This is an interesting idea in theory, but at the end of the day I think it is best they persist while not memmed because otherwise buff heavy classes become heavily restricted on what toolset they can bring to a group. Playing a buffbot wouldn't be as fun in my eyes as a character who can more actively partake in encounters.
Initially, I thought they should be removed. That way buffing wouldn't be mandatory but weighted against other options :
Should you really mem and haste buff the rogue if your group is caster heavy ? Id this strong dot better than a weak str buff you had 20 levels ago ?
It creates interesting patterns of decision, but ultimately I feel it wouldn't be manageable :
-if your buffer is LD or logged off, should buff retains ? ( alt buff bots exploit)
-if a random stranger buffs you on his way, but gets a group 5min later and unmem the buff are you suddently stripped of it ? ( low level indirect player killing exploit )
While it would have created strong layers of decision and strategy, I feel it would only work for GW1 style of games (instanced group content only) where your choices only concern your group. It would reduce the social aspect of the game while creating more drawbacks than benefits.
Thus, I think buff swapping should be a thing but their uptime and array should be balanced around mana cost more than anything. If you can't manage more than two buffs on your party before going OOM then swapping is not much of an issue.
zoltar said: ... My point is that constantly switching buffs in and out of your skillbar circumvents the point of having a limited number of skills. ...
No-one is circumventing anything. The inability to change or re-memorize spells only applies when in combat. Some players will have buffs on their in combat hotbar, some won't.
It's their choice, sure, but circumvention implies cleverly avoiding something, when that's not the case at all with the current in-combat restriction.
There are no such restrictions, out of combat, with the current public design goals.
Agree they need to persist , Fondest memories was buffing people . If I buff others and happen to change my skill sets ( grouped ) is it fair all the buffs I gave out to others get removed just because idecided to change my skills ?
Bad game design if you ask me .
To be honest i think buffs should last longer then 20 mins or 30 mins . (eq) great . people use to want certain buffs from certain classes , then off to explore with their friends all fast n buffed .
Is not buffing people/helping others just part of what we all want . " Community matters ". By making them go away once the casters changes skillsets , makes none of it matter ( why Bother with buffs SOW or anysuch things ) .
Keno Monster said:How does giving twice the number of slots make that decision more important?
I'm just going to focus on this point, because I can answer it. The rest of the stuff we may just have to agree to disagree on.
What I am arguiing for is the removal of a way to bypass having to choose between abilities and compensating for the restriction by giving players more choices to make.
For example, lets say players have 10 primar slots (down from 12) and 6 secondary slots. Lets say I'm on a shaman, and I get to choose among the following skills for my 6 secondary slots:
1- Rez
2- Attack speed buff
3- Str/Stam buff
4- Poison/Disease resistance buff
5- AC buff
6- Self wisdom buff
7- Mob agro/assist radius debuff
8-Fire/Nature resist buff
9- Poison/Disease resistance & health regen buff
10- Attack speed buff
11- Poison/Disease cleanse
12- Teleport to previous location
So TLDR: the answer is that you're taking what are essentially non-decisions (i.e. prioritizing a massive group heal over something like a wisdom buff) and turning them into actually relevant decisions by splitting skills into primary and secondary skills.
Picking 6 of those skills listed will be a touch choice that affects my character significantly. Letting me cast all those buffs and swap them out doesn't present me with any choices, only tedium.
vjek said:zoltar said: ... My point is that constantly switching buffs in and out of your skillbar circumvents the point of having a limited number of skills. ...No-one is circumventing anything. The inability to change or re-memorize spells only applies when in combat. Some players will have buffs on their in combat hotbar, some won't.
It's their choice, sure, but circumvention implies cleverly avoiding something, when that's not the case at all with the current in-combat restriction.There are no such restrictions, out of combat, with the current public design goals.
If i'm benefitting from 18 of my skills when I'm supposed to be limited to 12 skills, how is that not circumventing the limitaiton?
Also people saying they should persist because I want to buff people clearly didn't read the post.
I would definitely prefer harsh limitations on buffs. Buffs expiring if you take them off your hot-bar and limits on the number of people you can have buffed would be awesome. Being able to have 100 buffs just gets factored into the status quo and I dislike the tedium of buff maintenance. That said, it's not a big deal for me regardless.
zoltar said:Keno Monster said:How does giving twice the number of slots make that decision more important?I'm just going to focus on this point, because I can answer it. The rest of the stuff we may just have to agree to disagree on.
What I am arguiing for is the removal of a way to bypass having to choose between abilities and compensating for the restriction by giving players more choices to make.
For example, lets say players have 10 primar slots (down from 12) and 6 secondary slots. Lets say I'm on a shaman, and I get to choose among the following skills for my 6 secondary slots:
1- Rez
2- Attack speed buff
3- Str/Stam buff
4- Poison/Disease resistance buff
5- AC buff
6- Self wisdom buff
7- Mob agro/assist radius debuff
8-Fire/Nature resist buff
9- Poison/Disease resistance & health regen buff
10- Attack speed buff
11- Poison/Disease cleanse
12- Teleport to previous location
So TLDR: the answer is that you're taking what are essentially non-decisions (i.e. prioritizing a massive group heal over something like a wisdom buff) and turning them into actually relevant decisions by splitting skills into primary and secondary skills.
Picking 6 of those skills listed will be a touch choice that affects my character significantly. Letting me cast all those buffs and swap them out doesn't present me with any choices, only tedium.
