarding the line of sight mechanic and escaping the mob.... Rather than thinking of it as only a visual mechanic, where if you turn enough corners in LGUK that the mob loses sight of you and leashes, I thought of it as being more of an overal distance thing...
If you get out of the clipping sight range of the mob (which the clipping range as has been shown in the live streams is immensely far) then the mob might leash. This could be the point at which the mob can't see, smell, or track you any longer or simply loses interest in the pursuit.
In a small indoor dungeon zone like LGUK, even if you rooted the mob and ran completely to the other side of the zone you couldn't get far enough away to get out of clipping range. So in theory, no mobs would leash in small zones or dungeons unless you zoned.
Clipping distance refers to the point at which your computer renders the graphics. That's a setting determined by your client. In Pantheon, it's only limited by your hardware capabilities. You shouldn't have a slider in your options menu that essentially controls when mobs leash. Therefore, the clipping point is not really applicable to how far a mob will chase you. Kellindil's explanation makes the most sense.
Sorry for the confusion. I was simply using the clipping distance, as shown in the stream, as an example measurement of how far away I thought the escape distance leash should be. Not that I thought a player's clipping distance slider should affect a mobs leash.
Ah I see. Well in open, outdoor zones that would certainly make sense. But I really think that from the mob's perspective, if you you can't see your enemy or at least have an idea as to where they went, the distance doesn't really matter. Their actions shouldn't be determined by any information other than what they could realistically gather from their own senses.
Iksar said:Holy blockquote Batman!
As long as mobs being damaged continue to follow so kiting can still happen.
Oops yeah I probably should have snipped that. Hopefully that's not against a forum guideline.
Anyway, I would assume damage would greatly increase a mob's motivation to continue the pursuit. In order to kite, you'd probably have to have eyes on them anyway though, therefore they could see you too and would of course keep chasing.
But that does bring up an interesting question - since kiting was emergent gameplay based on relatively primitive AI, is this something we really want? Yes it's fun, but wouldn't intelligent mobs eventually realize that following you around is fruitless and will only lead to their eventual death? Therefore, maybe they should try a different approach? Einstein said the definition of foolishness is trying the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. This may fit for brainless undead creatures. But I could argue that a supposedly intelligent guard, for example, would know better than to just keep running in circles while he gets dotted to death. This makes fights much more dynamic and interesting and challenges the player to come up with new strategies rather than just repetitively kiting.
Bazgrim said:Anyway, I would assume damage would greatly increase a mob's motivation to continue the pursuit. In order to kite, you'd probably have to have eyes on them anyway though, therefore they could see you too and would of course keep chasing.
But that does bring up an interesting question - since kiting was emergent gameplay based on relatively primitive AI, is this something we really want? Yes it's fun, but wouldn't intelligent mobs eventually realize that following you around is fruitless and will only lead to their eventual death? Therefore, maybe they should try a different approach? Einstein said the definition of foolishness is trying the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. This may fit for brainless undead creatures. But I could argue that a supposedly intelligent guard, for example, would know better than to just keep running in circles while he gets dotted to death. This makes fights much more dynamic and interesting and challenges the player to come up with new strategies rather than just repetitively kiting.
Ah but all this pushing for "realism" then leads to this: these intelligent mobs realize that following you is fruitless, then what? They run back home at increased speed and heal to full/rapidly regenerate whle they do so? Or do you just follow them back plinking away with no challenge because now they just hope they will make it home...while snared.
Unleashed with yelling for help and running if near dead to get help and create a train if uncontrolled. This makes skills like snare, root, mezz, stun, etc. real and valued.
Nothing like almost clearing a room and the mob is mortaly wounded .... runs into the next room and yells for help gaining a heal from the npc cleric and agroing the entire next room on ur group. =)
Iksar said:Bazgrim said:Anyway, I would assume damage would greatly increase a mob's motivation to continue the pursuit. In order to kite, you'd probably have to have eyes on them anyway though, therefore they could see you too and would of course keep chasing.
