I wanted to bring a topic up for community discussion. My guild's been talking about this a little bit recently and I think it's something worth a larger thread here.
First, let me say that one of the things that drew me to Pantheon was the idea that travel would be meaningful and that where you start in the world would lead you down a differnet content path. I'm tired of games that funnel everyone into the same content, whether that's right from the start or right after you finish the newbie zone. I like the idea of a halfling having a completely different journey through the level progression than a gnome might, and a dark myr having a different journey from either of those. I also like the idea that crossing the world won't be easy, and that you won't be able to just blip from Thronefast over to Skarhold in a few minutes (faction notwithstanding).
However, separate content paths and meaningful travel come with a challenge. What do you do when your friends pick a different race from you? What if it's a *very* different race, that starts on a completely different continent?
Back in 1999-era EQ, it didn't matter. The vast majority of us started games on our own, and we made our friends in game - people we met and played with along the way. So yeah, we could make that run from Qeynos to Freeport or through Butcherblock to the docks, but there wasn't a lot of pressure to do so. But by the time Pantheon releases, many of us will have 20 years of gaming under our belts. We won't come to Pantheon alone. We'll bring our friends and guildmates, in some cases our husbands, wives, or children with us. And we will want to play with those people.
So, how easy or hard should it be for players who start off as different races to meet up and adventure together? And what are the consequences of that choice?
Should the game keep it hard so that it takes a serious time investment, and not a little luck (because you have to cross dangerous areas) to make it from one starting city to another at low level unscathed?
Should the game try to funnel people together in the mid levels in some sort of hub locations?
Should the game allow some sort of fast travel between starting cities, with the knowlege that it might take away from the concept of "making the run" and having travel feel meaningful?
Would love to hear everyone's thoughts and opinions on the subject.
My friends and me have been discussing this as well, but we have come to the conclusion that we have no problem playing without all of us together for a couple of weeks if necessary until we can get together. This wasn't a difficult decision, because in almost all of the MMOs we've played together for the past few years, playing together didn't really buy much anyway until it was time to do dungeons. We have no problem playing apart for a short time until we can get together and that way everyone can play exactly what they want to play.
If this is like EQ, then people will eventually come together in hub-like areas. For example, wood-elves, high-elves and dwarves generally ended up in Butcherblock. Humans (Freeport), dark elves and halflings generally ended up in the West Commonlands or the deserts. Trolls and ogres generally ended up in the deserts at the opposite end of the humans.
Also, going with EQ as a reference again, getting from a city to a nearby city at level one generally wasn't terribly dangerous as long as you stuck to roads and such. And if you did so at level 4 or 5 (which could be obtained after a couple hours of play) you could get to nearby cities pretty easily. Crossing large areas of the world would be dangerous though.
Yeah this is a good question and something that I've been thinking about as well. There are definitely tradeoffs when it comes to fast travel. It would be interesting to allow a one time port at lvl 10 or something similar to allow players to group up in a city together. But that comes with a break in immersion.
As long as there is a reasonably safe road network I think I would prefer to just force players to travel the world to unite. Let friends use the first few levels of the game to experience different areas, different classes, etc. then choose a place to adventure together that's a bit more informed by experience.
I suspect, just a guess mind you. The housing will follow more like what they created in Vanguard (the same guys made that game).
It will not be racial.
There will be designated housing areas with X number of plots to build on, outside of any aggro places for any races. Many housing areas will be on islands that have no other function.
You and friends can all buy plots all next to each other if you like, or even around a guild hall location.
In vanguard if you belonged to a guild, and they had a guild hall, it gave you an additional recall spot.
In vanguard housing required a lot of resources, and crafters with special skills to make said resources. Guild halls were a much, much bigger challenge. But fun nonetheless.
Housing was nice for friends as they could give each other access, and it greatly expanded your storage space. A big deal for harvesters.
Nephele said:
Should the game keep it hard so that it takes a serious time investment, and not a little luck (because you have to cross dangerous areas) to make it from one starting city to another at low level unscathed?
Yes, meaningful travel is important
Should the game try to funnel people together in the mid levels in some sort of hub locations?
No, we know there will be no "hubs" for X lvl range
Should the game allow some sort of fast travel between starting cities, with the knowlege that it might take away from the concept of "making the run" and having travel feel meaningful?
