First let me say well done. I have listen to the first 30 minutes of it 3 times.
First off you had it right the first time you tried. Chaam rymes with spam or pam.
@ Aradune
I love how your trying to keep everything old school with a new school twist. I really think $15 a month is to little. I want to see the game thrive and content added. $15 a month I am not sure will do that for the game.
I also think the first 5 - 10 levels for free is an awesome idea and should be great to get people interested. However I hope the free download is just for that trial period. Even if you only charge $39 or $49 for a copy its money in the bank to bring the game more content. More content = longer shelf life.
I hope I misunderstood this part somehow or it was just a what if type thing.
I think after the way you spoke of F2P and P2W. There is a new deity in my line of things to worship. I hate F2P/P2W.
@ Joppa
We so deeply appreciate your efforts as a whole, you have no idea. Not to take away from the rest of the team at all. I like would like to express thanks to all of you.
The way your handling community involvement now is like no other and is already making history that other MMO's will have to follow.
Stay tuned I will keep you posted on the second third of the podcast.
I agree 100%.
I intend to start & discuss Pantheons business model thread sometime in the future, when we have more details, etc. Because of what I am hearing in the MMO industry. I had echoed something similar in another thread a day ago. But it bears repeating here I think.
So lets be frank, if i could afford a $15/month back in 1999... when I was 29... then I can certainly afford Initial Box Sale + $25/month + Expansion Packs... now/today.
As we mature, so should our games, and our niche.
College guys crashing at my pad, while me and a few friends were two-boxing EQ. These guys are like "WTF are you guys doing/going on...?"
My friend replied.. "EverCrack"..
They sat around until morning watching and getting more enthralled into EQ as the night progressed. After a 9h bender, we all rustle up to crash (it was morning) and One of the dudes said/asked.. "How much does that game cost..?
I said.. "about $45 bucks for the game & $150/year subscription to play"....
He replied.. "Holy crap that is cheap... thats less than a bag of weed." <--- think on that for a long time.
I do not like the idea of a free trial, (it ruins the player community), but I think there should be a price involved, an INVESTMENT into trying Pantheon. How many games in the past did we use to buy for $49 that we didn't like and toss it 1 month later. How many Console games do you buy and months later, no longer play..? It is no big deal and if someone spends (invests) and doesn't like... Visionary Realms loses nothing.
MMORPG Box sales are a big initial upfront investment, that puts like-minded people together within a game. Free doesn't do any of that... it creates nothing for long term investment. If someone is intrigued enough, they will buy.
80,000 box sales @ $45 = $3.6m
I also think a better way to promote Pantheon and it's subscription base, is offer promotions to current players to hand out to friends and family as an "invite". If those people choose to play after the "invite period", their digital download is 50% off. That means friends of players, get more of their like-minded friends into the game. EVE steam rolled this way, by word of mouth and a slow start. Friend of friend accelerates this process.
There are many ways to grow the community and membership here. But the best way is keeping their heads to the grindstone and focused development, which they are doing. Obviously, at this point in development, shorthand business model discussions like this are moot, but still worth noting.
edit: spelling
Anything more then $15 a month is suicide. People are already getting use to free games so making it more expensive then past MMO subs is just going to limit the number of people that are willing to risk a sub. Its better to have 100,000 at $15 then 60,000 at $20.
I don't see how you could charge for a digital download if the first few levels are free. Pay $30 for a trial?
I think most community members are out of their league when it comes to mmo businesses even if their real job is somewhat similar.
Its fairly common to pay for download + x month(s) playtime. Why not have the same for download + x levels?
I agree with Hieromonks post above, and would prefer to not have a free trial as well. But of course these are decisions that the team/publisher will have to make in the end.
Hieromonk said:
....snip...I intend to start & discuss Pantheons business model thread sometime in the future, when we have more details, etc. Because of what I am hearing in the MMO industry. I had echoed something similar in another thread a day ago. But it bears repeating here I think.
...snip...
That would be a good thread Hieromonk! gogo!
Hieromonk said:
He replied.. "Holy crap that is cheap... thats less than a bag of weed." <--- think on that for a long time.
so what if its less than a bag of weed? that is like looking at a cup of coffee and saying, "Man that is cheaper than a Doughnut!"
both are must have items!