Looking at your selection, there are a bunch you do not need on your hotbar at all times. Buffs for one thing. Those are going to have significant durations which, if you've watched the streams have timer outlines, you can quickly memorize the spell needed (between fights of course) reapply then replace it with another spell.
Also, why would you keep up your teleport spell? The last thing you want in a group is your priest panicing and teleporting away and letting the group die. Had you stayed, you could win, and if you don't, at least you're all together for the corpse run.
Vandraad said:Looking at your selection, there are a bunch you do not need on your hotbar at all times. Buffs for one thing. Those are going to have significant durations which, if you've watched the streams have timer outlines, you can quickly memorize the spell needed (between fights of course) reapply then replace it with another spell.
Also, why would you keep up your teleport spell? The last thing you want in a group is your priest panicing and teleporting away and letting the group die. Had you stayed, you could win, and if you don't, at least you're all together for the corpse run.
Yea, but the point is that you have buffs be removed if you remove the spell, so you would need to keep them slotted to keep the effect.
Shaman has a spell where they can mark a location, and teleport to it. So you could theretically come up with some interesting uses for it in combat with the shaman teleporting in the same viscinity as their group.
X shaman casted slow on mob , then dies . ( theroretically ) its off the timer and skillset . should all mobs that were slowed lose the slow ? I personally feel if you cast a spell its good for whatever the length of timer it is . regardless if you change spells or die . you casted it , it landed . it took effect .
Shea said:X shaman casted slow on mob , then dies . ( theroretically ) its off the timer and skillset . should all mobs that were slowed lose the slow ? I personally feel if you cast a spell its good for whatever the length of timer it is . regardless if you change spells or die . you casted it , it landed . it took effect .
I agree that having buffs/debuffs having their effects cancelled if you remove the spell or the caster dies is an incredibly poor decision. It only hurts the game, not helps it in any way. But if VR were to implement such a ridiculous mechanic, then I want all damage done by any melee or caster to be recinded if they die during a fight. Your wizard did 9k damage then died? Sucks to be your group because the mob just instantly regained 9k in HP. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.
vjek said:zoltar said: ... My point is that constantly switching buffs in and out of your skillbar circumvents the point of having a limited number of skills. ...No-one is circumventing anything. The inability to change or re-memorize spells only applies when in combat.
We don't even know if that will be a restriction at all.
Buffs persisiting through swapping spells around is ideal. Usually when you cast a buff the character doesn't need to concentrate anymore, thus no reason to keep it up on the spell bar. However, this obviously applys to channel type of spells where you need them on your hotbar to cast. Also, if charm is a channel type spell then it would need to be on the hotbar at all times to, if they decide to go that route.
I like restricted spell slots mainly because it opens the possibilities of clickies being sought after and important in the game. If I can get a thorns clickie on my druid, then I don't need to memorize it and keep it on my hotbar. This opens a whole new meta up for different gear sets not just in resistance, but in extra spells you want for certain fights.
Frankly, I've come around to having no restriction on spell/ability slots. It doesn't seem like a fun mechanic to have to deal with. I might be the most "hardcore oldschool" whatever person here, but I don't think groups should be punished in combat because one person mis clicked and memorized banish undead instead of banish elemental.
Keno Monster said:vjek said:zoltar said: ... My point is that constantly switching buffs in and out of your skillbar circumvents the point of having a limited number of skills. ...No-one is circumventing anything. The inability to change or re-memorize spells only applies when in combat.
We don't even know if that will be a restriction at all.
Watch the streams, you'll see several instances were someone tried to change spells in combat and were prevented from doing so. Devs commented about it being designed that way. You commit to a fight with whatever you have on your spellbar at the time. Better hope it is the right set of spells.
Yes they should persist - there's no logical reason why they shouldn't. The channeling for the spell has occured, mana has been used, the spell has been cast and landed and you are able to now cast another spell. If you dot or debuff a mob and then remove the spell, does the DoT/Debuff fade also? It's less realistic that a buff/spell that is cast upon a person/mob fades because a spell is removed from a hotbar. The only way it could make sense is the caster continues to channel the buff/spell for the continous 30 minutes and can't cast another spell while doing so - I don't think anyone would like that solution.
I also think you should be able to memorize spells in combat. I disagree with that design decision by VR -like EQ it should come with a consequence of increased agro while sitting in combat, but you should have the freedom to attempt to rememorize the spells.
Many "oh crap" moments occured to me while playing EQ and other MMOs to a lesser extent by having the wrong spell memorized, but you shouldn't be punished extremely while in a group by not being able to change out a spell (such as an Evac for a druid/wizard). I do think the spell slots should still be limited though as it punishes soloers more than anything else - in a group, you "should" be able to swap out your spells still. and it provides yet another incentive to group even though it is/was often overlooked.
Also, like Keno, I'd consider myself an extremely hardcore/ "oldschool" type gamer but asking for buffs to fade on a limited hotbar is increasing tedium for the sake of it. You'd reduce the ability for a caster to have variety/options in combat and ultimately would sacrifice using many buffs in order to be able to keep a full hotbar of combat related buffs. Or, you would see people complaining enough that VR would either A. revert to persistent buffs, or B. dumb down buffing to include a one-buff catch all solution.
TLDR: I don't like the idea at all, it's not logical, and buffs should persist.