Hi Everyone,
We have been receiving a lot of feedback from the wider community, asking for free members to be able to post in the General section of these forums, so they can join in and have their say. While this topic has been brought up and discussed before, we have been listening to everyones feedback and we have decided to put the question to you!
Would you like us to open up the General section of the forums to allow free members to join you in discussions on everything Pantheon related.
We will of course continue the restriction to the other sections, so that only subscribers of those levels can post in them and this will be a trial of sorts to monitor the posts in the general section.
So have your say and let us know how you feel on the topic?
You can find the link to the poll here ---> https://www.pantheonrotf.com/polls/view/218/should-free-members-be-able-to-p
Edit 21/01/2015: Poll Results as of this post:
Total votes: 77
In favour of opening up the forums to the free members: 43
In favour of keeping it closed to members and a paid privilege: 26
Undecided: 8
We received a lot of great feedback on the topic, we were looking closing to see what the communities responses would be, due to previous attempts at opening the forums up and the trouble it caused, we wanted to give it another chance but in doing so, we wanted to be absolutely sure this would be the right thing to do for us as a company and something that the community really wanted to go ahead with as well, since the scores were so close and the feedback was so divided and we were unable to get an overwhelming response either way, we have decided that it is best to keep the current member settings for the forums closed to paying members only.
We feel that the split in sides was too close to call and we don't think that with the results being so close that opening up the forums would of been the right thing to do. We will however be looking at making arrangements for a place that everyone can discuss Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen together at a later date, while we make some changes to this site in the near future to bring it more in line with our vision of being a development site.
So thank you all for your participation, it was very valuable feedback and please watch this space for more to come on this subject.
Freyja said:
Myself I am fine with it . There might be some trolls in the mix since it is free but they are easy enough to ban hehe
Yes, this is my thoughts also.
As most of you guy's will know, I am huge on freedom of speech, mature discussion and allowing the wider community to join us in supporting Pantheon and so is the team but we are prepared for some people to slip through the cracks and we will deal with those people accordingly, we hope it won't be many and everyone can enjoy open, constructive and mature discussion.
But ultimately the decision will be down to the community :)
I am a free account and was one of those allowed to post again once the smoke cleared a few months ago. Obviously, I don't want the privilege rescinded. :)
Really, Kilsin, the answer has to come from you and Joppa, Gator, because you guys will be inundated with posts to watch and moderate, and as Freyja said, some will require an eventual ban. Once you start banning, the word will be put out there that "VRI is trying to squelch the truth". It's happened in the past and the trolls will jump at the chance to get back on these forums.
Secondly, Brad and everyone have to agree the design ideas and art and sound, are ready to be severely scrutinized. The negativity will come to the forums if everyone is allowed to post.
If you end up opening the forums up to everyone, I would recommend archiving so the old posts which were controversial, will not be necro'd and old fires start to burn hot again.
BloodbeardBattlecaster said:
I am a free account and was one of those allowed to post again once the smoke cleared a few months ago. Obviously, I don't want the privilege rescinded. :)
Really, Kilsin, the answer has to come from you and Joppa, Gator, because you guys will be inundated with posts to watch and moderate, and as Freyja said, some will require an eventual ban. Once you start banning, the word will be put out there that "VRI is trying to squelch the truth". It's happened in the past and the trolls will jump at the chance to get back on these forums.
Secondly, Brad and everyone have to agree the design ideas and art and sound, are ready to be severely scrutinized. The negativity will come to the forums if everyone is allowed to post.
If you end up opening the forums up to everyone, I would recommend archiving so the old posts which were controversial, will not be necro'd and old fires start to burn hot again.
I understand your concerns mate, Chris and myself have discussed this and that is why we have put the vote to the community. We believe you guy's can play a big part in this also by continuing to post in a mature and civil manner, not engaging in hostile/troll posts and reporting them straight away, we will act quickly to maintain the maturity and civility that we have seen over the last few months and if anything dramatically changes, we will act accordingly.
We don't want to silence/ban anyone or lock/delete threads but we will make sure that the forums remain a friendly and mature place to post and we will enforce the guidelines when needed.
Anasyn said:
I like the idea I believe it was Krohm who mentioned in the poll. You can create another General forum section for free members to post in.
Yes, it's a good idea if things get out of hand mate, we can always create a free section in General but we hope that won't be needed and that everyone will be able to join in on community discussions with all things Pantheon :)
I fear the religious war.
I'm fine with opening up the forums - but if there suddenly appears a loud crowd calling for things like no / very light death penalties, fast travel, etc... I would want there to be strong statements from green text saying things like "I appreciate what you are saying, but what you are saying is not what Pantheon is about."