I think the point of the bag of weed commentary is something I say to my wife all the time. I play a lot on laptops. Laptops are convenient for me because I like being mobile around the house and because I travel for work in spurts. Nothing for 6 months, constantly for 3 months, etc...
So every few years I buy a new laptop... and when my wife raises her eyebrows at me - I mostly just say "Look, it's for my hobby. I don't go out drinking all the time and things like that - I only spend on this. In the long run, it's a much cheaper form of entertainment."
And that's the point.
As to monthly fees. Paying $15 a month or $20 a month doesn't really matter to me - but I think it does matter to some people who are on very tight budgets - and to others for the reason mentioned above (an MMO suddenly being $20 a month). As to the second one, I do believe EQ was $9.99 a month when I first started playing it - or maybe I got it down that much by subscribing for multiple months, I don't recall.
Interesting thought on making sure people have at least some skin in the game when they try it out. I don't think any day one idiots would scare anyone on these forums away, because I think we would all just wait them out and keep playing - knowing that idiots ultimately won't last in a community oriented game (or that, at the least, they would modify their behavior out of necessity). But that doesn't mean that a lot of prospective members might not get turned away by such things.
Maybe there is an answer in not having your first levels be free - but in having them pay their first month's fee - which allows them to play X levels without a subscription to the game and gets applied as their first month if they do subscribe. SO:
1) You pay $15 when you DL the game. The only thing this gets you for sure is the first X levels of game play.
2) If you subscribe (buy the game), that money gets applied to your first month. As in you get a full month (not from when you first paid the $15) this gives you a little perk. You would invest $15 bucks to try it out - and then if you like it, the time you took to try it out does not count against your first month of time.
3) If you never subscribe, you essentially paid $15 to try.
Every P2P MMO that I have ever played comes with the first 30 days free. You buy the game, subscribe but if you cancel within the first 30 days you dont get charged...been that way since I first loaded up EQ1 way back when it was 9.99 a month. Keep it like this, just have it so you dont have to "subscribe" until after the first thirty days...to be honest I personally am against a free to play trial. Its just to open to abuse by gold seller spammers.
I am going to come at this from a different view. I do not want a free trial but I have no say in that matter, I will leave that up to the Team/Publisher because they will have a much better idea than I do what the game needs. I want to put some real world perspective on the cost of the game. I make my living driving a car that I own that I have to buy gas for to do my delivery route. If the game costs $25/month that is less gas I will be able to buy to put in my car to earn money so I can then pay to play PRotF. If I have to choose between spending more on a game or spending more on providing for my family, which takes priority? Yes I have been in this job for 8 years now and I am still a substitute, and no I do not teach. It will take me at least another 2 years before I will probably get that career position at which point I will have some money to devote to these indulges.
Another thing that people need to take into consideration is not what it is at launch but what it will be like 2 years after launch. Would most people that play MMORPGs or even video games be able to afford the $25/month subscription cost? By that time most people will have meet and married or even had kids and that changes the economic focus of responsible, sensible, and MATURE people. While everyone has their own ideas of what MATURE means to them, we have yet to hear what Mature means to the Development team. Until they give us a better idea of what those Game tenets and Features actually MEAN we will have no idea what business plan will work for this game and team.
Sogo - I do agree that (as I said before) some folks are on tight budgets... but don't assume that everyone is at the front end of their lives either - or that married folks with kids don't play.
I'm now mid 40's. I played EQ while my kids were growing up. In the end, doing something like that is both more cost effective than other types of entertainment for newly married folks with young kids - AND - it's entertainment at home!
$15 or even $20 a month is cheaper than going to a movie, out to dinner, out for drinks, to the amusement park for a day, golfing, etc...
20 bucks a month for 24 hour a day 365 days a year entertainment is the best value you can get.
Not only is it dirt cheap but you dont have to worry about finding a baby sitter so you are saving another small fortune right there
I don't think it's as much to the general population can't afford $15 dollars per month, or $20 per month, or $30 per month (unless they're on a extremely tight fixed budget), it's rather, a matter of principle, the idea that "I am not going to pay that much for a game."
