Thought this could be a good time to bring this up with the official site getting glowups and whatnot. So as far as the class matrix implies and i've not seen anything that goes against or so, but leaving Ogres with only four classes available seem really weirdly constricting, especially in seemingly nonsensical ways as i'll get into.
So currently they seem to only be planned on having Tanks (warrior and dire) and healers (Druid and shaman). I think two other classes could be added to the planned class matrix with very little if any thematic or lore combatative reasons.
First off, and this one is kinda irky due to the fact that they already have Druids available, why not Rangers? All the reasons to justify Ranger are already justified with both Warrior and Druid already being available to Ogres, and this would give them an open Damage role to use.
Second, might be subjective here but I think Bard would be easily justified also and would give them a Support role open to them. Bards and by extent music and song is one of those very open and universal things for cultures and races, where it may only be contradictory to add to the most extreme cases, which is why I get Bard is unavailable to Gnomes and Skar. But Ogres? Ogres seemingly are not the stereotypical super primitive brutes one may expect, and EVEN then I could see cavemen having some sort of drummer versions of Bards.
By all means though if there are reasons either classes may not fit in or so i'd be interested in hearing/knowing. Though thats it for now for my thoughts on this. Cheers anyone for reading and partaking of this person's insanity!
I totally can see Ogre Rangers for sure. Does not seem like it would be too out of character for the Race.
Bards also could be a possibility. It would be understandable that each Race would have their own cultural style of Music, Poetry and story telling. But with this viewpoint you could try to argue that all Races should be able to be Bards.
It really depends though on how they end up implementing Bards and their form of magic. As a control class it may be more in line with complex spell based magic systems like the Wizard, Enchanter, and Necromancer which might make it less likely to fit the race. Whereas Druid and Shaman being more Nature and Ancestory based work better for Ogre's.
Indeed, with Bards it depends a lot on just how they will end up. Though if based on their current Class/Race matrix, it comes off as Bards being one of those "universal" classes, like Warriors and Rogues, with other races such as Halflings that do not partake in the more complex magic classes still are pinned down for Bard action.
If their plan is for Bards to be more "universal" and such in their application, it just makes Ogres being ticked off and being grouped up with races like Gnomes and Skar just kinda...odd. I think anyhow
I agree. I don't see why Ogres couldn't be rangers and if Dwarves can be Bards, why couldn't Ogres (assuming that their power comes from motivating their allies through rally/war cries or otherwise inspirational/rousing combat magic). I think of a scene in a movie (Mad Max Fury Road) when I picture an Ogre Bard (maybe with war drums instead of an electric guitar though lol). But the idea is charging into battle with the sole intention of violence:
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/NeXZjO3f424
This is just my thoughts on why some of these Races have fewer class choices.
It's generally understood that less players choose the races that they believe to be the Ugly and/or Evil ones. Yes there are some players who choose them specifically because they are the Ugly ones, but statistically we know that Ogre's will be played by less players than races like Elves and such, as they are in every other MMO.
So game Dev's know that these races will represent fewer of their subscribers, and so they will tend to want to spend less of their budget developing content for those races. With less classes they don't need to create quest lines and story arcs for those classes in those home cities and areas. Therefore, even if it may seem logical lore wise for Ogre's to have more classes available to them, the Dev's will be hesitant to add those classes simply because it means they need to invest in all sorts of content to support those classes which will impact far fewer of their playerbase.
And in fact just by splitting up the few players who will choose Ogre's into more classes will mean even fewer are playing any one specific class and thus playing through the content supporting those classes in that area.
Now while this may not impact a huge studio as much, with VR being such a small team they are even less likely to create more work for themselves by opening up more classes to the races they know will be played less.
We can then just be hopeful that the content they do create for Ogre's and the classes they can play will be really fun and interesting and make it worth while for those players who do enjoy playing these less popular races.
I get your thoughts and such, i've even seen MMOs where its super obvious they do not care about anything but 1 or two of the races they have around and so.
While I do not expect the same amount of attention as the mass appeal races, I do think it would be important for them to still show attention and care to the lesser popular ones. If nothing else, ignoring and letting those races become "sub class citizens" among players will only make less people play them.
As for the possibility of the Ogre playerbase being "split" because of too many choice, on the topic of this...topic, I think the results would only be for more possible ogres to come about. Since we are talking about two roles that are currently not planned/unavailable to them. Anyone that would want to play those roles would have to abandon the race entirely.
I may be naive, dumb or so, though even if a race only exists as a minority I still wish for such groups or races to be able to function autonomously in the game if they so wish, which would atleast require one of reach role available to them. Ogres and Gnomes are currently the only ones who would be unable to be so, though for gnomes, their case is seems to be very intentionally so if I am to assume? Like, them only being clothies/light classes or something? Though I am not a gnome expert or so.
Well at the very least we do not want another TERA/Elin situation to come up yeah? haha
While I do not expect the same amount of attention as the mass appeal races, I do think it would be important for them to still show attention and care to the lesser popular ones. If nothing else, ignoring and letting those races become "sub class citizens" among players will only make less people play them.
