Well, this topic is largely about what the title says. Over the years, I have found it not just silly, but sort of immersion breaking that in MMO's I can walk up to a fire elemental and kill it by blasting it with a fireball.
Wait... WHAT? Take THAT fire demon - more FIRE!
And so this discussion. I'm hoping that Pantheon brings with it some smart spell type usage. Think of it, perhaps, as spells and abilities working like factions. High Elves hate Dark Elves. Dark Elves hate high elves. Gnomes are tolerated but not liked by either High Elves or Dark Elves.
In that same way, I'm hoping to see similar complexity in how you might choose abilities for a given encounter. To keep it simple, I'll use elementals for the purposes of this discussion.
- Am I killing an air elemental? Then fire is strongest because fire consumes air as it burns.
- Am I killing a fire elemental? Then water is strongest because it douses fire.
- Am I killing an earth elemental? Then air is strongest because it erodes earth.
- Am I killing a water elemental? Then earth is strongest because it absorbs water.
In other words, not a simplistic "fire is best against air, air is best against fire." Rather, more rich differentiation like we all want in factions.
Now - what do I think should happen when you do use that fireball on that fire elemental? I think it should be more or less like a taunt - a way to increase agro. Here's how I envision the interaction:
1) You come across that fire elemental I mentioned at the start of this post
2) You launch your fireball at the fire elemental like I mentioned at the start of this post
3) The fire elemental looks at you with scorn and says "You DARE use my own kind against ME???"
Taunt - pure, simple, taunt.
And so I think I would have (minimally) spells and abilities designed something like this:
Spell: FIREBALL
Damage vs Air based mobs: Spell power * 1.25
Damage vs other mobs: Spell power * 1.00
Damage vs Fire based mobs: None
Hate modifiers: Increases hate by X when used on fire based mobs
Given thought, I'd flesh the whole thing out considerably - but I wanted to throw the bare bones out here for discussion if folks want to discuss it :)
We need to keep in mind that Pantheon is being created as a spiritual successor to EQ and VG, so while I understand you guys are anxious to not have any easy-mode modern features or less thought out mechanics introduced, please remember we don't want that either, which is why we are making Pantheon based on EQ/VG!
In Vanguard, using Fire on a Fire based mob would heal it and produce more aggro, same with the other elemental types and since Pantheon is going down the path of elements and climates actually doing damage and being important, I think it is safe to say we will do our best to develop a system that not only incorporates the EQ/VG mechanics and deep spell/abilities that react to their opposing or equal elements but also one that builds on them to best suit this game.
My personal view is:
- Fire should heal Fire and buff it to make it stronger!
- Fire should be useless or do minimal damage against Water or Air
- Fire should do extra damage against humanoid and animal like creatures.
- Wind if used against Fire, should enrage fire and produce more aggro
- Water used on Fire would most likely do extra damage or weaken the Fire element.
That sounds good!
Will there also be special weaknesses for monsters vs. certain melee types? Like "crushing works well against skeletons, piercing not so much". Kind of old school...I would love to see such rules implemented in the games. And this should not be mentioned when you look at a weapon, instead this should be something you learn through game lore (talking to trainer, or reading ingame books etc).
In my job we deal with explosives allot. The first thing that is noticeable is the fire because its flashy. What is hard to see without slow motion cameras is how the percussion (shock wave) does so much of the actual damage.
Does a block of ice fired from a cannon do damage to a ice wall? Absolutely
Are we to assume by Op train of thought that a rock ball fired at a rock golem would do no damage (or heal it) simply because they are made from the same stuff? That is like saying a iron golem would get healed by being attacked with iron weapons...
If my magical fire is stronger then the fire creature it would still hurt it in my opinioin...
The way a friend of mine here at work who plays MMO's said it was "Oh, I don't know - if someone got a bag of flesh and started pounding me with it, I imagine it would hurt."
But he still saw the point - which was: Make it interesting by adding some thought to casting. This type of ability works well against that type of mob, but not so well against others, etc...
Kilsin said:
- Fire should heal Fire and buff it to make it stronger!
I agree ! I remember Vanguard having this mechanic and fighting various fire creatures and each time it was about dead someone would fire nuke it and heal it and the leader would be like NOOOOO !!!! You are healing it ! LOL I like mechanics such as this.
I like the topic, but wouldn't Earth be the ultimate anti-fire magic? because if you use water on a fire and dont use enough the water evaporates and becomes Oxygen which feeds the fire.
use earth to douse a fire and dont get enough the first time, just need to make another trip with some more earth!
I'm not married to what the opposing forces are - just that I would find the game play more compelling if there is opposing magic that is complex and not straight line. Also that I think it would be interesting to have some undesirable impact (for you) of using fire on fire, water on water, etc...
I think the end result is that it makes it so that you constantly have to consider ability choice in the same way you will have to consider gear choice in Pantheon.
From what Kilsin says - it sounds like they likely have this sort of thing in mind... but still fun to discuss - might get some very good ideas flowing, etc...
As long as classes have some meaningful alternatives when it comes to resistances. If my bread and butter is fire damage and the dungeon is fire based does that mean im useless? Not sure at the moment how classes will play out but I like the idea of de buffs. Malo and stuff would lower resists so something that normally hard to use gets a little bit better at landing.