dorotea said:EppE - to the extent you are saying that healing classes need to be distinctly worse in DPS than DPS classes not just marignally worse I heartily agree.
On the other hand every class (including healers) should be at least somewhat competent by themselves. Every class should be able to explore and wander around without having to run in terror if they get too close to a single enemy about their own level.
No reason a helaer can't fight as well as a DPS class - the DPS will kill faster and end up half dead the healer will kill slowly and wind up at full health. Designed well the XP per minute will be identical for both.
Original EQ didn't have roles. The manual only pointed out general directions with each class referring to tasks (ie offensive abilities, defensive abilities, healing abiliites, etc... ), not "declaring" a specific role in a group. D&D was the same way, assigining skills, abilities that a class had and then players would figure out how to apply them. Roles are mainstream design as well as the desire to "balance" classes to a focus is also a mainstream design.
In AD&D, a cleric was nothing more than a soldier with a religous devotion. The cleric was plate wearing, but held to certain rules an structures (ie they only used blunt weapons) and they focused themsevles to their prayer. They were soldiers, able in combat, but they were not "specialists". The paladin was more of the exemplary holy warrior, the "swat team" of the clerics, more focused on combat, able to use swords and have higher physical tranining, but in the cost of such, limited spell focus. A balance if you will.
Roles are a problem, they DEFINE ABSOLUTELY limitations.
So, there is EVERYTHING wrong with a healer fighting as well as a DPS role. A DPS role focuses on damage, a HEALER being able to ALSO do DPS invalidates the point of playing a DPS class. This is why in EQ Hybrids became KING in the game for a long time. Hybrids could do everything and people complained about them needing to "compete" in various things. At one time in EQ, SKs and Paladins were tanking just as well as a warrior, making a warrior irrelevant in the content. Why play a sole melee class when you can play a caster who can heal, snare, invis, bless, buff, summon pets, etc... AND tank?
Hence the problem of hybrid classes becoming king and why a lot of EQ was destroyed in class balance (ie the class balance wars).
So if we are designing based on "roles", which VR has stated, NO a healer can NOT do DPS ANYWHERE near a DPS class or it will invalidate the DPS role.
Welcome to role based design, better strap in, the class wars are about to begin!
Tanix said:So if we are designing based on "roles", which VR has stated, NO a healer can NOT do DPS ANYWHERE near a DPS class or it will invalidate the DPS role.
Welcome to role based design, better strap in, the class wars are about to begin!
Pretty sure nobody is aruging for that, but it doesn't mean healers can't be able to do a fair level of DPS and there are plenty of ways to make it work without them having abilities that hit like limp noodles.
Iksar said:Tanix said:So if we are designing based on "roles", which VR has stated, NO a healer can NOT do DPS ANYWHERE near a DPS class or it will invalidate the DPS role.
Welcome to role based design, better strap in, the class wars are about to begin!
Pretty sure nobody is aruging for that, but it doesn't mean healers can't be able to do a fair level of DPS and there are plenty of ways to make it work without them having abilities that hit like limp noodles.
That is the catch though.
If a healer can DPS at a level where it has merit, then it invalidates DPS as a role. A healer can never be anywhere near that of DPS (this is why I hate DPS as a role) or you invalidate completely a DPS role.
I mean, oh wow.... you can kill that mob 30 seconds to 1 min faster than I? Here is a golf clap for you, I killed it slower, but I can heal to full, buff, and be back to fighting far before you regen your HP (you have to consider that HP regen has to be slower than mana).
This was the problem with hybrids in EQ. They demanded to "compete" (not overpower) the main focus classes and when they got what they wanted, they became gods among the classes.
I have said it before, I will say it again; VR making DPS as a "ROLE" is a massive mistake they will come to realize later on.
Tanix said:That is the catch though.
If a healer can DPS at a level where it has merit, then it invalidates DPS as a role. A healer can never be anywhere near that of DPS (this is why I hate DPS as a role) or you invalidate completely a DPS role.
I mean, oh wow.... you can kill that mob 30 seconds to 1 min faster than I? Here is a golf clap for you, I killed it slower, but I can heal to full, buff, and be back to fighting far before you regen your HP (you have to consider that HP regen has to be slower than mana).
This was the problem with hybrids in EQ. They demanded to "compete" (not overpower) the main focus classes and when they got what they wanted, they became gods among the classes.