Yes, I do not think VR will ignore these races. I think they will build out the quests and lore and such just as thoroughly for the classes that they do have. So the players who choose to play them won't feel like they are getting a lesser experience. I'm just saying that with less overall classes for a race, that's less overall quest/lore lines they need to build out.
As for the possibility of the Ogre playerbase being "split" because of too many choice, on the topic of this...topic, I think the results would only be for more possible ogres to come about. Since we are talking about two roles that are currently not planned/unavailable to them. Anyone that would want to play those roles would have to abandon the race entirely.
This I agree with. It would be nice if they at least gave one dps option to Ogre. Especially since dps is the most common role. Ranger does seem like the most obvious choice, and I think you could make an arguement for Rogue too. I know this seems odd since Rogues are all about sneaking around and Ogre's seem to shout 'bull in a china shop' but just because one is Large in stature does not mean one cannot be Roguish in nature. Even EQ had Barbarian Rogues and they were a Large race too.
though even if a race only exists as a minority I still wish for such groups or races to be able to function autonomously in the game if they so wish, which would atleast require one of reach role available to them.
One could guess that the plan over at VR is for the Ogre to be relatively close (somewhere in the middle) to the Skar and Dark Myr races on their continent so as to facilitate grouping.
I'm against the Ogre Ranger because I can't see them being at all stealthy and rangers are a bit stealthy. I am all for Ogre Bards as I can see the big ugly brutish drum beaters plodding through a dungeon passage. With some background in music being part of the VR team a lean into the music of the bard would be wonderful, down the line as I understand Bards will be added later. (Also I want to be a ranger and more rangers would dilute my feeling special and I am a modest and delicate little ego in a beautiful body with a razor sharp mind so I don't want to see an ogre ranger thank you. )
Sneaky and stealthy? I dunno if there have been other information thrown aboot, but i've not seen anything that translates to sneaky or stealthy playstyles on the Ranger. They are stated to wear chain armor, are able to use most weapons and have a bunch of "naturey" abilities and passive on them. Such as outdoor movement, commanding random animals to attack, and setting traps. Their passive "momentum" resource even seem to fall into a more steady DPS playstyle rather than any surprise attacks or so. They just come off as warriors with less armor but animal/nature stuff and more ranged damage. Which is why I see them as being a perfect Ogre DPS class.
If there have been stuff about sneaks and stealths on rangers i've missed tho, i'd be more than happy to see and read over it
Looking at the class list, if I was a dev I would let Ogre have: Dire Lord, Druid, Ranger, Shaman & Warrior.
Druid and Ranger are arguable but not far fetched. Otherwise Ogre's would only have 3 classes and that's just not enough for any 1 race. Unfortunately ppl will use this to campaign for insanity like Ogre enchanters & bards.
I would not quite put ogre bards on the same level of insanity as ogre enchanters. Though it is dealing with murky waters since we know much less about what bards will be like.
If Bards would turn out as more chain/medium armor wearing fighters, similarily to Rangers, then i'd say they are on the same arguability as Rangers are.
If they would turn out to become full robe wearing casters or light armor wearers that are just DnD style casters, then sure its a lot less arguable.
What gear they can wear is more or less irrelevant, it's entirely an RP/lore distinction. Bard's are information/knowledge seeking, charismatic magical performers, team playing jacks of all trades. None of these describe Ogre's, unless VR bastardizes the definition beyond all recognition. An Ogre banging a war drum is no more a Bard than a Warrior with a spellbook, a wizard.
That is mostly just the DnD bard. Being a spell caster able to specialize to the party's needs and about knowledge/information. The only version that would be bastardized by VR going in a different direction is the DnD version and atleast I do not think VR should be completely handicapped and live up to just one image of the bard as it has been presented
Them having heavier armor comes with the implication that the bard would be much less of a magical class and more of a martial class. Such as the Vanguard bard that was mostly a light-rogue with support music.
It's the bard from nearly every fantasy game and show ever made. Even the the top 3 dictionaries do not describe anything an Ogre would consider, here's dictionary.com:
noun
a person who composed and recited epic or heroic poems, often while playing the harp, lyre, or the like.
one of an ancient Celtic order of composers and reciters of poetry.
Heavy armor only implies they might be using Everquest as inspiration (had heavy armor and were borderline useless in melee). Even if they go with a Vanguard bard theme, it still doesn't describe something Ogre's would entertain, as they can't be rogue's either.... People should not be able to make these one in a million Drizzt wannabe outlier characters, that 99% of Ogre's would kill on sight.
I do not see how the dictionary definition does not support Ogre Bards, because if anything it just makes it more arguable.
Ogres are not portrayed as some super unintelligent cavemen archetypes in Pantheon, they'd still have more than welcome room for those who would tell and spread their tales through music and stories. ESPECIALLY if said bards would also be a boon in battle, they'd be similarily tolerated as Druids and Shaman.
If they'd be so absolutely primitive or have a culture so extreme Bards would have no place, then it could be argued stuff like Warriors would be far too "sophisticated or advanced" for them.
Because there's nothing in Ogre lore that remotely describes them as poets or composers. They are a race of war.
