I feel strongly opposed to leashed mobs.
Edit: Except for raid bosses -- those I think should leash to avoid exploit kills and griefing.
Unleashed is great, except it permits training. It should also be noted that in EQ1 today, you can leash/reset mobs.. You just have to run really far and really fast.
As it's been demonstrated to be a design goal for Pantheon (in videos and in chats, and podcasts) that training will be in the game, up to this date, then it doesn't really matter what we say, they're going to ensure training is in Pantheon.
But, presuming they take off the insanity shoes for a second and want to make the game attractive, fun and challenging, I would say something like the following would be better..
Theorycrafting: Every creature that is chasing you slows your run speed by somewhere between 15 and 20%. That means you could train something like 3 to 4 mobs and still run. Otherwise, you're walking and getting auto-crit & auto-stunned from behind. Also, your run speed buffs (like Selo's and SoW) are suspended if you're being chased. This means stay on the road if you want to travel fast, and/or use invis/stealth.
If you Feign Death, every mobs hits you at least once to ensure you're "really dead" and those hits cannot miss, and auto crit. (you're lying prone/helpless, after all)
You could tune the percentage of movement debuff to be based on the level disparity between you and the mob chasing you, such that the higher the mob versus you, the greater the percentage, and the higher you are versus the mob, the less the percentage. However, such a system would permit high levels to train low levels EASIER, so this is likely a very bad idea.
Leashing everything is not a silver bullet. If you do that, people will train through dungeons just to bypass content, if leash lengths are short enough.
Personally, I'm a fan of relatively short leashes for outdoor zones that are meant for travel, or starting areas. As areas become more dangerous as you move farther from civilization, longer leash lengths make sense. No leash of any kind? Not a fan. I've seen enough of Gorenaire outside Karnor's Castle with Venril Sathir on the inside of Karnor's Castle to last me a lifetime.
Definately no leashing at all. At the same time things chasing you forever isn't always realistic. The AI should fit the monster. Undead would never tire and have no intelligence. They would chase you through hell and back. Goblins are lazy and cowardly. They would stop chasing you quite quickly unless there were a lot of them chasing you, then they might continue to chase you longer. Most intelligent species would stop chasing if they lost line of sight long enough. They wouldn't have some magic GPS in their head telling them where you went.
Distance from their spawn should have little to no impact. It should be more about mob type and LoS.
kellindil said:Definately no leashing at all. At the same time things chasing you forever isn't always realistic. The AI should fit the monster. Undead would never tire and have no intelligence. They would chase you through hell and back. Goblins are lazy and cowardly. They would stop chasing you quite quickly unless there were a lot of them chasing you, then they might continue to chase you longer. Most intelligent species would stop chasing if they lost line of sight long enough. They wouldn't have some magic GPS in their head telling them where you went.
Distance from their spawn should have little to no impact. It should be more about mob type and LoS.
+1 agreed.
There has to be some form of leashing, it's just a matter of how long and for what reasons.
Otherwise you have people that could just be traveling through, get agro, and they run a mob 6,7, or 8 regions/zones away, possibly without barely realizing they have agro.
At some point, all mobs, except undead, would want to give up the chase.
A human guard won't chase you through troll territory, or too far from the safety of his guard post. An animal will only chase you until you have left his territory or are far away enugh from their young to no longer be a danger. etc
No Leashing please, it makes people lazy and skip content because they know they can just run by it without consequence if there is a gap in spawns at some point in the dungeon or zone. I can acknowledge there is a huge griefing element to not having leashing, but I think the cons of leashing outweigh the pros.
Hard zonelines let you build a train worthy of Mordor, but lose agro once you evac, fade or zone out (OR **GASP** do the right thing and just die b/c of your mistake). Some of the best memories (and worst) are built around some knucklehead training everything to a zone line or other bad spot.