I have said it before, I will say it again; VR making DPS as a "ROLE" is a massive mistake they will come to realize later on.
Plenty of ways to make it work, for example: longer cooldowns and more abilities required. I don't see what is broken if a healer can equal the damage a DPS throws out for very limited windows; if a rogue puts out 100 DPS average (with spikes here and there) but a cleric averages 50 dps with small windows to burst up to 100 dps once every 30-60 seconds all while requiring almost a full bar of damage abilities no one is going to replace a DPS with a healer.
Iksar said:Tanix said:That is the catch though.
If a healer can DPS at a level where it has merit, then it invalidates DPS as a role. A healer can never be anywhere near that of DPS (this is why I hate DPS as a role) or you invalidate completely a DPS role.
I mean, oh wow.... you can kill that mob 30 seconds to 1 min faster than I? Here is a golf clap for you, I killed it slower, but I can heal to full, buff, and be back to fighting far before you regen your HP (you have to consider that HP regen has to be slower than mana).
This was the problem with hybrids in EQ. They demanded to "compete" (not overpower) the main focus classes and when they got what they wanted, they became gods among the classes.
I have said it before, I will say it again; VR making DPS as a "ROLE" is a massive mistake they will come to realize later on.
Plenty of ways to make it work, for example: longer cooldowns and more abilities required. I don't see what is broken if a healer can equal the damage a DPS throws out for very limited windows; if a rogue puts out 100 DPS average (with spikes here and there) but a cleric averages 50 dps with small windows to burst up to 100 dps once every 30-60 seconds all while requiring almost a full bar of damage abilities no one is going to replace a DPS with a healer.
You speak in meters, I speak in completing objectives. If both can achieve the same result, the healer is a better choice.
Who cares how fast it takes to down the mob, as long as it is downed and having someone who can do more than damage after, before or during the fight is ALWAYS a better pick in such situations. This is why hybrids will always be king in such content.
Tanix said:You speak in meters, I speak in completing objectives. If both can achieve the same result, the healer is a better choice.
Who cares how fast it takes to down the mob, as long as it is downed and having someone who can do more than damage after, before or during the fight is ALWAYS a better pick in such situations. This is why hybrids will always be king in such content.
Hey if someone wants to run a group with healers as DPS to tackle some content and move at a turtles pace then more power to them. I can't see that working out so well against mobs similar to the Gurkha shown in the Tower of the Reckless Magician stream let alone various boss NPCs as the healer(s) would run dry before the mob went down.
I'd imagine the vast majority of players would care how fast it takes to down a mob and would much prefer making 2x+ the progress/experience with a proper group composition.
Tanix said:You speak in meters, I speak in completing objectives. If both can achieve the same result, the healer is a better choice.
Who cares how fast it takes to down the mob, as long as it is downed and having someone who can do more than damage after, before or during the fight is ALWAYS a better pick in such situations. This is why hybrids will always be king in such content.
Kills per minute is the exact thing that a min/max community will look at, and you can gurantee a min/max community will be here as well. It doesn't matter if a healer CAN kill a mob, the DPS does it faster. A healer healing, a tank tanking, and DPS doing there thing will always be a more effecient way of earning exp and beating content than hybrids. No one wanted Hybrids in their group in EQ, or very few atleast. Paladins were a passable tank because of stun. That was really it. Rangers did worse damage than most DPS classes. SK's had dots which caused havoc with any CC class so they were often last picked for tanking. Bards were good but not as good as an enchanter in most cases. Jack of all trades do not work in a min/max enivornment.
It doesn't matter what the instruction book says or what description the developers give a class, its how the community uses it that really matters. How it is used is more important than how it was invisioned.
Iksar said:Tanix said:You speak in meters, I speak in completing objectives. If both can achieve the same result, the healer is a better choice.
Who cares how fast it takes to down the mob, as long as it is downed and having someone who can do more than damage after, before or during the fight is ALWAYS a better pick in such situations. This is why hybrids will always be king in such content.
Hey if someone wants to run a group with healers as DPS to tackle some content and move at a turtles pace then more power to them. I can't see that working out so well against mobs similar to the Gurkha shown in the Tower of the Reckless Magician stream let alone various boss NPCs as the healer(s) would run dry before the mob went down.