But that does bring up an interesting question - since kiting was emergent gameplay based on relatively primitive AI, is this something we really want? Yes it's fun, but wouldn't intelligent mobs eventually realize that following you around is fruitless and will only lead to their eventual death? Therefore, maybe they should try a different approach? Einstein said the definition of foolishness is trying the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. This may fit for brainless undead creatures. But I could argue that a supposedly intelligent guard, for example, would know better than to just keep running in circles while he gets dotted to death. This makes fights much more dynamic and interesting and challenges the player to come up with new strategies rather than just repetitively kiting.
Ah but all this pushing for "realism" then leads to this: these intelligent mobs realize that following you is fruitless, then what? They run back home at increased speed and heal to full/rapidly regenerate whle they do so? Or do you just follow them back plinking away with no challenge because now they just hope they will make it home...while snared.
Haha that's not exactly what I hand in mind. I don't think that would be most mob's natural reaction because that wouldn't be intelligent either obviously. I was thinking more like them maybe trying to use different ranged abilities to damage you and/or changing their pathing toward you rather than just always taking the shortest path to you distance-wise. I'll hafta think about that more though....
Spart said:Unleashed with yelling for help and running if near dead to get help and create a train if uncontrolled. This makes skills like snare, root, mezz, stun, etc. real and valued.
Nothing like almost clearing a room and the mob is mortaly wounded .... runs into the next room and yells for help gaining a heal from the npc cleric and agroing the entire next room on ur group. =)
I like the idea of calling for help. I was always left scratching my head when I'd pull a single bandit away from it's camp and I could see the other bandits just standing there. The bandit would have to be insane to not alert the others at some point. That could get out of hand quickly. Which begs the question: what about a Silence ability that prevents them from calling for help or even casting incantations?
Like others here, I feel this mechanic should be more complex than leashed or unleashed. I would like to see a few class or race specific abilities that would allow for escape without hitting a zone line. think there needs to be some compromise here because breaking agro by zoning is just as impractical as losing a mob by many other means. However, in my opinion, heavy armor large classes should have a much more difficult roll on evading or escaping a mob or lack any abilities assisting with this (although fear or intimidation may always be an option!)
From another perspective, if a guard is stationed somewhere they won't be apt to abandon their post willy-nilly because of an intruder. In my eyes, that stationed guard might give a short chase, but would more likely sound an alarm or alert others to the presence of an unwanted guest. This might take the form of a debuff, cool down, or heightened awareness of surrounding mobs. I think mechanics like these would create a dynamic dungeon and would eliminate the absolute need to train to IZ any time something went wrong.
Seb
I just had a thought... we know that the iconic train of the orc camp in the first stream was caused because Brad aggro'd the sole bellringer/hornblower in that camp. Because that one mob was attacked, it automatically aggro'd everyone else in range. In fact, I think it was Zippyzee (the AI dev) that said that "Alarmist" is actually one of the mob behavior dispositions in Pantheon. So it may be fairly common that there are particular types of mobs that have a tendency to alert the rest of their friends in that area when they are attacked or detect an enemy. This makes for some pretty interesting tactics/awareness required to avoid that.
Bazgrim said:I just had a thought... we know that the iconic train of the orc camp in the first stream was caused because Brad aggro'd the sole bellringer/hornblower in that camp. Because that one mob was attacked, it automatically aggro'd everyone else in range. In fact, I think it was Zippyzee (the AI dev) that said that "Alarmist" is actually one of the mob behavior dispositions in Pantheon. So it may be fairly common that there are particular types of mobs that have a tendency to alert the rest of their friends in that area when they are attacked or detect an enemy. This makes for some pretty interesting tactics/awareness required to avoid that.
We're in good hands.
Bazgrim said:HemlockReaper said:Unleashed to a point, if Ive managed to out run the mob to the point it shouldn't be able to see me anymore, then having it show up 15 min later when Ive made camp feeling Ive escaped danger is absurd.
I’m fine with the mob chasing me relentlessly as along as it has a line of sight. Please no all seeing eye crap.
That's a good point too. You should be able to outrun a mob a even "shake them off" by making a lot of twists and turns in a more labyrinthine zone. If they can't see you, there's no reason they'd still be able to know where you are and follow you. Unless it's some sort of very magical seer that has the ability to sense your presence. Edit: or maybe a mob that can smell or hear you?
