Iksar said:Syrif said:Yes, I realize clerics, druids, and shamans have damage abilities lol. If you reread, I said it doesn’t make sense for clerics to do melee dps. Spell damage and melee dps are two totally different things Naunet. I’m not against the current game design and suggesting so is silly. I’ve only been playing Aradune’s games since 1999 :)
Well the current design looks like it leans toward clerics doing some melee DPS (which I think would be good for healer differentiation/flavor since the other two are spell DPS) given their higher AC/shields/mitigation potential and we already see:
Favor of the Order
Passive ability. Your successful melee attacks heal you for X% of the damage they deal.
Determined Strike
You strike your enemy with a sturdy blow, inflicting Physical damage plus additional Divine damage based on your Wisdom.
Searing Cudgel
A powerful melee attack that deals greater damage the longer you charge the attack before releasing. Undead targets will take additional Divine damage based on your Strength and Wisdom.
Obviously, I‘m referring to melee dps in the tank/monk/rogue/ranger (etc) sense. I imagine clerics will be able to hit mobs for small damage with their clubs just as they always have in mmo’s. Such small melee damage and spell abilities are fine, but consistent melee dps from a healer is not imo. Also: landing some ‘melee damage‘ vs consistent ‘melee dps’ are not necessarily the same thing. The abilities you quoted are designed for the chance of a cleric hitting a mob with its club. Melee dps falls in line with monks, rangers etc, but not for the cleric.
BamBam said: I hope to see lots of short term buffs. That is used by the support classes to increase atk speed by a lot but only for a short amount of time, reduce damage taken, damage Shields, proc effects, agro boosts, resist boosts, dodge boosts. And so on Some powerful spells that is usefull when thegrp is at100% hp and safe so they can spend their time on somthing els than dpsing.
Not gonna lie I hate short term buffs. Having to recast any buff is annoying. Actively casting debuffs on a mob is one thing but droping the duration of my haste down to 1:30 so it feels more engaging is stupid.
I think it all depends on how the classes are designed in the end. The cleric is usually heavy armored where as a priest/brother/Holy Monk is usually only a cloth wearing individual.
If the cleric is designed to have heavy armor than I think it makes total sense for their healing style to require mixing it up in melee with very short range but powerful heals, AoE heals and some form of blessings on the target that give an effect to the target of the mob or everyone hitting the mob that must be applied with their own weapon. The paladin on the other hand is much more a tank that increases their effective health through self-healing but not enough to heal through a group fight.
That being said I really don’t care what the EQ cleric, the WoW holy paladin, the 2nd edition priest, the 2nd edition cleric, the pathfinder cleric or any other form of healer could do. I just want the game play of the Pantheon cleric to fun and engaging and not a snooze fest.
BamBam said: @Eppe I'm talking about 10-20s duration buffs that has great effect but low duration. And a medium Cooldown like 1 min, so up time will be 10-20% ish. I always found it fun to counter abilities and provide that extra umf when dps pop their go ham Cooldown. Id rather add damage to my dps, than do dps my self. I'll play shaman so I'm gna do both in Pantheon witch is exiting.
When explained that way its not bad. I just hated how short of a cool down Haste had in EQ because if I had a DPS heavy group there went my mana bar every 4 minutes or so. It was a no brainer buff that didn't make anything more enjoyable.
Like a super buff for 20s that is on a 1-2 minute cool down I'd be all for.
fazool said:I am playing on the 20th anniversary slow progression server of EQ1 and currently in Classic (1999) everquest.
I am playing an Enchanter which is, of course, the ultimate grouping character. It is a little discouraging however that I can't go hunt where I want.
The travel didn't bother me at all. The inability to do something *I* wanted to do was a real discouragement and reminded me of the disappointment that is very real at times. So I rolled a Mage.
To be fair, I think you're simply pointing out an issue with EQ that Daybreak doesn't have the practical knowledge to solve or at least a problem that they don't want to spend the time, effort and money to solve. The game was built to be a visual version of a MUD or session of DND. You were meant to work with a lot of other players to accomplish your goals. Now, you have what? maybe 400,000 players subscribed across maybe 20 servers? They simply don't have the population centered on any of their servers. Sure, the mercs were a stop-gap measure to help alleviate some of that (not sure if they're on progression servers) but that was just a bandaid.