I'd imagine the vast majority of players would care how fast it takes to down a mob and would much prefer making 2x+ the progress/experience with a proper group composition.
Being concerned about how fast you kill, how fast it takes to get somewhere, how fast it takes to level to max. That doesn't seem like the market VR is attending to, though it has been a while since I combed over the tenants, I could be wrong and they could have changed. /shrug
EppE said:Tanix said:You speak in meters, I speak in completing objectives. If both can achieve the same result, the healer is a better choice.
Who cares how fast it takes to down the mob, as long as it is downed and having someone who can do more than damage after, before or during the fight is ALWAYS a better pick in such situations. This is why hybrids will always be king in such content.
Kills per minute is the exact thing that a min/max community will look at, and you can gurantee a min/max community will be here as well. It doesn't matter if a healer CAN kill a mob, the DPS does it faster. A healer healing, a tank tanking, and DPS doing there thing will always be a more effecient way of earning exp and beating content than hybrids. No one wanted Hybrids in their group in EQ, or very few atleast. Paladins were a passable tank because of stun. That was really it. Rangers did worse damage than most DPS classes. SK's had dots which caused havoc with any CC class so they were often last picked for tanking. Bards were good but not as good as an enchanter in most cases. Jack of all trades do not work in a min/max enivornment.
It doesn't matter what the instruction book says or what description the developers give a class, its how the community uses it that really matters. How it is used is more important than how it was invisioned.
Yep, I remember them in EQ. They would tell my guild and groups what could and could not be done based on our make up. We did it anyway.
Interesting...
Rangers had some deficiencies, mostly due to their ranged weapon design, but they offered genral support in a group with a blance of abilities and some damage (roots, snares, healing, buffs, etc) Paladins had a large one shot heal (lay on hands)which was great for certain situations, provided some useful tanking and buffing abilities. SKs, this one I find amusing as they were amazing hybrids, providing pets which could be useful in numerous situations (pulling, diverting, additional DPS, interupting casters), they could heal themselves and provide dot healing to others, they could snare inside, root, and they had the hands down BEST taunt spell in the game which eventually got nerfed because of it. They could do good 2handed DPS as well and were great for dealing with runners in dungeons.
Bards were I think probably one of the most powerful classes out there. They could heal, regen mana, provid dispells, speed buffs, invis, etc... In fact, they became so powerful they could kite entire zones of mobs in PoP solo.
There were some problems, limitations with some classes (rangers, rogues had some issues, etc...). In fact, warriors were made pretty much just raid tanks as they started to "buff" the paladin and SK's even more. Even then, SKs and Pallies became lead tanks (we had an undergeared Pally tank Terror in PoF pre-SoL).
I never bought into the whole "social mob" opinion thing. The mob was often ignorant and followed whoever was the loudest whiner (Furor was notorious for stiring up crap and the mobs just followed around like American idol voters). So, yea... the "mob" can do whatever it likes, but the mob is often wrong. I have seen it proved wrong more times than I can count. The mob is made of whiners, complainers, and loud mouths. /shrug
fazool said:This topic is about some observations that can be cautionary tales to Pantheon: Rise of The Fallen. It is not off-topic nor about another game - the experiences are used as anecdotes.
I am playing on the 20th anniversary slow progression server of EQ1 and currently in Classic (1999) everquest.
There are a *TON* of people playing and discussions about looking forward to PRF seem to be the norm.
I am playing an Enchanter which is, of course, the ultimate grouping character. It is a little discouraging however that I can't go hunt where I want. I wanted to go to Xorb but there were only 2 other players in the zone. I wanted to go to KFC but it was all singles and duos playing. I went around the world: Gfay-->BB-->FP-->Commonlands-->Kith-->HPH-->EK-->NK-->SK-->Lake Rathe-->Rathe-->Innothule. I didn't get to kill one mob. It was discouraging. Although I am looking for a grouping game, there are times when I want to kill something in particular (maybe very slowly or with more risk).
The travel didn't bother me at all. The inability to do something *I* wanted to do was a real discouragement and reminded me of the disappointment that is very real at times. So I rolled a Mage.
Looking at the LFG window, it's a ton of Druids, Shaman and DPS-ers, especially mages and wizards. I've literally seen *ONE* cleric on LFG since I started playing on the release date. One! That means there aren't enough of them and they are in high demand. It seems like everyone rolled a class that's more "fun" to play. So making each class fun is going to be a real challenge. My groups literally sat around trying to hybrid heal while hoping a cleric pops up.