You can make the argument that people need to look at it as a form of entertaiment rather than a game, but many won't buy it. $180 a year, $240 a year, $360 a year, etc + a $39.99 or $49.99 original box/download is an expensive game. Yes, you may convince some of the hardcore EQ/VG crowd to look at it as cheap entertaiment, but this game will need more than just than only that crowd to be initially successful and to maintain that success (although that doesn't mean to change the tenets).
If you have the subscription too high, people won't buy/subscribe which will make profits lower. If subscription isn't high enough, Pantheon potentially may not be profitable. If your subscription is too high, the expectations will be sky high that the game will be perfect or content will be contually pumped out - and if that expectation is not met, you may lose that player anyway (thus losing that higher subscription). I think it would be a bad idea like Xonth said to charge more than 14.99 a month or at the very least 19.99 a month with 3 month, 6 month, and yearly packages etc. that drop down the rate to 18.99, 16.99 and 14.99 a month.
Pantheon will be one of the few, if not the only subscription model game available in 2017, and I don't think it would be a great idea to try to make it the most expensive subscription model game ever released when there are so many other free (although terrible) options at F2P.
Raidan said:
I don't think it's as much to the general population can't afford $15 dollars per month, or $20 per month, or $30 per month (unless they're on a extremely tight fixed budget), it's rather, a matter of principle, the idea that "I am not going to pay that much for a game."
You can make the argument that people need to look at it as a form of entertaiment rather than a game, but many won't buy it. $180 a year, $240 a year, $360 a year, etc + a $39.99 or $49.99 original box/download is an expensive game. Yes, you may convince some of the hardcore EQ/VG crowd to look at it as cheap entertaiment, but this game will need more than just than only that crowd to be initially successful and to maintain that success (although that doesn't mean to change the tenets).
If you have the subscription too high, people won't buy/subscribe which will make profits lower. If subscription isn't high enough, Pantheon potentially may not be profitable. If your subscription is too high, the expectations will be sky high that the game will be perfect or content will be contually pumped out - and if that expectation is not met, you may lose that player anyway (thus losing that higher subscription). I think it would be a bad idea like Xonth said to charge more than 14.99 a month or at the very least 19.99 a month with 3 month, 6 month, and yearly packages etc. that drop down the rate to 18.99, 16.99 and 14.99 a month.
Pantheon will be one of the few, if not the only subscription model game available in 2017, and I don't think it would be a great idea to try to make it the most expensive subscription model game ever released when there are so many other free (although terrible) options at F2P.
I agree that 15 bucks is just fine for a sub, anything more and yeah it would be counter productive. My whole question is how they are going to handle the f2p beginning levels...is it a free digital download then 15 bucks once you get to level X? Do you have to buy the box (30-50 bucks) then you dont have to sub until you hit level X? Wondering exactly how this will be handled. And yes I understand its way to early for any rock solid information on this subject from the team themselves. This is just me wondering and speculating.
Xonth said:
Anything more then $15 a month is suicide. People are already getting use to free games so making it more expensive then past MMO subs is just going to limit the number of people that are willing to risk a sub. Its better to have 100,000 at $15 then 60,000 at $20.
I don't see how you could charge for a digital download if the first few levels are free. Pay $30 for a trial?
I think most community members are out of their league when it comes to mmo businesses even if their real job is somewhat similar.
Xonth, I respect your opinion, I am just being frank & down to business.
So what if "people"... are use to getting free games.
Those "people" you speak of, are typically children & kids who require free games, because they do not have disposable income. Those " people" you speak of typically do not jump right into oldschool games such as Pantheon, but graduate to them, when they are ready to make the sacrifice.
Market 101:
Everyone sells cheap pizza, that they shove on a conveyer and 7 minutes later it done. Visionary Realms is selling hand-tossed, stone oven cooked Pizza, that takes 18 minutes to cook, with constant attention to the pizza while being baked.
You have McDonalds and you have Five Guys... don't tell me because McDonalds sells billion of burgers at $1.89, that another franchise can't open up and sell them at $5.59.. ..different product.
Hieromonk,
The problem with your argument is that there's many burger establishments that charge more than McDonalds, so it would not be abnormal to want better quality hamburgers and expect to pay more.
Conversely, there are not any other options in the gaming world with a $29.99+ subscription model. So, even if Pantheon is a hopefully better product, the market is completely different from the Hamburger buying world to the MMO world.
It's human nature to rebel against the norm, especially where money is concerned.