Syrif said:Iksar said:Syrif said:Yes, I realize clerics, druids, and shamans have damage abilities lol. If you reread, I said it doesn’t make sense for clerics to do melee dps. Spell damage and melee dps are two totally different things Naunet. I’m not against the current game design and suggesting so is silly. I’ve only been playing Aradune’s games since 1999 :)
Well the current design looks like it leans toward clerics doing some melee DPS (which I think would be good for healer differentiation/flavor since the other two are spell DPS) given their higher AC/shields/mitigation potential and we already see:
Favor of the Order
Passive ability. Your successful melee attacks heal you for X% of the damage they deal.
Determined Strike
You strike your enemy with a sturdy blow, inflicting Physical damage plus additional Divine damage based on your Wisdom.
Searing Cudgel
A powerful melee attack that deals greater damage the longer you charge the attack before releasing. Undead targets will take additional Divine damage based on your Strength and Wisdom.
Obviously, I‘m referring to melee dps in the tank/monk/rogue/ranger (etc) sense. I imagine clerics will be able to hit mobs for small damage with their clubs just as they always have in mmo’s. Such small melee damage and spell abilities are fine, but consistent melee dps from a healer is not imo. Also: landing some ‘melee damage‘ vs consistent ‘melee dps’ are not necessarily the same thing. The abilities you quoted are designed for the chance of a cleric hitting a mob with its club. Melee dps falls in line with monks, rangers etc, but not for the cleric.
That's unlikely going to be "useless club hitting spells", since pantheon is designed as an active skill limit, every skill should have it's shines, and drawbacks or else it's not even worth putting on bars.
By this I don't mean clerics should compete with melee DPS, but theses skills are probable worthy of their use in right conditions, either to slap out some bonus damage or for soloing, but not to the point they pale in comparison to any other damaging ability. The cleric will surely have less active damaging abilities or higher costs tied to damaging abilities, or lower offensive stats, that will ensure he remains far below a DPS in overall damage, but that doesn't mean :
1) His damaging abilities are weak and pityfull.
2) His place is not close to melee
3) He is worth only medding and throwing big heals from time to time.
There is a big gradient of diversity between the perma sitting cleric healer and the constant DPSing one, and clerics and shaman are already more spellcaster oriented, I think the cleric in full plate and shield deserve some close combat abilities or he better be in cloth like priests in wow.
MauvaisOeil said:There is a big gradient of diversity between the perma sitting cleric healer and the constant DPSing one, and clerics and shaman are already more spellcaster oriented, I think the cleric in full plate and shield deserve some close combat abilities or he better be in cloth like priests in wow.
Side note... we could really use a cloth-aesthetic healer. I love wearing robes, but druids are likely going to be focused on leather and shamans on light mail (even though they technically can wear cloth).
Naunet said:MauvaisOeil said:There is a big gradient of diversity between the perma sitting cleric healer and the constant DPSing one, and clerics and shaman are already more spellcaster oriented, I think the cleric in full plate and shield deserve some close combat abilities or he better be in cloth like priests in wow.Side note... we could really use a cloth-aesthetic healer. I love wearing robes, but druids are likely going to be focused on leather and shamans on light mail (even though they technically can wear cloth).
I'm hoping we see a bloodmage-esque healer as an expansion add at some point ;)
Cool thoughts Nephele and Naunet. I can certainly see a bloodmage-healer type class. I'd be for that too. What I can't see is a melee dps *primary* healer. I believe the hybrid Paladin will already have strong melee abilities and lesser healing spells (than say a Druid or Cleric).
Syrif said:Cool thoughts Nephele and Naunet. I can certainly see a bloodmage-healer type class. I'd be for that too. What I can't see is a melee dps *primary* healer. I believe the hybrid Paladin will already have strong melee abilities and lesser healing spells (than say a Druid or Cleric).
Don't think you're quite understanding what people are saying. No one has been saying cleric should be a hybrid dps/healer class.
Though I will add there are definitely ways to design a healing class where some of its core abilities are technically damage abilities. There are several fun examples of such a thing out there in the MMO-verse. There are just as many possibilities in healer design as there are varieties of tank or dps classes. A healer designed around building and spending combo points? A healer who debuffs and damages enemies for splash AoE and focused healing? A healer with a focus on micro-managing pets? A healer with different stances that alter how abilities function? A healer that focuses on shifting health around, supplemented by life drain or other similar mechanics? A melee-range healer with placeable healing/buff pools that excells in stacked situations?