So there is a definite issue with the fun associated with various classes and the ability to play what/when you want.
The other thing was the micro transactions were rampant. People selling Kronos (which is their way of selling plat for real world money) and the ability to buy plat (via Kronos) and immediately buy healing potions, clarity potions etc. Pure pay-to-win even on a classic progression server.
So, lessons I would like learned:
- Healthy population of people are waiting for PRF
- Even grouping classes need to be able to solo things at their level a little bit
- The "fun" of each class needs to be equivalent. Different type of fun, but comparable in amount of fun
- Being LFG sucks. Hard.
Yes I said something about this as well, at least the whole soloing with a sense of danger type of thing but basically got blasted with we want a group centric orientated game and don't want class to solo except for a select few type responses, we'll basically leads to the problems that you listed, or can anyway, I'm sure a ton of people could reroll their class if they literally can nothing on their own to a class that simply can it's just going to happen but if you give leeway to some classes to do things on their own it can make for a healthy server with great diversity of all the classes being played.
Tanix said:Iksar said:Tanix said:So if we are designing based on "roles", which VR has stated, NO a healer can NOT do DPS ANYWHERE near a DPS class or it will invalidate the DPS role.
Welcome to role based design, better strap in, the class wars are about to begin!
Pretty sure nobody is aruging for that, but it doesn't mean healers can't be able to do a fair level of DPS and there are plenty of ways to make it work without them having abilities that hit like limp noodles.
That is the catch though.
If a healer can DPS at a level where it has merit, then it invalidates DPS as a role. A healer can never be anywhere near that of DPS (this is why I hate DPS as a role) or you invalidate completely a DPS role.
I mean, oh wow.... you can kill that mob 30 seconds to 1 min faster than I? Here is a golf clap for you, I killed it slower, but I can heal to full, buff, and be back to fighting far before you regen your HP (you have to consider that HP regen has to be slower than mana).
This was the problem with hybrids in EQ. They demanded to "compete" (not overpower) the main focus classes and when they got what they wanted, they became gods among the classes.
I have said it before, I will say it again; VR making DPS as a "ROLE" is a massive mistake they will come to realize later on.
Are you simply arguing with people just to argue with someone in general, having a healer be able to solo something doesn't invalidate a dps class at all, much like having a tank heal a bit doesn't invalidate healers, or have a dps have an ability to off tank in a pinch doesn't invalidate tanks. Stop acting like if your Healer role all you can do is heal, that's a broken system.for one not even EQ was made that way and it's 20 years old so why would we do it now?
And if you think a cleric who can solo undead mobs in EQ quite well invalidated any dps class whatsoever I would like to really know how, cause we all know it didn't or even thought it ever did.
They are alrdy making dps classes have utility like rogue getting a mez, though using it they savrafice their dps to do it, and yes they should have dps as a role,
Not to insult anyone posting in regards to the Cleric soloing comments here but I think there is an inexperience in general with MMORP games and class abilities seen here. There is a multitude of games (Outside WoW and the EQ series) that host viability for healing classes such as Clerics and them getting into the thick of it with offensive abilities, while still having a primary healing role.
Now while you won’t be burning through mobs like a damage dealing class such as a Wizard, Necromancer, Monk, or Enchanters, the risk threat for them pulling is lower versus those classes. Now, while it may take them a longer period of time to kill these mobs they are able to face tank and heal through damaged received successfully
For those who haven’t experienced it, I highly recommended the Vanguard emulator and trying out the Cleric class there to experience what I am talking about. They had a Cleric of War path (Higher physical damage outgoing), Cleric of death path (Higher offensive spell direct/dot damage), and a Cleric of peace path (Higher healing/less mana use on heals).
Even with these paths Clerics still could solo and retain the best direct healing abilities in the game, without challenging true damage dealing classes.
Nanfoodle said: I don't agree with the OP... Classes need to be unbalanced to make them shine at the roles they are designed to fill. I would rather the game went in a different direction and made is so that teaming, even just a Duo, is needed to get anywhere when it comes to exp. Adding class synergies have many layers, so that just about any small team or Duo could find something to do. Also I don't think there will be a healer problem if VR keeps their word. Every healer can be the main healer.
