*shrug*
I'm ok with some classes being able to solo and some not - even if it means some can solo stuff that makes others jealous / envious. I'm primarily interested in the group game being right.
If the game is such that people "just don't get along" - then something larger is wrong in the game... it would then be a group centric game that fails at driving groups (and people) together. For sure not everyone will get along... nothing is that utopian - but everyone should be able to find a community within the larger community.
It probably does mean that people might (in some cases) consider their class carefully. If you think you will spend a ton of time solo, but play a class that doesn't solo well - you may need to pick another class.
Who knows - things are still a long way off. But for sure, I don't think they want to (or should) change course with heading the game toward group focus. Trying to balance for solo and group brings the same fundamental problems as trying to balance for PvP and PvE... when you try to balance your classes to two different types of play, you end up with watered down, bland classes.
Fingurs said:
Sad comment/view on solo'ing at 53 minutes. Although before I say anything, I understand we are a long long way from playing/releasing - but this absolutely drives me insane as a Rogue whos played McQuaid games.
At the 52 - 53 minute mark he says 'straight up', that some classes will just be better at solo'ing then others. His focus will be whether or not they are good for a group. He doesn't want people not getting picked up for a group, because they don't have anything to offer. Which of course, makes perfect sense! Who can't remember the Magician of EQ1? Mana Rod or GTFO.
However - this means the possibility of the EQ1 Wizard / Druid of course is likely. While I am not sure how to solve this problem, I would feel a bit more comfortable if that was a priority. Just like Joppa read from a forum user (sorry I forget the name), if given the choice, people will always solo. So that means if word gets out that a random_class_01's abilities allow you to solo mob17_02, and you as random_class_02 die in 8 seconds after engaging, you can guess what everyone's first alt will be.
What I am getting at is while we hope everyone has Utopian attitude, when your game grows (and growth is wanted here), people are simply not gonna get a long, and would rather do stuff on their own for benefit, or in MOST cases, convenience. Getting in a group is fun, but its stressful if you have like - kids, wife, etc...
In closing I would say if you want to focus on group play, I think thats great, but please at least say outloud that if a certain class can solo group content that NO ONE ELSE in the game regardless of gear can solo, you will at least patch it to make it so others can, or that 1 class cant.
Vanguard was a HORRIBLE example of this with their Sorceror being able to fight 30 - 50 mobs at once that are group level.
Thank you, and yes I know this was a bit of a rant.
As a fellow Rogue, I feel your pain but that is something I have come to expect, if we are to suffer soloing, we should gain in other area's to balance things out, so I look at it as a bonus, plus we are supposed to be high end damage dealers, kind of the glass canons of the lightfighters so with that come high burst and sustained Dps with aggro management and the ability to remove ourselves from combat.
We may only be able to kill 1 mob per another classes 3-4 mobs but we kill 3 times as fast as them and then need to recover, that is just the nature of the beast. I know it can be frustrating but I kind of like it that way, it is also a greater achievement to run around as a max level player knowing you put in the hard yards (more so than other classes) and now get to reap the Dps rewards and enjoy an above average Dpsing class that groups will always be in need of us over say the more solo friendly classes.
As an example for another melee class, Monks will get evasion/pull and a slight off tank ability if we stick with the EQ/VG theme and have more survivability but will then have less pure Dps output than us, so it does balance out among all classes. If we hit harder we die faster and so then there is the need for aggro management etc.
There is give and take in all area's mate but I wouldn't worry too much about a little down time, that just helps promote player interaction and the need for a duo buddy, hit me up in game anytime mate and we can duo our Rogues and show them who is boss ;)
@Fingurs
I am in complete agreement with Kilsin here. It is not so much that all classes should be balanced at soloing, but rather, a balance should be constructed around a simple idea - what does that non-soloing class bring to a group that makes me want to add them (and hopefully they can add more to a group than a potential soloer)? If Pantheon is based around grouping, then the mechanics of the classes should be developed that way as well - either to have a major role or add utility to the group. Obviously, not every class is going to have a major role, some some may stray farther from the vision and have an ability to solo; however, I would not want the game designed around everyone able to solo equally, but rather, that the characters be tuned for grouping. If some characters ultimately are better soloers when the class is designed for grouping, then so be it. I would much rather it be an effect or after thought of the design than the goal of it.
I get your point that if a class can't solo, then it should be rewarded alternatively - and I would agree there. However, I would have to brainstorm some non-gamebreaking ideas and I can't think of any that would equal presently.
Raidan said:I get your point that if a class can't solo, then it should be rewarded alternatively - and I would agree there. However, I would have to brainstorm some non-gamebreaking ideas and I can't think of any that would equal presently.
Yeah I get it, and to be fair to the VR team, lets wait and see the alpha/beta before saying its an issue.
I am just so scarred from falling in love with classes, that even when top 5 equipped are highly reliant on groups to get what most other classes can achieve on their own. Thus always feel like you have to try that much harder.
I don't WANT to play two classes in the game - but what I've basically decided is that I'm going to start out on the class that I really want to play (whatever that turns out to be *cough*rangerhopefully*cough*) - but if that class is absolutely incapable of soloing (which is different than solo's with very high difficulty by the way) then I will play an alt that can solo - that I enjoy playing.
Maybe not ideal - but it then gives me something to do in game on nights where I just don't have time to group - or just don't want to that night.
It's very difficult to build classes around mostly defined roles, while simultaneously ensuring non can solo or want to solo. I believe building the gameplay so that the game makes you crave to be in a group is a better path to success than trying to butcher classes in hopes of micromanaging what players do.
Thought the podcast finished on a strong note. Healthy discussion about power leveling, and Brad bringing back up the idea of Vanguard continents, and out leveling interesting areas in other continents. I am very happy he brought that up because I have the following feedback:
-Great Idea, definitely made me wish I did certain things in other continents.
-Regret was quickly found with frustration, as some items were way more useful then others. (My loot is cooler then yours), and many of those people got it by default (it was the nearest dungeon to their starting city). People felt like they were punished for picking a certain race. Item/reward balance is key.
-I never went back to experience the content. My loss, however my motivations were to be able to raid - and after I was done raiding, I couldn't get anyone else to want to do it as a group. Why? Reward. This is a very difficult task, but if addressed properly could have groundbreaking results. How do you get someone who has 'beaten the game' to want to go back and start over per say. Do you just say 'make another character, and start over'. Or - Do you use zone dynamics and have them experience it that way?
Think Kithicor Forrest. Sure - during the day it was low level, and you could level up there, fantastic. Come night, it was 30 - 35+ and you had to get the heck out of dodge. So instead of day/night - how about 1 or 2 days out of the week it (said content in question to go back and re-do) becomes max or near max level with alternate quests/mobs. That way the person who never went through that landscape now has a great excuse to go back. In addition, for the enthusiast who wants to experience it from the beginning, that option is available as well.
Great podcast - would love to hear more from the lead developer in terms of:
-What is your biggest challenge when programming the needs/wants/requests of players?
-What are you surprised people dont ask more of, and is actually fairly trivial for you to build?
-What is the ideal size of your team in building a game like Pantheon, if you had a magic wand of $?
Thanks guys.
EDIT: Formatting...
Filzin said:Oh, and Fingurs, USC sucks!!!!
That is all.
Back on topic, lol....... (^^,)
Edit: spelling