I can afford to pay 30 or 40 bucks a month to sub to a game, but I won't. Yes, it is 24 hour service (not counting downtimes and maintenance hours) but it's double, or more, than anything out there.
Raising prices on an MMO will force a lot of people, who can afford 40 bucks a month, to reevaluate their decision to pay a game a monthly sub. It is entertainment, but for 480 dollars a year people can afford many other forms of entertainment.
I don't discount for a second that you are right and that that would happen Bloodbeard - but - I think that after a year if people looked back, they would all too often realize that what they actually spent on entertainment ended up being more (and sometimes drastically more) than spending that $480.00.
Because another thing people are prone to is making moral stands and putting stakes in the ground... only realizing after the fact that they drove the stake (somehow) not through one foot, but both feet.
Hieromonk said:
One of the dudes said/asked.. "How much does that game cost..?
I said.. "about $45 bucks for the game & $150/year subscription to play"....
He replied.. "Holy crap that is cheap... thats less than a bag of weed." <--- think on that for a long time.
Heh, this is awesome. I remember this discussion going very differently in my circle. It was more like "HOLY SH*T! I would NEVER pay $200 to play that stupid F*@#ing game!" And then years of "you're stupid for paying that much to play that dumb game".
Sevens said:
...snip......to be honest I personally am against a free to play trial. Its just to open to abuse by gold seller spammers.
For this game they may need it. What I am seeing with gamers (and this is just my personal experience with many gamers that I talk with) Is that they are really darn tired of shelling out money for a game that they wind up not playing. Let's face it - Pantheon has some controversy so people are going to be shy to buy it. If they try it, they may like it and then sub. It is an honest approach as opposed to another game that just recently grabbed my cash and I do not play :( .
Some people are also sick of F2P - those are the type of gamers we want :) - gamers with commitment and money. The F2pers can go play their F2p games.
Sevens, I too am worried that the free trial will be easy access to gold spammers and trolls. What I suggest is that trial members do not have access to general/trade chat groups and they do not have access to mail or any broker like feature. These malignants have been very tenacious and may pay the sub to gain access, so a report system is mandatory.
Wandidar said:
Sogo - I do agree that (as I said before) some folks are on tight budgets... but don't assume that everyone is at the front end of their lives either - or that married folks with kids don't play.
I'm now mid 40's. I played EQ while my kids were growing up. In the end, doing something like that is both more cost effective than other types of entertainment for newly married folks with young kids - AND - it's entertainment at home!
$15 or even $20 a month is cheaper than going to a movie, out to dinner, out for drinks, to the amusement park for a day, golfing, etc...
Married with kids here too! Gaming is cheap, I am here if the kids need me, and my husband knows I am not out partying/spending all our money :)
I think it also needs to be said that F2P is the great gaming myth right now. They always get you for at least something to begin with. Want more than one bag slot? Pay. Want some bank space? Pay. Want this? Pay. Want that? Pay.
They do that first with stuff you don't actually need, but feel like you need - so you buy.
And then, of course, all the layered on stuff. OH - that thing looks cool... I'll buy it.
A friend of mine here at work was playing something that was F2P (I don't recall what) - he came in one day and said "I spent $350 on it." I said "Oh, how long did that take?" He said "2 months"
Wandidar said:
I don't discount for a second that you are right and that that would happen Bloodbeard - but - I think that after a year if people looked back, they would all too often realize that what they actually spent on entertainment ended up being more (and sometimes drastically more) than spending that $480.00.
Because another thing people are prone to is making moral stands and putting stakes in the ground... only realizing after the fact that they drove the stake (somehow) not through one foot, but both feet.
My situation is different than yours and so I have a completely different 'bottom line' :)
I am not married and I have no children. While my situation possibly affords me more flexibility in spending towards entertainment, it also opens up a world of other entertainment opportunities. I kayak, I fish, I hunt and so on and so on. I am not going to pay 40 bucks a month for a game when there will be time periods I may not wish to log in. If it comes down to blowing away 40 a month because I am going outside to hunt fish swim kayak or keep bees, chickens and whatever, then I would choose not to spend the money on a sub.
Also, I pay 20 bucks a month for the availability of multiple mmo's right now. Why would I ever consider paying more for less?
