Krixus said:And good grief man, you completely miss my point about having negative things in a game. Those negatives are a result of having a real virtual world where there ARE negative things BECAUSE THERE ARE AMAZING MAGICAL POSITIVE THINGS THAT WE WOULD NOT HAVE WITHOUT ACCEPTING THOSE NEGATIVE THINGS. This is a really genuinely easy concept to grasp and I am astounded how many people cannot do it. Instancing, fast travel, 100% automated auction house trading, mentoring, all do more harm than good to a game. Having a beautiful amazing open competitive world with a crazy special social dynamic while having kill stealing, potential over crowding, NO mentoring, is WELL WORTH IT.
In real life, anyone ever have that one friend who could never afford to hang out? Couldn't go in on the cabin to go snowboarding. Couldn't go to that new restaurant or go out to happy hour? That sucks. But that's life. You don't always get what you want when you want it. Not everything we all want is possible. People make decisions, people go down different paths. People work harder, people put in my time and effort in different areas and we can't all be expected to match our lives up perfectly, that would be insane. You deal with it, you take the good with the bad and you relish the good when it's those rare moments. An awesome virtual game world can be the same. Stop with all these gameplay mechanics that give people everything they want all the time with no sacrifices. Deal with the actual way the world has been shaped with you in it and it will be well worth it.
Those are some opinions. Also, EQ had rules against kill stealing and otherwise generally tried to limit player vs player conflict/fighting over camps in PvE.
The second part there also sounds like more of an argument for mentoring instead of against, especially for that friend who can't afford to go out on trips but can afford to play games with you. It's often hard enough to align schedules/free time with friends as it is so why would you then go and make the limited time people might have to relax and spend some time playing together impossible? "Just level an alt" is a garbage solution if someone has more than one friend they want to play with.
There is nothing wrong with mentoring if the power level is balanced, I haven't seen a single argument that justifies not having it as it doesn't affect others.
One of the scenarios I see mentoring being very valuable is as follows.
I like raiding and competing at the highest tier of content.
I have limited play time now compared to when I originally played EQ.
My wife is looking forward to playing but does not like to focus on leveling.
Her play time will be different then mine so she will be able to level when I cannot, so a with her only alt will not be possible.
We want to be able to play together when our schedules align.
Due to limited play time and a focus on raiding I cannot maintain a second character to keep up with her playtime outside of our mutual play time. Mentoring will allow me to drop my level to match what level she is currently at in order to party with her without ruining the challenge. The same would be true for guild members alts who need help and other RL friends and family as they join after launch. I may eventually start an alt but that would depend on a lot of factors like a lack of desired raid content, vacation time, living out of a hotel for a few months due to work, or a really harsh winter. Even if I make an alt though it will most likely be a healer or a tank that will give me other options when mentoring.
I also have made it clear I view power level and twinking as being very bad for games in general and welcome rather draconian methods to prevent it from being effective. As far as the sense of immersion I think that the player controlled hired mercenary is a way to mentor while still “staying in character” though I am pretty lenient on immersion violations when it has a high effect on quality of life, so long as they don't dumb down the game.
Frankly if all you've got is "LOL's" and caps lock, I'm not sure you got the point of a real mature conversation. You're making an amalgam of different people from different topics to categorize them into a big basket you named "the convenient ones". Keep calm and remember you're not talking to one big entity entitled to bringing the game down to fastfood level, theses are different peoples, and different peoples like different things, and hate differents things. Arguing against windmill because you cluttered every opposite opinion on any topic on the same virtual entity will only lead you to being angered more and more for pretty much nothing.
One sure thing is Pantheon is not an EQ clone, but taking it roots in it. That can mean a lot of things, including that modern technology can allow things out of range in the early 2000's, and thus they are right to be discussed here as some of them have been choosen by VR's team. And one thing is sure about them : Some of them made the original EQ, and they are clearly not on the edge of making decision based of a minority of forum voices even if we backed the game. As players, we lack a global vision of a game, social experience, and overall concept in favor of our very own conception of games, that's why game designers exists and players are here to enjoy it. If VR already did choose for mentoring, they have good reasons, and will make it more than a convenience of some sort.
Krixus said:FORCED to have multiple alts? Oh noes! What are you gaining on your main when you're mentoring anyway? You don't seriously want to gain power for your level 50 mentor doing level 20 content, do you?
No, where do you get that from? Mentoring is not for me to gain anything apart from being able to play with a friend or family member or guildy.
Krixus said:How hard is it to stay with 5-10 levels of a few friends on a couple alts?