Me personally I feel people need to feel they can do something on their own, because restricting them to not be able to with a certain class but can with others will cause a huge shift of which classes get played, so if it were up to be its all or nothing either all can solo somewhat, or none can solo period. That just me, I don't want to see a ton of casters just because they can solo efficency and everything but struggle to find a healer simply because no one wants to play them because they are so group dependant that feel handcuffed without one.
So I was reading this forum and I keep seeing the question of should Clerics/ other healers have access to DPS abilities. Here is where I stand.
I am 26 years of age to give you an idea of the demographic and generation that I fall in. I have been gaming for 20 years (most of my life span) and in those 20 years, I have ALWAYS (yes always) mained a healer. I started off in EQ in 1999 as a mage, then I moved onto an enchanter before I finally settled into my role as a healer on my cleric. Since then I have played pretty much EVERY (yes every) MMO on the market, and I have experienced EVERY (yes every) healer archetype one could imagine. It probably should be noted here that while I main healers I also have experience with/playing pretty much every DPS archetype and tank archetype because I feel in order to understand your role as a healer you also need to know how the ins and outs of other classes. (Or long story I am cool and have no life).
I believe that regardless of class the healer's first and formost job is to heal, dispell allies, and buff. Now when you start talking about class differentiation I believe that different buffs, CC, and enemy debuffs come into play here. Note that I am not referring to dots in this instance when referring to debuffs.
Here is where I stand on the topic of healers having DPS abilities. Yes, I believe that healers should have DPS abilities because it adds to the class archetype and class immersion. However, I did not choose a healer class just so I could focus on DPSing (Unless that is how the class is designed to heal). Healers should not have high damage, be required to damage, nor should end game content be balanced around DPS output from healers. There are 3 major MMOs on the market (WoW, ESO, and FFXIV), all of these balance endgames around healer DPS. The worst of these 3 is FFXIV as fights are heavily scripted and there are some fights where healers end up DPSing 50-70% of the time, and the healing meta is determined by which healer has the most DPS output. I lost interest in ESO and FFXIV because of how healers are designed.
Pantheon is planning to have 3/4 group roles: Tanks, Healers, DPS/CC and group sizes of six players. Each player in that group should have a dedicated job to perform and in terms of healers, mobs should be designed to give healers very little downtime to cast DPS spells.
Baldur said:So I was reading this forum and I keep seeing the question of should Clerics/ other healers have access to DPS abilities. Here is where I stand.
I am 26 years of age to give you an idea of the demographic and generation that I fall in. I have been gaming for 20 years (most of my life span) and in those 20 years, I have ALWAYS (yes always) mained a healer. I started off in EQ in 1999 as a mage, then I moved onto an enchanter before I finally settled into my role as a healer on my cleric. Since then I have played pretty much EVERY (yes every) MMO on the market, and I have experienced EVERY (yes every) healer archetype one could imagine. It probably should be noted here that while I main healers I also have experience with/playing pretty much every DPS archetype and tank archetype because I feel in order to understand your role as a healer you also need to know how the ins and outs of other classes. (Or long story I am cool and have no life).
I believe that regardless of class the healer's first and formost job is to heal, dispell allies, and buff. Now when you start talking about class differentiation I believe that different buffs, CC, and enemy debuffs come into play here. Note that I am not referring to dots in this instance when referring to debuffs.
Here is where I stand on the topic of healers having DPS abilities. Yes, I believe that healers should have DPS abilities because it adds to the class archetype and class immersion. However, I did not choose a healer class just so I could focus on DPSing (Unless that is how the class is designed to heal). Healers should not have high damage, be required to damage, nor should end game content be balanced around DPS output from healers. There are 3 major MMOs on the market (WoW, ESO, and FFXIV), all of these balance endgames around healer DPS. The worst of these 3 is FFXIV as fights are heavily scripted and there are some fights where healers end up DPSing 50-70% of the time, and the healing meta is determined by which healer has the most DPS output. I lost interest in ESO and FFXIV because of how healers are designed.
Pantheon is planning to have 3/4 group roles: Tanks, Healers, DPS/CC and group sizes of six players. Each player in that group should have a dedicated job to perform and in terms of healers, mobs should be designed to give healers very little downtime to cast DPS spells.