Otherwise, what has historically happened is that that crowd will get louder, more self righteous, and more demanding - and the paid people here will get quieter, less demanding, and disappear.
I'm basing this off of seeing exactly that trend in every single pre-MMO release forum from EQ2 and WoW through now. Including games like Vanguard. Without having an iota of proof - I suspect / believe that a group of old school players who would have made the release and early support of Vanguard stronger - walked away before the game released. I base this on seeing their voices disappear from the forums long before launch.
Wandidar said:
I fear the religious war.
I'm fine with opening up the forums - but if there suddenly appears a loud crowd calling for things like no / very light death penalties, fast travel, etc... I would want there to be strong statements from green text saying things like "I appreciate what you are saying, but what you are saying is not what Pantheon is about."
Otherwise, what has historically happened is that that crowd will get louder, more self righteous, and more demanding - and the paid people here will get quieter, less demanding, and disappear.
I'm basing this off of seeing exactly that trend in every single pre-MMO release forum from EQ2 and WoW through now. Including games like Vanguard. Without having an iota of proof - I suspect / believe that a group of old school players who would have made the release and early support of Vanguard stronger - walked away before the game released. I base this on seeing their voices disappear from the forums long before launch.
I have to agree here...seen it happen over and over and over again
Hold fast to your Vision (tm) Brad!
Wandidar said:
I fear the religious war.
I'm fine with opening up the forums - but if there suddenly appears a loud crowd calling for things like no / very light death penalties, fast travel, etc... I would want there to be strong statements from green text saying things like "I appreciate what you are saying, but what you are saying is not what Pantheon is about."
Otherwise, what has historically happened is that that crowd will get louder, more self righteous, and more demanding - and the paid people here will get quieter, less demanding, and disappear.
I'm basing this off of seeing exactly that trend in every single pre-MMO release forum from EQ2 and WoW through now. Including games like Vanguard. Without having an iota of proof - I suspect / believe that a group of old school players who would have made the release and early support of Vanguard stronger - walked away before the game released. I base this on seeing their voices disappear from the forums long before launch.
There will be no war mate.
We are well aware of what happened last time, which is why we are putting it in the communities hands to decide if we should try it again, since we have been getting a lot of feedback asking for this from supportive followers who are unable to subscribe for whatever reason.
There will be some trouble makers and we will deal with them accordingly. We want to allow as many people as possible to have a say and let them join in on mature and constructive discussions, if some are not able to do that, they will be dealt with. If it becomes to much, we have alternatives we can go to and in the worst case, we can revert the changes and restrict the forums again to just members.
Just look at it as a last chance "trial" to help bring the community together and allow more into the discussions. There will of course be more people with differing opinions so it will also test some peoples patience but in the instance of hostile posters, please report and ignore them and any drama they may try to incite, we will act as needed to maintain these boards as a friendly and mature place to discuss all things Pantheon.
Ok - makes me nervous - but ok.
Using the terms "old school" and "new school" here because I think we all give the same connotation to what those mean - I just want debate on these forums (when we get to the point where mechanics / etc... are being debated) centered around:
"What is the best old school way to implement X"
Because I am dog tired of fighting this invariable post:
"Old school is stupid and outdated. Nobody likes it. If they do that, the game will fail. They need to do new school."
Hackles raised, lines in the sand drawn, battles commence.
And from the poster perspective? "Old school" folks will see pretty much any change in mechanic or stance at that point as "caving" - not ALL old school folks, but some. Some new school folks will as well - you will be able to tell because they will get louder in the forums. That's been the history of these things.
I hope it doesn't happen again.
Dasilva said:
if they are not contributing the forums should definetly not be open to them, maybe have a public sub forum but honestly I would steer clear of allowing the freeloaders access to the contributor section of the forums
We don't think anyone is a freeloader, many people have various reasons for supporting Pantheon financially or holding off until they see more and that is completely fine but we think opening up the general section for another attempt at allowing more into the discussion is a step in the right direction.
We are only allowing the general section public access if the community decides that it is what they want. The Apprentice Developer (Orange) and VIP (Purple) sections will not change at all.
Again, this (if decided by you guys) will be a trial to let more people into the discussion, we understand the risks and are willing to take them to allow more supportive gamers into the mix, if this turns out to be a bad idea (again) we will act accordingly but we think it is important to let as many mature and supportive people as possible join in on Pantheon discussions in the general section.
Wandidar said:
Ok - makes me nervous - but ok.
Using the terms "old school" and "new school" here because I think we all give the same connotation to what those mean - I just want debate on these forums (when we get to the point where mechanics / etc... are being debated) centered around:
"What is the best old school way to implement X"
Because I am dog tired of fighting this invariable post:
"Old school is stupid and outdated. Nobody likes it. If they do that, the game will fail. They need to do new school."