5-10 levels? If you aren't within 5 even at high level it means you will be carrying the group, but never mind that small point.
It is very hard. I play a lot compared to my friends and family. I have 2 or 3 friends I play with and a couple of family members. I'd also like to get some more into it, but they don't all have the same schedules or the same amount of time to put in. I would have to have lots of alts and I would be restricted to playing only that one alt depending on which buddy played.
Want to play a caster tonight for a change? You can't because your Dad is on for the first time in a couple of weeks and your warrior is the one that's his level.
Krixus said:You shouldn't be able to just fake yourself to a vastly different level for your own convenience. It flies in the face of the integrity of the game.
Why not? Who says? The *integrity* of the game? What *are* you talking about? It's not a religeon that must be inviolate. Good grief.
Krixus said:And honestly, if this game doesn't have content to do among disparate levels, then it won't be worth playing anyway.You can help them level
Powerlevelling? Lol. And you are worried about "the integrety of the game"?
Krixus said:you can help them do a quest
You can trivialise a quest for them. To *help* them you'd need to be at their level.
Krixus said:you can help them farm crafting components, you can help them travel and pick up spells around the world
Yeah. No.
Krixus said:you can chill and hang out and talk
I can do that on the phone or Skype. Not the point.
Krixus said:You can have them help YOU level up an alt to join them
So get *them* to powerlevel *me*? No thanks.
Krixus said:You do not need this fake mechanic to be able to have quality fun game time with friends who can't group for EXP
It's not about the XP it's about the challenge and playing the game how it's best to experience.
Krixus said:And honestly, you are blowing that part way out of proportion
Not being able to play the game with my friends is pretty fundamental and I'm not blowing up at this issue, you are.
Krixus said:If you have so many friends who are playing and you can't group with ANY of them, a mentoring system isn't going to be helpful anyway
Yes it is and it would be the only way to actually get more than one of them together. Got a friend at 10 and a friend at 20 and you're at 30? You and the 20 mentor the 10. Can you do that with alts?
Krixus said:And like I said before, you don't just deserve to be catered to at the expense of realism and integrity of gameplay
Realism *and* integrety now? Lol. Is this a fantasy game? 1) Fantasy. 2) Game. Talk about taking things too seriously.
Krixus said:just because you don't want to sacrifice one little thing
You must not have many friends if you feel playing with them is 'one little thing'.
Krixus said:1. It is unnecessary if the game is quality. The problem statement itself is blown out of proportion.
What has 'quality' to do with it? How can the 'quality' of the game maintain a dozen alts for me to play with friends and have a few extra in case I meet someone of a level I don't cover?
Krixus said:2. It is actually anti-social as it will prevent strangers from grouping up. I'm not going to LFG, I'm just going to wait for my buddy to get on and mentor me.
Ridiculous. In that case guilds are totally anti-social - we should get rid of those.
Krixus said:3. It is "fake" in the sense that while this game has magic and dragons, this goes way too far and breaks even the "suspend your disbelief" angle.
You're really grasping now. The concept of a master playing at a student's level is too wild? Hiring a mercenary and retrieving a temporal version of one's self have been proposed. That doesn't soothe your fragile imagination? Teleportation - moving through space is ok, but moving through time is out of the question? Hiring is mercenary is utterly mundane.
Krixus said:4. Opportunity cost. See #1. I do not want the devs wasting time on this kind of mechanic when there are so many actually important things to do.
More important than helping players play with their friends? Lol. Luckily the devs have already got this as a very high priority.
Krixus said:5. You actually get to have an alt! How fun is that? I have a 23 bard and an 8 necro and a 44 monk. You don't just relegate yourself to playing that monk again and again! Cool!
And you and I can still do that, but with mentoring I can have alts purely for fun! Of any class or race or level and play them whenever I want! How fun is that!
Is was going to carry on answering, but I get the feeling it's pointless. In this issue like many others you have decided what you consider to be an unecessary convenience and anyone who wants it is trying to bring about the end of MMORPGs.
You don't want mentoring. Ok. Good thing the devs do.
I must be thick as a brick I guess because I don't see how this makes the game any less challenging. This is a case where convenience doesn't detract from the difficulty nor goals of the game. Making it easy to play with friends doesn't make things less rewarding, it makes things more rewarding and experiences more rich.
Would you rather be watching a friend play baseball or be out there on the field alongside them? Which would provide you a more rich experience? The game isn't changed by you being on the field with your friend, and you still meet new people since there are other players on the team.
Krixus said:Sounds like you can't be bothered to read what I'm saying or address a single point. Clearly, mentoring is not what I want. Great post. Knee jerk? How about fact based, experience based, extremely detailed responses illustrating very clearly why I disagree. But great post bro, great post.