Smell or hear you..and get their friends to join the chase, used to happen in Skyfire quite a bit...someone would forget to kill one of the already injured mobs, it would wander away..few minutes later the person that damaged the mob would have a train on their heads. I would sit up the side of one of the mountains and watch. Used to try and warn them, but if they didn't listen, it was their funeral. :P
Niien said:So this is my personal opinion... I love unleashed mobs... however...
I wouldn't mind a system that is a bit more complex. Meaning that there is leashing depending on certain factors. Some of these factors would be type of npcs, speed of npcs, reason for chasing you.
For instance, if you run into a pack of rabid wolves... they would probably be able to run much faster than you and running wouldn't do you any good, along side the fact that they are pretty hungry wolves and won't give up the chase that easily when their survival is on the line.
Another example would be a merchant that you hit for a small amount of damage, maybe by mistake or just testing him. He might not be that upset with you and would chase you off though wouldn't chase you across an entire zone leaving his valuable wares unattended.
If a creative system can't be made easily... then unleashed lol...
I completely agree with this. I love no leash but if all mobs have no leash it opens up option to cheat content. Someone very fast can run through agroing all the mobs prior to the boss and allow the group to run in directly skipping all Content. However as I said I prefer not leash as it was mentioned above that it makes you really think before you pull a target. So hopefully they do somthing along the lines of the above quote and go with somthing in between leash and no leash
I vote for Unleashed too.
Leashed mobs trivialized the whole exploration/adventure experience. Who cares if you don't pay attention to your surroundings, oh you just aggrod the Might Dragon of Terminus? No big deals, two steps and it will go back to its mighty cave. That's just uninteresting and unexciting to me. Remove NPC leash and you get yourself a world that forces you to respect it and pay attention to it.
Also, TRAIN TO ZONE creates (and destroys) community!
Certain mobs should be able to smell you and thus keep track of your path even if you are able to get out of their sight. Maybe you could break that by crossing a river.
Though I would only choose mobs which do have those abilities in real life aswell like snakes or lizards.
I think this would add a good bit to realism. (sorry if this was said already didnt read the whole thread)
I think mobs being unleashed would add more immersion and more gameplay possibilities.
A mob returning to his standing point always reminds the player he's playing a video game, like "all right, the mob is working as intended, same as the other mobs"
I agree though that some npcs or mobs should have some reasons to stay near a specific point (family to defend, treasure to keep, etc.) But that should be the exception and not the rule.
I would also add something to this : some skills to lose aggro, get aggro, or switch aggro to another target would make the game much better. Tactics would be made like "i'll aggro this strong mob at entrance, i'll run the whole map with him behind me, and you go forward in there meanwhile to grab the scroll for me"
I also think some cool concepts could be thought of in this regard. Taking the risk of repeating myself from another thread, one should consider noisemaker gadgets (ie rogue crafted item), to make mobs move to a specific location, enabling tactics, or even a mobile decoy, going in a straight line and getting aggro all the way, and being pursued in a long distance by dumb mobs. Same idea with illusion spells getting aggro. Or even a pet mechanic, like : "Dingo my dear, get aggro from target mob then run the opposite". All these tactics would be cool to implement, but they would be bland with leashed mobs. If mobs were leashed, it would only work by running in a circle, with the risk of aggro switch with the others around.
Cheers
Unleashed is my vote. It adds some flavor to the game. Also, if you can just outrun any monster or npc that is following you with intent to kill how challenging is that going to be?
The idea that you might have a train on your hands if things go south in a group means you are thinking more carefully and teamwork is a thing that needs to exist.
On the flip side, I have seen some ugly trolls who have exploited trains and used them to grief players and there is nothing more frustrating than being killed by some not so nice player because he happens to want the camp you're at, or for instance doesn't like someone in your group.
This is just an idea but maybe the train should stay focused on the player who originally gained agrro'd it so that people can't intentionally train others with 20 or so mobs. Maybe it's not the best answer, but I invite people to think of other ways that might make unleashed mobs work for everyone.