Enchanters would also be a boon in battle, correct? By your logic Ogre's should have no class restrictions, as every class is useful in battle to some degree.
I said this three posts ago:
RedGang said:Unfortunately ppl will use this to campaign for insanity like Ogre enchanters & bards.
Now you're making me rethink Druid and Ranger, just because of how quickly this gets out of hand. But if you actually view Bard and Warrior as having similar levels of sophistication, we'll just have to agree to disagree.
Stalking prey through the brush seems to me a stealthy activity and that feels very ranger like, the Ogre is an odd fit from my perch. The description of the Ogre is heavy and big. On the ranger it's vaulting and leap that trends imply nimble and dexterous imagined play style, it feels off, way off to have a hulking leap and vaulting mass of Ogre.
But I have little difficulty imagining an Ogre with drums or some other percussion instrument, wood block maybe, telling a tale of some past Ogre who accomplished some deeds of legend. They could have a rhyming dictionary passed down from generation to generation. Plus if you had a group of Bards, there is your bass tone.
Also, I have to admit if feel like in a schoolyard pickup if my Halfling Ranger is standing next to an Ogre Ranger I'm going to look like a pipsqueak and my ego can't take that kind of a blow, I'm a delicate little dandy.
StoneFish said:Stalking prey through the brush seems to me a stealthy activity and that feels very ranger like, the Ogre is an odd fit from my perch. The description of the Ogre is heavy and big. On the ranger it's vaulting and leap that trends imply nimble and dexterous imagined play style, it feels off, way off to have a hulking leap and vaulting mass of Ogre.
But I have little difficulty imagining an Ogre with drums or some other percussion instrument, wood block maybe, telling a tale of some past Ogre who accomplished some deeds of legend. They could have a rhyming dictionary passed down from generation to generation. Plus if you had a group of Bards, there is your bass tone.
Also, I have to admit if feel like in a schoolyard pickup if my Halfling Ranger is standing next to an Ogre Ranger I'm going to look like a pipsqueak and my ego can't take that kind of a blow, I'm a delicate little dandy.
This is the exact problem with these debates. You are interested in halfing ranger, so you don't want unstealthy Ogre Rangers stomping all over the lore. But you're perfectly fine passing Ogre's off as musical composers because they can clumsily bang on a drum. Who cares about the elven bards who want the class to retain a shred of credibility.
Yes we can justify every class/race combo if we try hard enough. The point is to allow the combos that best fit with that races lore and/or culture.
RedGang said:This is the exact problem with these debates. You are interested in halfing ranger, so you don't want unstealthy Ogre Rangers stomping all over the lore. But you're perfectly fine passing Ogre's off as musical composers because they can clumsily bang on a drum. Who cares about the elven bards who want the class to retain a shred of credibility.Yes we can justify every class/race combo if we try hard enough. The point is to allow the combos that best fit with that races lore and/or culture.
Personally I HATE the current trend of "any race any class", or a universal class that can do any/everything.
If you're playing an MMO to min-max or solo you're playing for the wrong reason. There are tons of single-players games out there.
It's about building a team/guild of players with unique strengths/skills/weaknesses and working together to accomplish things you simply can not otherwise accomplish.
AND meeting and getting to know people you'd otherwise never meet/know.
Odd this whole "races should not be able to play everything" talk is coming into a thread about the race that is looking to be able play the absolute fewest things, to such an extreme degree its a combat/war oriented race that does not even have a single Damage Focused class available to it. Meanwhile there's crickets and silence about things like Hunams being able to play EVERYTHING despite there not really being any lorewise reason for it.
Heck, there's talks and even stuff showing about some classes being the or people wanting them to be "Master of everything", but crickets and silence there too.
Might want to save that kind of talk in the threads about Hunams or those classes and the people requesting that sort of stuff instead of beating the Ogre while its down
Traditionally the main advantage of the human is flexibility/adaptability.
So, yes, they are the race that can "do it all".
But at the same time they also can't do it "as well" as a race that has inherent advantages that make them "better" at one class or another.
Nor do they have an inability to be this or that class because the same racial advantages (and racial mindset/culture) mean this or that class is essentially nonexistent within that race.
It's claimed ogres lack options.
Is there a racial/cultural reason why this or that class isn't available?
Traditionally ogres are seen a big, strong, physically resilient, somewhat clumsily, and dumb.
So an ogre "rogue" makes little sense. SURE they can be a brigand or a thug, but a catburgler? Pickpocket?
"Traditionally" how? Based on one or two other former games? Only one I can think of at the top of my head where Hunams are allowed to be anything would maybe be D&D or something. In the case of MMOs most do not treat Hunams as some demigods but have limitations set on them, such as EQ, Vanguard and even World of Warcraft. Even if there were a lot history tying it to be so, it would not mean Pantheon would need to follow such thing and do it's own thing.
As for ogres, they have not been described as either clumsy or dumb with Pantheon. Though rogues can be excused out due to their focus on combat and clan warfare, it could perhaps be seen as dishonorable or any such thing. Other classes, such as Rangers, perhaps even Monks, do not have much of an explanation floating around right now as to why.