Hackles raised, lines in the sand drawn, battles commence.
And from the poster perspective? "Old school" folks will see pretty much any change in mechanic or stance at that point as "caving" - not ALL old school folks, but some. Some new school folks will as well - you will be able to tell because they will get louder in the forums. That's been the history of these things.
I hope it doesn't happen again.
That is the type of posts that we will be looking at closely and anything deemed a potential to incite unrest will be moderated (usually) with a friendly post to remind everyone of the forum/community guidelines and expectations, if that is ignored then action will be taken to steer the discussion back on track.
A question - if it's a trial, how will you undo it if it fails without alienating one group or the other?
Do you remove anyone from the forums again who is not paid? Do you create another paid "general" forum? Do you tell the paid people to go restrict themselves to what would still be paid only sections of the forum?
What is the exit plan?
What happens if the paid people decide for you - and more or less avoid the general section entirely? Does that create its own rift in the community for you guys to figure out?
I'm really not trying to be intentionally negative - I'm just expressing concern and asking questions.
Wandidar said:
A question - if it's a trial, how will you undo it if it fails without alienating one group or the other?
Do you remove anyone from the forums again who is not paid? Do you create another paid "general" forum? Do you tell the paid people to go restrict themselves to what would still be paid only sections of the forum?
What is the exit plan?
What happens if the paid people decide for you - and more or less avoid the general section entirely? Does that create its own rift in the community for you guys to figure out?
I'm really not trying to be intentionally negative - I'm just expressing concern and asking questions.
It's a trial in the sense that if it doesn't work out, we will take measures to either create a new public section or just toggle the permission off again and the forums go back to normal just like they are now. No paid member will be affected at all.
We won't let it get to that point so there is nothing to worry about. ;)
Honestly ok I apologize for calling them freeloaders, I will try to avoid that label in the future, but I REALLY think the best idea would be to set up a public forums that everyone can access and then a private forums for contributors only, I really think that if your curious about the game you should be willing to at least toss 14 dollars a month into the mix.
Ok it already kinda sounds like the team has made up their mind. This reminds me of other games currently not released yet who tried to get the community to vote on things and then do what they wanted to begin with.
The people who are backing this game don't need to compete with non-backers on every topic that is brought up. Keep a separate general forum that is open to anybody to post things in. you can even have the moderators mirror good topic discussion and post them for debate in the open general forum.
I understand you want more people on the site but don't do it at the cost of those who have been around since kickstarter and have donated hundreds of dollars.
I think you all should look at the decision in a risk versus reward way. Is the risk (having to deal with a lot of negative trolls that can simple create another account) worth the reward (open dialog with a greater number of players). Will the amount of negative posts overwhelm the number of sincere posts? You have data from our past forums and you see forums such as MMORPG.com and Massively. Do you really want to deal with that here?
I actually like to log onto these forums because it doesn't have all the negative posts. I am all about free speech and from the past, my eyes were opened to several things that happened. Its not like this forum banns every negative comment made. I saw how a lot of posters were able to have their say (Frenzic for example) and I am glad it was that way. There are also some things that happened that I do not have full knowledge on yet (Niritix for example) and have listened to other forums for that information. But I like these forums kept to subscribers - they are the people who are serious about this project. I saw that my opinion is in the minority from the poll, that is okay; I respect whichever way it is handled.
Having the forums open to subscribers only is to me it is how I hope the game will be. People will know you by your reputation. Players will not be anonymous and be able to hide behind their anonymity. By knowing the source of information trust is built and truth revealed.
I am all for opening the general forums to the public - there should be nothing super secret here to hide. It makes sense to open them to free accounts. You want the non-paying community to interact and feel that they have a voice. Once personally invested, there's a greater chance of a monetary investment. Additionally, it works as a form of marketing also - a greater chance that word of mouth referrals will snowball (free members tell their friends, who tell their friends, etc.).
To control the cries of I want easy-mode MMO - it's simple, just have a locked/sticky thread prior to the opening to the general community on Pantheon tenets which are basically "set in stone." Harsh death penalty, Group-Centric, No Quest hubs, etc., so if someone comes here saying "why can't Pantheon have XYZ like ABC Easy-Mode MMO" - we can simply assist in moderating by saying refer to sticky thread - #1.
I always thought it was a terrible idea to say you have to subscribe or a pay a pledge to post on the forums. I never would be an orange member (even today) if it wasn't for the actual pledge tiered rewards. You could possibly make an argument if the original idea of the apprentince developers was in effect - but it's not. I believe paying to have the privilege to post on a forum is overkill (especially when there is about equal information released on the Facebook page).