Yes I agree with this I don't believe a healer should feel forced to dps is a group setting, nor would I want them to because they should worry more but healing than killing something. I merely just want them.to have enough offense to where they don't feel handcuffed to the point that soloing is simply out of reach. But is your regards as in a group I believe that they could put the damage spells away, or most of then anyway, and cast your other spells to support your grp the way you class was designed to do.
I think it is totally fine if every class has enough utility that they can solo and make progress, but grouping will always be a preferred alternative. EQ's Mangler server has a kind of solution to this (as any class in EQ now can solo to some degree), but they finally at some point realized that making a Group XP bonus that is actually superior to the XP you can get soloing means people actually want to group even if they don't strictly need to. It is really nice to have that option available when groups aren't as easy to find -- hopefully not a problem for a while with Pantheon, but not the worst case to plan ahead for.
You can design classes in such a way that traditional roles, and the Holy Quaternity, as they've called it, still exists without that being the only viable way to play the game. There is nothing more stifling to the enjoyment of a game than feeling like you're railroaded into only one way to play. Keep the Holy Quaternity the optimal setup for a group, but allow for the possibility that players can find other ways to make the game playable. There's nothing wrong with a Cleric being the best healer, but also being able to do enough DPS or off-tanking that they aren't forced into a role of just sitting and watching health bars. The Cleric should not be able to equal the DPS of a DPS class, or the tanking ability of a tank class (or the CC ability of a CC class), but there's no reason any class shouldn't be able to perform a combination of all roles.
Personally, I think it's really cool to meet a player who knows how to use their class' other abilities to save an encounter in a pinch.
It would be absurd to have a group ever say, "Skip the Rogue, we can get a Cleric instead," but there is a lot of room between that sort of a situation and forcing a Cleric to be nothing more than a glorified Heal Button.
Tanix said:That is the catch though.
If a healer can DPS at a level where it has merit, then it invalidates DPS as a role. A healer can never be anywhere near that of DPS (this is why I hate DPS as a role) or you invalidate completely a DPS role.
I mean, oh wow.... you can kill that mob 30 seconds to 1 min faster than I? Here is a golf clap for you, I killed it slower, but I can heal to full, buff, and be back to fighting far before you regen your HP (you have to consider that HP regen has to be slower than mana).
This was the problem with hybrids in EQ. They demanded to "compete" (not overpower) the main focus classes and when they got what they wanted, they became gods among the classes.
I have said it before, I will say it again; VR making DPS as a "ROLE" is a massive mistake they will come to realize later on.
Except that Pantheon is a group based game, and grouping allows players to focus on their particular specialization. Hybrid classes may be the best at soloing, but so what? Soloing isn't that big a part of the game, at least not based on how it's being designed. I think healers should be doing roughly 30-50% of a "true" dps class's damage would be appropriate, with clerics being at the lower end, druids in the middle, and shaman being at the top of that range.
Being a Cleric myself, I generally have the opinion that the average player is looking for "fun" and not necessarily "challenge". Well, that would be the healer retort since healers take a lot of negativity when a raid wipes; considering people always say, blame the healer.
When it comes down to it, a healer is harder to level and requires a certain level of diligence in a group. In designing how a healer levels, though, I would not want any kind of a boost. As for the lack of supply, that is a community issue. The thing is, the community always adjusts. One way this happens is within guilds. I have played in several MMOs where my guild was short of healers. To remedy this, the call was put out to the guild, anyone interested in leveling a healer would receive special attention. Leveling assistance through low-level dungeon runs, potions, gear, mount subside, etc were made available. Some complained that this was essentially setting up a Rent-A-Healer type of system. Afterall, what if they decided to leave once you helped them level? Well that was just a risk that had to be taken. I actually recall during WoW/BC where some friends and I considered starting a Rent-A-Pally guild; nothing but Pallys; all for hire.
So if there is a shortage it will be filled. No reason for VH to get involved...it's a Community Issue.
Having systems like Heroic Opportunities, Fellowship Maneuvres, Weaknesses, Status effect exploitation, and similar can make all classes fun to play, because it requires group co-ordination.
Playing a healer role (Chloromancer) as a Mage class in Rift, for example, was incredibly fun, for me. Vanguard, similarly, had healing classes that required significantly more attention than "press this one key if someone gets low on health".