When I say "leashing" I am referring to only when mobs are aggroed. I don't want an automatic chain aggro that applies to a group of mobs where ALL will come no matter what. I like situations you can manipulate by skill, positioning, pathing etc...
As far as distance they turn off aggro, I am open to specific distance that makes sense.
Fulton said:There has to be some form of leashing, it's just a matter of how long and for what reasons.
Otherwise you have people that could just be traveling through, get agro, and they run a mob 6,7, or 8 regions/zones away, possibly without barely realizing they have agro.
At some point, all mobs, except undead, would want to give up the chase.
A human guard won't chase you through troll territory, or too far from the safety of his guard post. An animal will only chase you until you have left his territory or are far away enugh from their young to no longer be a danger. etc
I don't think anyone's suggesting that mobs should be able to zone. Dying and/or zoning should break aggro regardless. Probably the biggest issue is if there is a big bad boss mob in the same zone as a town or village. Very possible considering how big they're making the zones. Would it be possible for a boss to just kill the guards and terrorize the village endlessly?
There has already been a lengthy conversation about this is another thread a while ago. I'm gonna try to dig it up because I had a long and detailed answer to these issues....
Found it. Here's my suggestions on leashing:
Trains are fundamental to having pseudo-intelligent mobs. It's natural behavior. If mobs behave more stupidly than we expect, we won't respect them and therefore won't feel danger and therefore immersion will be broken. However, as usual, the best answer is somewhere between the two extremes (no trains or always trains). Therefore, I'd still like to see some exceptions to trains, where applicable. From shortest leashes to longest:
1. Mobs that lack endurance. These would probably be creatures that are obviously young or sickly. They may chase you a short distance until they get tired, at which point they realize they will never catch up to you so they pretty much just give up and turn around and walk back.
2. Mobs that are territorial. That is, they are more concerned about protecting a particular area than actually killing you. (Maybe Black Dagger Keep guards?) If you get too close, they'll attack. If you run, they'll chase you only as far as they need to in order to get you away from whatever it is they're protecting. But at some point it's more important to them that they turn around and return to protecting their area than actually doing whatever it takes to kill you. Smart guards would not fall for such simple distractions. Perhaps the guards have considered that while they are chasing after one person, that person's accomplice may be sneaking in behind while the area is left unprotected! Therefore, the guards won't stray too far.
3. Mobs that fear certain parts of their own environment. For example, let's say you're fighting a camp of orcs in a hilly zone. You get outnumbered and need to run for your life. Orcs are pretty savage creatures as well as good runners so they're gonna chase you for quite a while in hopes of killing you. But you happen to know that there is a particular eerie forest not far to the east that the orcs never dare enter because it is shrouded in mystery. Legends have been passed down through generations of orcs about how cursed that forest is and how no one has ever made it out alive. So they'll chase you right up the edge of that forest, but at that point, they might as well just assume that you're gonna die in the forest anyway so it's not worth risking their own lives to see it through themselves. Mind you, the forest isn't even its own separate zone line. It may just be a small portion of a larger zone. Therefore, you don't need to run all the way to the zone wall. You just need to know what parts of the zone certain mobs aren't willing to go.
***But there should always be some relentless, bloodthirsty mobs who have tunnel vision and will stop at nothing to see you dead.***
Here's an example: let's say I'm walking down the road and this huge mean-looking Rotweiler in the next yard over that is foaming at the mouth and barking aggressively and sprinting toward me. But I also notice that it's got a bulky metal chain attached to its collar and the chain is secured to a sturdy pole. I might panic for a brief moment and take a few steps back, but it'll run full speed into the end of its lead and yelp as it gets yanked back by its neck. I can just laugh at the dog all I want cause I know it can't touch me. This massive beast was made completely powerless just because I took a few steps back. That big bad dog all of a sudden looks pretty pathetic. I can walk that path every day without a worry as long as I just stay on the road. Easy. Now imagine the same exact scenario, except there's no chain. Now THAT'S exciting! That would be an unforgettable chase and you'd get quite the workout. I instantly have more fear and respect for the animal.