Regardless, healers should generally all have at least a couple damage abilities, if only to give them some ability to function outside of a group situation. That's really all this thread was about, not turning cleric into a melee dps/healer hybrid.
Naunet said:Syrif said:Cool thoughts Nephele and Naunet. I can certainly see a bloodmage-healer type class. I'd be for that too. What I can't see is a melee dps *primary* healer. I believe the hybrid Paladin will already have strong melee abilities and lesser healing spells (than say a Druid or Cleric).
Don't think you're quite understanding what people are saying. No one has been saying cleric should be a hybrid dps/healer class.
Though I will add there are definitely ways to design a healing class where some of its core abilities are technically damage abilities. There are several fun examples of such a thing out there in the MMO-verse. There are just as many possibilities in healer design as there are varieties of tank or dps classes.
Cool :) I completely agree with you. A primary healer with some damage abilities (including spells), but not a hybrid dps/primary-healer.
Naunet said:Syrif said:Cool :) I completely agree with you. A primary healer with some damage abilities (including spells), but not a hybrid dps/primary-healer.Just for emphasis, this thread was not about turning cleric into a dps hybrid.
Just for further emphasis, I stated my opinion in addition to things I have read about over the years related to the topic of this thread. Keep in mind I joined the forums in February 2014, right after the KS. No reason why I can't state my opinion since it is relative to what I wrote about. ;)
@Naunet I’m not the one looking to argue here at the moment, but I will respond again. I stated something that I personally do not want to see in game (as in that’s my opinion, so I wrote on it). As I mentioned, I have been following the forums from the beginning. And as a matter of fact, I complimented one of your ideas in this thread lol. Too funny. Peace :)
bryanleo9 said: It is true, nowadays we see so many people wanting to play the dps/ best solo classes. I never understood why people would want this in a MMO game. Make the mobs so tough we need groups and need to work together would be a nice start.
From the most recent newsletter:
Ernest Scribner: Is solo viable to level max? Is there any solo content?
CP: Currently, there are no plans to design content specifically for solo players. It will be up to the players to find ways to solo within Pantheon and it will certainly be possible to do so, with some Classes being more adept at it than others. As we’ve said in the past, we are not discouraging solo play, we simply aren’t designing for it.
Syrif said:Nephele said:Pantheon is not EQ.
We all know that.
It is being made by the people who made and/or played EQ though.
You do realize this quote is from the Dev's themselves right? So they are still us this will have some eq qualities but will not feel like eq at the same time,which it shouldnt we alrdy have p99, it needs to be it own game and to think that it is made by eq devs/gamer means it going to feel like eq is flawed, for one their is a hot bar, we alrdy know that on a monk their is a ability that buffs another ability, so that means more than likely their is going to be a rotation or at least use best ability available. Their I'd so much different from the information we have been given to what eq is. Which is fine, in fact it's great, becuase like I said there are a lot of eq similarities like no hand holding, no ! To know their are quests, each encounter needs your attention or the group flatlines
Ya, I think we understand it is more about the con system and what mobs give exp. If, for example, the only mobs that gave exp were even cons or higher it would encourage people to group more than solo. As is, about anyone can kill low blue mobs solo for exp.
EppE said:I would specifically like to address making a healer "fun". Don't imo. I've seen games try to make healers more DPS centric in an effort to entice people to play them. Don't. Some people like playing whack-a-mole healing, most people don't. Don't redesign the class so that people who enjoy DPS feel the desire to play it.
Some people don't find healing fun, some people don't find CC fun. They find the numbers popping up while doing DPS fun. I prefer CC and Healing. I prefer it the way its done in older games.
I totally agree with your complaint though and something needs to be done to address it... but please don't redesign support classes.
I can agree with this. I love healing. Don't like playing most DPS classes and tank. I really dislike any playstyle that grants healing through DMG done. I just wanna throw out heals and save lives, exactly like you say. I love class fantasy healing and I wanna go cleric ALL the way. Spectacular point!
EppE - to the extent you are saying that healing classes need to be distinctly worse in DPS than DPS classes not just marignally worse I heartily agree.
On the other hand every class (including healers) should be at least somewhat competent by themselves. Every class should be able to explore and wander around without having to run in terror if they get too close to a single enemy about their own level.
No reason a helaer can't fight as well as a DPS class - the DPS will kill faster and end up half dead the healer will kill slowly and wind up at full health. Designed well the XP per minute will be identical for both.