They have been fun to play in other games, hopefully they will be (as? more?) fun to play in Pantheon.
Riahuf22 said:Baldur said:So I was reading this forum and I keep seeing the question of should Clerics/ other healers have access to DPS abilities. Here is where I stand.
I am 26 years of age to give you an idea of the demographic and generation that I fall in. I have been gaming for 20 years (most of my life span) and in those 20 years, I have ALWAYS (yes always) mained a healer. I started off in EQ in 1999 as a mage, then I moved onto an enchanter before I finally settled into my role as a healer on my cleric. Since then I have played pretty much EVERY (yes every) MMO on the market, and I have experienced EVERY (yes every) healer archetype one could imagine. It probably should be noted here that while I main healers I also have experience with/playing pretty much every DPS archetype and tank archetype because I feel in order to understand your role as a healer you also need to know how the ins and outs of other classes. (Or long story I am cool and have no life).
I believe that regardless of class the healer's first and formost job is to heal, dispell allies, and buff. Now when you start talking about class differentiation I believe that different buffs, CC, and enemy debuffs come into play here. Note that I am not referring to dots in this instance when referring to debuffs.
Here is where I stand on the topic of healers having DPS abilities. Yes, I believe that healers should have DPS abilities because it adds to the class archetype and class immersion. However, I did not choose a healer class just so I could focus on DPSing (Unless that is how the class is designed to heal). Healers should not have high damage, be required to damage, nor should end game content be balanced around DPS output from healers. There are 3 major MMOs on the market (WoW, ESO, and FFXIV), all of these balance endgames around healer DPS. The worst of these 3 is FFXIV as fights are heavily scripted and there are some fights where healers end up DPSing 50-70% of the time, and the healing meta is determined by which healer has the most DPS output. I lost interest in ESO and FFXIV because of how healers are designed.
Pantheon is planning to have 3/4 group roles: Tanks, Healers, DPS/CC and group sizes of six players. Each player in that group should have a dedicated job to perform and in terms of healers, mobs should be designed to give healers very little downtime to cast DPS spells.
Yes I agree with this I don't believe a healer should feel forced to dps is a group setting, nor would I want them to because they should worry more but healing than killing something. I merely just want them.to have enough offense to where they don't feel handcuffed to the point that soloing is simply out of reach. But is your regards as in a group I believe that they could put the damage spells away, or most of then anyway, and cast your other spells to support your grp the way you class was designed to do.
And, I agree with this especially in the early game content where soloing should be easier. I don't think that it is fair to limit a person's ability to solo based on their class choice, but on the other hand, I also don't think that it is good to promote solo gameplay based on a person's class choice. For example, I can play WoW or Final Fantasy as a healer and take on elite mobs that would kill a DPS, or a tank for that matter, and hardly have any issue because I can heal myself. Granted I take them out more slowly than these other classes, but I don't need help. This is not good because tanks and healers are generally the lifeblood of the player community within a game. These are the classes that require groups to get stuff done, and when they can start soloing stuff grouping declines. When grouping declines player community declines, and when the player community declines the health of a game starts declining.
The stickiest thing in any game is not the gameplay it's self but the bonds that are formed between players, because at the end of the day this is what keeps people coming back. A personal example of this is I played WoW back in MOP and I HATED the game (can't stress that enough), however, I continued to play the game because I had an obligation to my guild as one of their primary healers and main recruitment officer for raids (and yeah it should be mentioned that I enjoyed pretty much everyone in this guild). But that obligation is what kept me playing a game that I HATED for about two years.
I think that if Pantheon is going to bring back player community, then everyone (regardless of class) needs to hit a point where they can't solo anymore. And this point needs to be unified across all classes to promote grouping. I don't necessarily think that you need a full group of 6 to do everything nor do I think that you should require a tank or healer for everything, but I think that there needs to be a point where everyone is like I need at least one other person to continue on. I think that Pantheon needs to start fostering grouping very early on around level 20ish because when you don't foster grouping and community early you end up with a player base like WoW. You get people who are very self-absorbed with the mentality of "what can you do for me" not "what can I do for you", you get the ninja looters who are out for themselves, and you get the people who are like "you guys just aren't progressing fast enough I'm going to find someone else". And yes someone could make the argument that you get this in any game and this is true. However, you get this a lot less when you make people start relying on others from early on.