You can see the rest of the discussion here: http://pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/3129/why-training-and-other-quot-bad-things-quot-are-good-for-the-g/view/page/1
No leashing..."Train to zone" "Get offa da tracks!" Be aware of your surroundings or don't and suffer the consequences. :P I have no problem with that. :) I have been chased a few times by that huge dragon in Skyfire zone, Eq1. Sometimes I just made it to zone out..with a few hps left, sometimes I didn't. Major adrenalin rush on the other side when you succeed. lol
Bazgrim said:Fulton said:There has to be some form of leashing, it's just a matter of how long and for what reasons.
Otherwise you have people that could just be traveling through, get agro, and they run a mob 6,7, or 8 regions/zones away, possibly without barely realizing they have agro.
At some point, all mobs, except undead, would want to give up the chase.
A human guard won't chase you through troll territory, or too far from the safety of his guard post. An animal will only chase you until you have left his territory or are far away enugh from their young to no longer be a danger. etc
I don't think anyone's suggesting that mobs should be able to zone. Dying and/or zoning should break aggro regardless. Probably the biggest issue is if there is a big bad boss mob in the same zone as a town or village. Very possible considering how big they're making the zones. Would it be possible for a boss to just kill the guards and terrorize the village endlessly?
There has already been a lengthy conversation about this is another thread a while ago. I'm gonna try to dig it up because I had a long and detailed answer to these issues....
Agreed, I wasn't meaning mobs would zone, but I think Pantheon will have much larger "zones" than we are accustomed to, and most likely be broken up into smaller regions with no "zoning". That is what I was referring too. And I was stating just that, call it zoning, call it leashing, call it getting tired. At some point mobs should give up chasing you, based on something. In EQ1 it was a zone line, in WoW, it was distance, I played a game, dont recall what it was, where mobs chased you forever as long as the distance between you and them was less than a specific amount.
It's all some form of agro leashing.
Now the other subject broght up was mobs agroing together, which I always referred to as linked mobs, not leashed mobs.
Wandidar said:I hate leashes... I understand them in a game without zoning - but I hate them. Without leashing - getting too much agro is a moment of fear. You feel like you are running for your life... and you ARE!
With leashes - you feel annoyed that you have to run away from a mob... again...
There's no fear - fear is knowing that zone line is safety. There is just annoyance... "Bah - I have to run again."
Having said that - I think a cool idea would be to use a leashing sort of mechanism to have some mobs - in effect - pull you. So maybe you want to pull a mob out of a camp, and it might come a little way, but then it stops... as you come back toward it, it backs a little farter into it's camp, etc...
That sort of thing might be fun.
Agree 100%
leashed mobs absolutely make sense.
a mob that is supposed to guard the front gate of a fortress shouldnt chase you very far, or it would be abandoning its post. even a predatory animal wont chase forever, it will at some point decide you arent worth the trouble.
some mobs should have no leash, though. a demon summoned to kill you, an mindless undead in search of brainssss, the soldiers that the guard calls to hunt you down,etc.
there is no reason why there has to be a hard and fast rule for aggro/leashing for every mob. getting to /shout 'train to zone' isnt a good enough reason, either.
werzul said:there is no reason why there has to be a hard and fast rule for aggro/leashing for every mob. getting to /shout 'train to zone' isnt a good enough reason, either.
Generally the idea is to make it so you can't skip past mobs within a zone to get to a specific spot without being very sneaky/careful.
If you had to have leashing of some sort beyond just zone then perhaps it could be reputation based. Kill enough orcs and they won't ever stop chasing you, gate guard or not.
werzul said:leashed mobs absolutely make sense.
a mob that is supposed to guard the front gate of a fortress shouldnt chase you very far, or it would be abandoning its post. even a predatory animal wont chase forever, it will at some point decide you arent worth the trouble.
some mobs should have no leash, though. a demon summoned to kill you, an mindless undead in search of brainssss, the soldiers that the guard calls to hunt you down,etc.
there is no reason why there has to be a hard and fast rule for aggro/leashing for every mob. getting to /shout 'train to zone' isnt a good enough reason, either.