I have read your posts. I was simply pointing out the irony in your messages. When you start adding ZOMG before a word, you portray an image of someone freaking out about something petty. You talked about how people view things as a death sentence yet you have expressed your serious doubts/concerns for the future of this game multiple times. Maybe you should take your own advice and "deal with it." Mentoring isn't going to break the game. It's been communicated for quite awhile that this feature is envisioned as important for this game so while you're sitting here freaking out about it and complaining about how people aren't reading your messages, I start to question whether or not you have actually done your homework on this feature. I would recommend that you read up on the following blog entry: https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/blogs/151/183/matchmaking-systems-what-we-re-up-to-and-why-part-1
@Krixus
I'm always willing to have a friendly debate with people but you have earned a bit of a reputation with me. I seem to recall endless dialogue with you on the XP Chain thread where you consistently used strawman arguments that completely ignored the validity of my argument. You seem to have this very passionate desire to see Pantheon emulate EQ as closely as possible. I can respect that, up to a point. You have this tendency to spin the context of a conversation into something pretty wicked and I just don't know if I have the patience to go through all of that with you again. You did the exact same thing on the "acclimation" thread. To insinuate that I am the #1 fanboy is really off-base ... I have been quite the critic over the past year and a half and I'd bet good money that VR views me as more of a pain in the ass than a glorified fanboy. I never said anything was set in stone but I am under the impression that this feature is viewed as "important" for this game. I don't know how much you read into that post but there is also a section that asks for people to remain calm and patient. You seem to prefer the "Alarmist Disposition" route and I wish you luck with that. If you want to have a meaningful conversation about the topic I'd be more than happy to address any specific point or question that you have. If you're going to turn around and start telling people that their message is hot garbage, or that the game is suddenly going to turn into a cheesy easy mode game where everybody has everything handed to them on a silver platter, I won't further indulge you.
1. It is unnecessary if the game is quality. The problem statement itself is blown out of proportion.
How does mentoring figure into this? If the game is quality then allowing friends to play together without affecting the challenge or experience wouldn't tarnish quality in any way.
2. It is actually anti-social as it will prevent strangers from grouping up. I'm not going to LFG, I'm just going to wait for my buddy to get on and mentor me.
If I am playing with a friend there are still 4 other spots in the group for random people. If players can mentor then they don't need to strictly play with only their known circle of friends, so they are free to meet new people all the time.
3. It is "fake" in the sense that while this game has magic and dragons, this goes way too far and breaks even the "suspend your disbelief" angle.
Not being able to play with friends seems more fake or beyond belief to me. If it were real then my experienced friend could go into a dungeon with me in search of treasure but he would still be at risk of death fighting a group of orcs, the same as how even the most skilled hunter in the real world can easily die to whatever dangerous game they hunt.
4. Opportunity cost. See #1. I do not want the devs wasting time on this kind of mechanic when there are so many actually important things to do.
Okay.
5. You actually get to have an alt! How fun is that? I have a 23 bard and an 8 necro and a 44 monk. You don't just relegate yourself to playing that monk again and again! Cool!
Nothing wrong with someone wanting to focus their efforts on one character or playstyle instead of being forced into alts. Alts don't cover making new friends and being social as you desire from point #2. If I make a new random friend at level 30 who doesn't play as much as me then oh well, would have been nice to play but good luck in life stranger.
6. There are other solutions. Horizontal scaling. Quests that don't involve killing mobs for exp. Crafting and harvesting, etc. ACTUAL content can be put in the game that works for people of different level at the same time.
These other solutions seem like telling people who go to a soccer field to play soccer "Well you can't play soccer...at least not together. But hey you can go in the stands and eat hotdogs together or crawl under the seats looking for loose change!"
Thread cleaned up, inflammatory posts - and replies to them - removed.
Our stance on Mentoring - It will be in the game and is designed to be a way to help people of all levels connect in our social, group-based game. Any tweaks needing to be made will be done with our testers feedback during testing.
This discussion has now run its course, I will leave you with the official FAQ answer to this question.
4.11 Can I play with my friend’s new character using my high-level character? What about alts?
"Yes, through the Mentor System. Mentoring temporarily de-levels your character and allows you to group with them. You will either scale down or assume the character you were at that lower level (TBD) and be a huge help. This will enable players to group together without one being overpowered and content trivialized.
The Mentor System is voluntary although there will be incentives to mentor, giving your character certain advantages (points, recognition, and other rewards – the details are TBD). We want to encourage people to help new players."