We agree, but disagree, and that is all good. :)
Zarriya said:
Sevens said:
...snip......to be honest I personally am against a free to play trial. Its just to open to abuse by gold seller spammers.
For this game they may need it. What I am seeing with gamers (and this is just my personal experience with many gamers that I talk with) Is that they are really darn tired of shelling out money for a game that they wind up not playing. Let's face it - Pantheon has some controversy so people are going to be shy to buy it. If they try it, they may like it and then sub. It is an honest approach as opposed to another game that just recently grabbed my cash and I do not play :( .
Some people are also sick of F2P - those are the type of gamers we want :) - gamers with commitment and money. The F2pers can go play their F2p games.
Sevens, I too am worried that the free trial will be easy access to gold spammers and trolls. What I suggest is that trial members do not have access to general/trade chat groups and they do not have access to mail or any broker like feature. These malignants have been very tenacious and may pay the sub to gain access, so a report system is mandatory.
I agree 100%, I am against it but I see the need for it...as far as restricting the use of general chat I am just really really really hoping there is no general chat.
Raidan said:
Hieromonk,
The problem with your argument is that there's many burger establishments that charge more than McDonalds, so it would not be abnormal to want better quality hamburgers and expect to pay more.
Conversely, there are not any other options in the gaming world with a $29.99+ subscription model. So, even if Pantheon is a hopefully better product, the market is completely different from the Hamburger buying world to the MMO world.
Point is: Serve your market.
I'll open another thread about this soon, as I've already said, I don't want to go in-depth on this and derail Chaams thread. But to rebuttal some concerns here, I will defend my position. (not Visionary Realms, or Brad's)
As adults, let not look at this per month, but per year.
So whats fair, PER YEAR price, to play an actual oldschool game (like EQ/VG) with today's technology and environments..? How much are you (not the public) willing to pay, per year to play a GM driven oldschool RP game, that even while you sleep... something is going on, and people may need you... (?)
$400..?
$300..?
$200..?
What do two tickets to a NFL/NHL/NBA cost.. $150 bucks..? Concert..? "a bag of weed" ..? The cost of gas for a month..? Cost of a bar tab with some ole college friends...? (Phone bill per month vs per year..?)
It is about finding the right 180,000 people, who want a premium experience.
Whom may be currently in 2~4 different games ATM, looking for a single home... again. These people & guilds are looking to pick up their minds-eye and will want to ceremoniously implant it into Terminus. And know this (their) new Character, will have a long life ahead of him. Heady games like EVE & EQ, have a steep learning curve and are not for everyone. Such games adds to tremendous value to that new Character. Knowing that people who come along 2~5 years later, will have the same battles as he... and not a buyable pass to the top.. (this is important).
If Visionary Realms does Pantheon right, your premium will buy something unattainable before. Even without marketing, I think Brad can grab 100,000 raving lunatics to drop $400/year on Pantheon (if it is anything like VG/EQ). Let alone offering it at $250/year and watching that madhouse increase even more. The point isn't if this game will sell. If done right (with proper time), it becomes how many players does VR want to turn away, until their next server is released. (People buying slot for the next server release, etc.)
I promise the line will be long, if VR follows an elite brand.(ie EVE). I hope their new website will reflect the upscale nature and adult-minded, meta-game within.
And lets be fair... what EQ nutjob didn't have a second account, and/or had to buy/build a new PC.
Cost wasn't an issue with EQ player base. There was a colossal fail on SOE part, when EQ started to boom. Instead of opening up so many servers, they should've raised the price $10 bucks, right then. Immediately less bandwidth being used, more profits, less crowded servers, better service., etc. In fact EQ prices did go up and had no impact on amount of subs. Only prob was, that increase did nothing to better serve those who wanted more.
A good faithful MMORPG is one of the most inexpensive hobbies you can have.
The EQ price jump was softened by being allowed to pay the same price 9.99 if you ordered 3 months at a time.
Once again, hieromonk, I think you are going to cut out enough possible subscribers to actually lose money you would have made by keeping the sub 20 and below. Only time will tell us the outcome, but if i were VRI I certainly would not want to take the chance, in a market where MMO's are failing, at alienating folks because of greed. It's being touted as 'small company working with a small budget'. People are going to wonder why they should pay more per month when the game cost less to develop, and thus less to maintain and expand.