I agree for the most part, thus my description of situational leashes above. I think actually the majority of mobs should be unleashed. But of course where appropriate, it would definitely make the world more logical and interesting to have some mobs on leashes.
Unleashed to a point, if Ive managed to out run the mob to the point it shouldn't be able to see me anymore, then having it show up 15 min later when Ive made camp feeling Ive escaped danger is absurd.
I’m fine with the mob chasing me relentlessly as along as it has a line of sight. Please no all seeing eye crap.
HemlockReaper said:Unleashed to a point, if Ive managed to out run the mob to the point it shouldn't be able to see me anymore, then having it show up 15 min later when Ive made camp feeling Ive escaped danger is absurd.
I’m fine with the mob chasing me relentlessly as along as it has a line of sight. Please no all seeing eye crap.
That's a good point too. You should be able to outrun a mob a even "shake them off" by making a lot of twists and turns in a more labyrinthine zone. If they can't see you, there's no reason they'd still be able to know where you are and follow you. Unless it's some sort of very magical seer that has the ability to sense your presence. Edit: or maybe a mob that can smell or hear you?
To force zone design decisions to adhere to "Can the players break line of sight from xyz to zyx" is absolute insanity for a game with a AAA budget, to force those zone design decisions on a game with the small budget like Pantheon is just outside reality.
Imagine if they had to consider mobs requiring Line of Sight for continued aggro in some of your favorite dungeons in Everquest, what Sebilis would have looked like, what Unrest would have looked like... they would have made them flat zones with no structure just an open field...
Rallyd said:To force zone design decisions to adhere to "Can the players break line of sight from xyz to zyx" is absolute insanity for a game with a AAA budget, to force those zone design decisions on a game with the small budget like Pantheon is just outside reality.
Imagine if they had to consider mobs requiring Line of Sight for continued aggro in some of your favorite dungeons in Everquest, what Sebilis would have looked like, what Unrest would have looked like... they would have made them flat zones with no structure just an open field...
I think your vastly underestimating this teams abilities. I know at least some have close to or more than 20 years experience making games. I think they can figure out how to do a line of sight check without calling tech support.
Can someone correct me if I'm wrong, but in early EQ (I don't know if mechanics have changed since then, my guess would be 'yes') but anyway, in early EQ if you ran far enough away from a mob, it would stop chasing you and go back to it's spawn points/scripted wander path. However, if you didn't drop aggro (FD, mem blur, etc) you were still on that mob's hate list, and if you got close enough (definitely farther than standard aggro range) it would come running after you, usually with any friends that were close by.
Even at 15+ years old, this mechanic seems the most realistice. E.g. you run, the mob chases you until it figures that it can't catch you. But if you come close enough, it will still remember who you are and come after you again (this is different that faction/KOS/ standard aggro range)
I specifically remember this in Karnor's Castle. I would run to the zone line, but NOT zone right away. I'd hit my train macro, and see if the mobs were still following me across the bridge. A lot of times they stopped. Since zoning took soooo long on my PC back then with 56k that I tried to avoid zoning if I could. Plus the risk of losing all your buffs if you zoned with low health. Anyway I digress. As I slowly made my way back to the camp, mobs which were normally far enough away that they wouldn't aggro came at me. If I was along I would have to run back to the zone all over again and actually zone to clear aggro. Or if I was with a group we'd just clear stuff out. But yeah... that's how I remember things working and honestly even thoday that seems the most realistic and reasonable mechanic.
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/2491/leashing-did-we-have-it-already
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/3748/leashing-or-deal-with-it
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/3509/mobs
A few other links to help you guys :)