No, we know there will not be fast travel between the starting cities.
I would like to state that I absolutely do not want there to be “hubs” where everyone meets in the midlevel. That makes the game feel pretty linear. Now having multiple zones that are spread across the world that mid levels will group and meet at is slightly different and totally find imo.
Its not out of the question, I beleive that races that may be aligned to each other have the potiental to start in another capital city and not be culture locked. (I could totally be wrong though). I just don’t see the potiental for there to be ogres or skars per say in a town of lawful good humans.
Keep the meaningful travel and explore a little!
Really good topic; I'm glad you brought it up.
First, I definitely don't think the game should try to funnel people into hub locations. I think it's much better to make a world for the world's sake and let players create their own hubs wherever they want. Game-intended hubs put the players on rails and lead to a themepark sort of experience, and that's what VR, to their everlasting credit, is trying to avoid.
One of my absolute favorite parts of EQOA was that the different races started in different cities strewn throughout the world, and you had to make an arduous journey to other cities in order to meet up with the other races. In my opinion, the fun of this feature would be well worth the temporary inconvenience of not being able to play with friends at first, because you would still be able to meet up before too long and adventure together at that point. I think it can even be a fun challenge to group up with friends who are in a different part of the game world and then try to meet up with them face to virtual face.
Also, while some sort of fast travel would probably be necessary in a game this big, I really hope the player will be required to walk to the travel points one time first. I want to be able to experience the danger of traveling the world under my own power before being given the option to bypass parts of it. And even then, I think the travel system should be limited enough that you still have to do a fair amount of running on foot.
In short, I'm definitely in favor of features (or lack thereof) that make the world a bigger place, even if it leads to some temporary inconvenience in terms of grouping with friends. IMO, it just makes it all the more fun once you finally meet up with them!
From remembered experience in EQ Classic and recently in EQ P99 the problem is not so much joining up at low level (yes, it's dangerous and takes a long time, but can be great fun!) but that when you get there you don't have enough resources (some or all of having no trainer, no spell vendor, no basic vendor you can use, no bank, etc).
I don't think it should be *easy* to set up in a foreign zone, but if opposing factions had resources near-ish to the local ones and if friendly ones (even if different races) had resources perhaps in the local home zone then that would alleviate most of the issues.
I feel like they should keep it difficult. There was a certain level of enjoyment in traversing the world as an ogre to meet up with my wood-elf buddies to go group in Crushbone. Sneaking through the sewers onto the boat. Making it off and all the way to Crushbone only to have wood elves and high elves be like "OH WHOA AN OGRE!". I always got a kick out of that. I think if you try hard enough the game should make it possible to make any race to group with another at least somewhat quickly from starting the game. I'd say within 10-20 levels. We can't have it *as hard* as it was in Everquest because that will turn people off now-a-days I think. Niche or not. It can be a little more forgiving.
That being said. It does foster community to have to ask someone to go into a city you can't and bring you supplies. I want this game's travel and meeting with other players to be a real high-five moment when you complete it.
With the question of travel options on opening day still under development, my preferences would be:
If two friends are starting out in different racial cities and it would be functionally impossible for them to hook up without weeks or more of leveling, then I'd have no problem with a one time, irreversible option for a newbie still in his starter town to be ported to his friend's starter town. It should be either at char creation or immediately after his 'intro' quests if such quests are somehow a prerequisite to unlocking his future char development. The option should disappear if he levels past that point.
If it's reasonably possible - even though challenging - for one of the newbs to travel to the home of the other using whatever options are already designed into the game within a fairly short time - for argument say a week - then that should be sufficient for any player who knows what kind of game he's chosen to play.
I think the option for friends who decide to play Pantheon together to be able to start the game together is an important one. I also think saying they have to both choose the same race or play a long time ingame before one can travel to meet the other is an unnecessary burden. Making it hard for a char to progress in game is an expected part of Pantheon. Making it hard for a customer play the game with his friends is not the same thing.
I feel that part of the joy in starting an MMO is just that, starting over, wether you have friends in RL or not. Start as new. Pick what you like, let the game take you from there. However for organized play then yes, choose al to be elves learn to fight like elves (meaning: be successfull with the class limitation of the race as a guild/group) be such a guild and as you grow- expand and take in new races and learn thier ways or wehat they can bring. Being older, making those journeys will not be as harsh and can expand to include other races.