Therefore... there's still a huge incentive to pledge - alpha, beta, $1 yearly rate (by the the best reward to me) and you could get more critical eyes that could only assist in game development. And, I think there's a strong, mature enough community here that could assist community wide in moderating some of the obvious trolling.
Here are my thoughts.
More heads are better than few. It's a bit nieve to believe all of the ideas necessary to make a successful game are going to come from our closed group of supporters. At the end of the day more ideas are better and let's face it, we will need to increase this group at some point to get this thing rolling.
That said, if the team is behind the vision for this game - what it will be and what it will NOT be, then we need to trust they'll sift through the conversation, remove the negative components and look for the features and experience enhancing dialogue that we need. As long as the general populous is confined to certain sections I don't see a problem with it. I'd rather have thousands of posts on this site generating chatter and conversation than a few dozen or hundred of the same group each and every time.
It'll be a balancing act but I leave it to the team to figure out how best to implement that. At the end of the day I think it's healthy to open it up, just make sure some thought goes into how it's done and controlled. I assume the 'Report User' button works? There's no reason the community can't help police ourselves simply by reporting inappropriate conversation or trolls to keep them away.
One final suggestion to the team. It may be a worthwhile idea to have a one-time pop-up that appears when you come to the forums for the first time briefly outlining the game, it's goals, and it's vision specifically to set the tone so they don't come in and try to make suggestions to bring us more in line with regular MMOs. Not long (we know they won't read)... 15 or 20 lines, middle of your screen, easy close button, whatever. Something so they understand what this is about. If you try to put this in a 'READ THIS FIRST' post... no one will, as we all know.
I think you all should look at the decision in a risk versus reward way. Is the risk (having to deal with a lot of negative trolls that can simple create another account) worth the reward (open dialog with a greater number of players). Will the amount of negative posts overwhelm the number of sincere posts? You have data from our past forums and you see forums such as MMORPG.com and Massively. Do you really want to deal with that here?
I actually like to log onto these forums because it doesn't have all the negative posts. I am all about free speech and from the past, my eyes were opened to several things that happened. Its not like this forum banns every negative comment made. I saw how a lot of posters were able to have their say (Frenzic for example) and I am glad it was that way. There are also some things that happened that I do not have full knowledge on yet (Niritix for example) and have listened to other forums for that information. But I like these forums kept to subscribers - they are the people who are serious about this project. I saw that my opinion is in the minority from the poll, that is okay; I respect whichever way it is handled.
Having the forums open to subscribers only is to me it is how I hope the game will be. People will know you by your reputation. Players will not be anonymous and be able to hide behind their anonymity. By knowing the source of information trust is built and truth revealed.
A good post and generally how I feel, though I do feel if we create a space in which they can post, we'll limit the conversation from affecting anything else. We can simply pull back out of that and have parallel conversation elsewhere should we feel it's too difficult.
On this note perhaps a better approach would be to create one forum for general posts. Don't open it up entirely to general. They can read through general and make their posts in the confined space... Just a thought - again not sure how best to implement this.
Treyekh said:
I think you all should look at the decision in a risk versus reward way. Is the risk (having to deal with a lot of negative trolls that can simple create another account) worth the reward (open dialog with a greater number of players). Will the amount of negative posts overwhelm the number of sincere posts? You have data from our past forums and you see forums such as MMORPG.com and Massively. Do you really want to deal with that here?
I actually like to log onto these forums because it doesn't have all the negative posts. I am all about free speech and from the past, my eyes were opened to several things that happened. Its not like this forum banns every negative comment made. I saw how a lot of posters were able to have their say (Frenzic for example) and I am glad it was that way. There are also some things that happened that I do not have full knowledge on yet (Niritix for example) and have listened to other forums for that information. But I like these forums kept to subscribers - they are the people who are serious about this project. I saw that my opinion is in the minority from the poll, that is okay; I respect whichever way it is handled.
Having the forums open to subscribers only is to me it is how I hope the game will be. People will know you by your reputation. Players will not be anonymous and be able to hide behind their anonymity. By knowing the source of information trust is built and truth revealed.
A good post and generally how I feel, though I do feel if we create a space in which they can post, we'll limit the conversation from affecting anything else. We can simply pull back out of that and have parallel conversation elsewhere should we feel it's too difficult.
On this note perhaps a better approach would be to create one forum for general posts. Don't open it up entirely to general. They can read through general and make their posts in the confined space... Just a thought - again not sure how best to implement this.
A lot of forums for games in development have separate forums for their alpha/beta testers. We may see something similar here.
Raidan said:
I am all for opening the general forums to the public - there should be nothing super secret here to hide. .......snip....
I completely agree that there should be nothing to hide. The way the forums are now is that anyone can view them, but you need to be invested to post.