I thought about this about a week or two ago, and here is something I came up with.
If I remember correctly in EQ some classes/races could choose where they wanted to start. So why not somewhat copy that into Pantheon.
If you create "outpost" for multiple factions, let's say put a Orge outpost somewhere in the middle of Kingsreach, with little to no trainers. Some one who wants to play as an Orge could play with friends or family that are playing Humans, Elves, or Halflings. Your Ogre may not be able to go into the cities to train or get new spells, but that could be the "risk" for deciding to do it. Sure if the Ogre plays a shaman, then one of his friends can go buy his spell scrolls (assuming this is how they are doing spells in the game) but that is something your friends/family will have to cordinate. But someone playing a warrior may not be able to train new skills. But again, little to no trainers in the outpost. Maybe just having melee trainers in the outpost can help.
If I remember right, there was a statement made that Terminus will be very large, trying to run from one continent to the other could take a very long time. Which is a good thing! I am not complaining about that. But putting players so far away from each other that want to be grouped up from the get go, just because of what race they choose, sucks.
It's not the perfect idea, even I know that, but it is something that can help players play with who they want to play with earlier. Isn't playing with friends/family what multiplayer games is all about? One of my fondest memories of EQ was playing with my two brothers. And the sooner I can do that, the better I say!
I think seperate starting areas is a great thing, especially with friends coming into the game together. Those who desperately want to group together from the start will make the effort to do so - in reality it would likely take one evening to get together, maybe less. For many though, they will just adventure in their early zones and eventually meet up probably in their teens. The great thing about this is that likely they will at times group with different people during that process and make new friends and increasing their 'friendship pool'. While it is always nice playing games with friends you met over the years, it can have the side effect that you get in a bit of a rut and just keep grouping with these same friends night after night and end up not actually interacting with anyone beyond - you end up cheating yourself out of one of the great experiences of an MMO. Certainly I have fallen into that trap over the years, forgetting how fun it can be experiencing things with different people (sometimes frustrating too!), spending some of your early life with strangers may be refreshing.
Look at the number of people who still consider their first trip from Qeynos to Freeport or from Felwithe to Erudin as an adventure in itself and a cherished memory, and there's my answer. I think it would be a mistake to cheapen that - people who really want to play together will make the run and make it happen (we are all much better gamers than we were in early EQ) and they will have that experience.
I also really want to preserve that feeling of "He came a long way" when you see a lowbie troll on faydwer, et cetera.
I had some pretty great times running Level 1 characters across Norrath. I admit I wouldn’t have dreamed of doing that when I was new to EverQuest, but I’m sure there are some who did (and some of those who actually made it) and had a great story to tell. I think a player should have to consider proximity to other races when choosing a race and I would not want any instant travel to other starting cities for new characters. That would definitely make the world feel smaller for me. I hope I can make it most of the way to max level before I see player characters of some of the races. Hell, even in WoW it was pretty difficult to run a Human from Stormwind to play with your friends in Darnassus. I’d be fine with maybe letting characters respawn in the zone in which they die for the first RL day after they are created (or something like that), but at least make players who want to bring a character to play on the other side of the world actually run there.
Excellent topic - I haven't seen this one debated for a while.
I don't see it simply as a matter of travel - some races will not be all that tolerant of aliens and if you are the alien you may face anything from prices being doubled to no one willing to talk to you (perhaps no one *can* talk to you because of language issues) to being kill-on-sight.
If you care that much about playing with friends you can all agree on where to start. If you care more about what races you are you can meet-up a bit later. Life is full of choices; imposing that one doesn't bother me at all.
I do think that if VR doesn't allow some system of letting different races start in or near the same place it should allow them to get to a place with good transportation by a reasonable level so you may need to wait to level 5 or 10 to play together but not wait to 20 or 30 (assuming slow progress - I started a LOTRO character yesterday and got her to 42 in one day and LOTRO has slower leveling than many MMOs).
Personally, I'm not a fan of "Isle of Dawn" / Newbie island experiences. I understand that it is more cost effective to have a single new player experience, but it feels very forced and immersion breaking to me. I appreciate the extra work that goes into creating a new player experience that really ties you into your character's race and background. Hopefully some of the areas are close enough you can group together sooner rather than later if you can't roll the same race, and maybe there's some wiggle room to let a character start outside of their normal starting racial area.
One of the things I really like about this game is that it forces you to make decisions. At least it seems that way to me. It will require different gear for different environments or atmospheres, it's classes are not jack of all trade types that can do everything, and several other systems they are working on all make me thing you will actually have to make decisions in this game that will effect your experience. I really haven't seen that in a while in a game. Usually the decisions you make are cosmetic or trivial and they don't change the over all experience.
Having unique starting cities is just another decison you will have to make that will change your experience. And I love it. Want to play an Elf but your friend wants to play a Skar? Guess you have a decision to make, play the race you want and meet up later with the friend, or sacrifice the race to play with them now. Decision like this make the game seem more real to me. I would hate to see them go through all this trouble making unique starting cities only to see a melting pot of all of the games races in all of the lowbie zones. Why bother if thats what is going to happen? Just make one or two starting cities like EQ2 started with and be done with it.
I am in favor of unique starting cities and no instant travel between them.
This is a zoned based game. You can "funnel" players without the need for questing. Think EQ 1, even if you started in Halas you eventually wound up in North Karana, and from there could make two choice of which way to go.
Along the way, many players from 3 starting areas naturally collected in Blackburrow or West Karana for the mid-teens level when you really needed to start grouping. All without any quest forcing you there.
Gyldervane said:First, I definitely don't think the game should try to funnel people into hub locations. I think it's much better to make a world for the world's sake and let players create their own hubs wherever they want. Game-intended hubs put the players on rails and lead to a themepark sort of experience, and that's what VR, to their everlasting credit, is trying to avoid.
This, I think, is the most important point to take.
Forcing player hubs always seemed silly and a tad reduntant to me. As if, without the devs putting the game on rails, the players would just mill around in idiotic confusion without creating their own hub. It's *almost* insulting.
Let these things happen organically, I say.
I think it should be made a choice on the players. While in theory having to travel long distances to meet up with friends and adventure sounds appealing, it's also tainted in nostalgia. There has to be a happy medium somewhere. I don't want instant travel either, but who truly wants to run for 2 hours with the sole purpose of avoiding mobs that are too strong to kill to meet up with a friend who picked a different race ? That is so 20 years ago. If you want to travel for 2 hours, then make it relevant. Don't make it a deterrent.
Having a few different starting locations for races makes it a choice on the players. If you want to roll a human outside of the "Human Hub", then make it slightly inconvenient, without having to make people rage quit in disgust. Or give a slight bonus if you roll a human in the human hub. FFXI gave an item if you rolled in the preferred hub for the race.
Maybe a dwarf that rolls in the human hub doesn't have stonecutting as a racial to start (just a random example). Said dwarf could pick up a quest that would lead back to the land of his ancestors to learn stonecutting if wanted. Would be an example of a slight inconvenience, with the option to "fix it" later on.
Or maybe you can get hired by a caravan to travel a bit faster. During the voyage, there could be a random chance of it being attacked and you need to defend.
But running from point A to point B and taking 3 hours instead of 1 and a half because you die 3 times on the way there, with nothing else going on than just dodging mobs ? Yeah...done that already. I shouldn't be punished for a choice I made (race). I don't mind the travel, I don't mind the challenge...but make it meaningful in a way other than "Bob rolled a Dwarf and I'll meet with him today so I guess I have to dodge monsters for 2 hours so I can play with him for 45 minutes".
I don't think the Devs should even consider it at all past the point of not putting any intentional barriers in place to prevent it.
What I mean is that there is already a choice for players to play together. Don't play a different race and problem solved. If some players choose to play different races then the players need to figure it out how to make it work within the WORLD the Devs create for us.
This topic hits home with me. EQ late 1999 a friend and I took on a quest to help a same level Euridite Mage that was 3-4 levels behind on her spells find her way back to Odus. One of the greatest adventures I ever went on in early EQ and continues even today whenever I speak to said mage even to this day.
Reminds me of a quote
"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty." - Winston Churchill
I Truly hope the Devs don't spend a lot of time figuring ways to take these opportunities from us.