Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

HiveLeader stream: Observations and Questions

    • 124 posts
    May 16, 2018 10:52 PM PDT

    I looked around but there seem to be a lot of Very specific "things" in the stream, but not an over all general "lets talk about This stream" type post. 

    User Interface: Simple: I love just about everything about it. The group box, the targets on the bar at the bottom, Rings around targeted mobs, the very Long visible Cast Bar, and even the buff area (for self) 

    However I do also have some questions. 

    1. Is there not a way to see target of target? has it not been implimented? or Will it be added later? or was it just not turned on in UI settings?
    2. When the "GM Shout" banned came up. I like it, but it does block view of the group member a bit. it was opaque enough to still see Machail's health, but I would rather it not "cover" the tanks health in the middle of intense fights. Maybe taper the opacity of that "shout" have it barely visible at the outter edge ( near group box ). 
    3. Mobs names after death.  will they continue to float way up at "pre death height" or will they eventually find their way to the ground, near the corpse? (I don't like the standing height names on corpses) 
    Classes, Races
    1. Every Class so far is wesome: Warrior, Shaman, Chanter, Cleric: look really good. (Zoeii's Shield is flippin killer looking)
    2. Are some races still using place-holder art? Elf seems to all look the same: dead or sickly, and ultra pale. Ogre looks superb btw. 
    3. Show us a Ranger soon? please? 
    Thank you for doing Racial abilities and Separate starting cities. This got you pledge money. 
     
    Spells: a lot of questions here. 
    The cleric had 4 heals and an absorb shield at level 22. No Group heal or Heal over Time spells. and 2 damage spells

     

    • Celestial Glow
    • Celestial Dawn
    • Burst of Life
    • Word of Renewal
    • Reckon's Barrier (the absorb shield)

    Celestial glow and Dawn are exactly the same except glow is L12 and 12 mana, Dawn is L18 and 18 mana. Not sure 6 mana is enough to even bother using Glow?

    Both: if targets health is less than 40% they get guard/shield (AC boost of 109 for 5 seconds) 

    Both: if targets health is less than 20% they get an absorb Physical damage for 6 seconds.  (no mention of any magical / caster dps) 

    Both: Heals your ally's wounds and abrasions. Neither give any mention of how much health they heal. ... by design, or not finished ? will they be updated to give amounts? Reckon's Barrier gives a specific amount: it absorbs 150 Damage, but it doesn't specify physical or magical or both. 

    Damage spells: not one of them say how much damage they do. Will this change? 

    The dungeon itself: 

    it was said the dungeon was designed for level 8 to 35, which I love. but, I noticed that at lev 22 cons went from light green to white and yellow in the blink of an eye. literally from the hall near the boxes and dresser, most all of it was green cons, to the area Fiona was at was stated as white and she was a Yellow con to the group. 

    Don't you think this is a big jump for "going around the corner" ? 

    The FIONA FIGHT: 

    She was Yellow con to Lev 22 group. She is extremely hard. Basically, if you don't have 2 tanks, 2 mez classes and 2 healers, you likely won't win unless you are Lev 25-26 so she is a blue con. (is how that fight seems) 

    But and even bigger question is:  will a typical Lev 22-23 group have armor and weapons as good as what you guys have? because if the group is still wearing non magical cloth and a rusty sword, Fiona would be impossible unless she was a light blue con (or so it seems)  Give me some hope here. The fight seems WAY over tuned ( too hard ) for a typical group or any group that doesn't have 2 tanks, 2 mez, and 2 heals...  I am OK with hard fights. But if you are going to make death Sting, I at least want a chance at a win without having to die 3 times and or Kick group members until I have the "perfect" group to take her out.  

    Fun Stuff: 

    I love how you guys talked about how stuff from other types of games carried over into games like Pantheon. You guys even joked about reading Headlines the next day. 

    After playing Pillars of Eternity over the last few days I get exactly what you guys mean by that. I really hope some of that RPG (pillars of eternity) type story show up in Pantheon.  I think the way quests are made could "learn something" from that RPG game. Or even the Perception ability could tie in a LOT of RPG things. 

    I am just really glad you guys do play many games other than just EQ and I look forward to seeing what Clerver ideas you guys "barrow or steal" from other games. There is no shame in barrowing a really good idea. 


    This post was edited by Flapp at May 17, 2018 8:46 PM PDT
    • 312 posts
    May 16, 2018 11:07 PM PDT
    Nice post! I agree with about everything. Funny critique of the height of the corpse nameplates, but I must agree - for mobs at least, as that height may help players find their corpses. And I agree on how the Fion fight seemed, though Im guessing that sort of tuning will happen more during alpha. Nevertheless, nice to look at it now.
    • 902 posts
    May 17, 2018 2:45 PM PDT

    Flapp said:

    The FIONA FIGHT: 

    She was Yellow con to Lev 22 group. She is extremely hard, basically, if you don't have 2 tanks, 2 mez classes and 2 healers, you likely won't win unless you are Lev 25-26 so she is a blue con. (is how that fight seems) 

    But and even bigger question is:  will a typical Lev 22-23 group have armor and weapons as good as what you guys have? because if the group is still wearing non magical cloth and a rusty sword, Fiona would be impossible unless she was a light blue con (or so it seems)  Give me some hope here. The fight seems WAY over tuned ( too hard ) for a typical group or any group that doesn't have 2 tanks, 2 mez, and 2 heals...  I am OK with hard fights. But if you are going to make death Sting, I at least want a chance at a win without having to die 3 times and or Kick group members until I have the "perfect" group to take her out.   

    The thing you have to remember.  Is that the streamers are not that adept at the classes they are playing.  They get a quick rundown of the abilities and a few decent fights to get used to it... but this is nothing like the experience of leveling up that class.

    Also. . Lets be serious, most of us will probably be better than the devs ;).

    Also i forget what stream it was. But joppa says that alot of people have beaten the boss using very interesting tactics.  I dont think it's as hard as the streams let on.


    This post was edited by Porygon at May 17, 2018 2:47 PM PDT
    • 90 posts
    May 17, 2018 4:13 PM PDT

    Flapp said:

    Celestial glow and Dawn are exactly the same except glow is L12 and 12 mana, Dawn is L18 and 18 mana. Not sure 6 mana is enough to even bother using Glow?

     

    Not sure on the specificiations on casting times and or healing amount per spell. But, if it happens to  be how I beleive it'll work you can use the L12 spell as a small "patch" when mana is running low and you don't have enough for the L18 one. 

    • 1010 posts
    May 17, 2018 11:26 PM PDT

    eldrun said:

    Flapp said:

    Celestial glow and Dawn are exactly the same except glow is L12 and 12 mana, Dawn is L18 and 18 mana. Not sure 6 mana is enough to even bother using Glow?

     

    Not sure on the specificiations on casting times and or healing amount per spell. But, if it happens to  be how I beleive it'll work you can use the L12 spell as a small "patch" when mana is running low and you don't have enough for the L18 one. 

     

    Alpha numbers, so it's not definitive and the OP shouldn't theorize too much, however :

     

    The cooldown on spells is higher than the casting time for now, meaning if you need to chain heal you will have to twitch between two spells as you can't chain the same one endlessly.

    • 124 posts
    May 17, 2018 11:46 PM PDT

     

     

    Alpha numbers, so it's not definitive and the OP shouldn't theorize too much, however :

     

    Not "theorizing" anything. I am using cold hard facts directly from the stream. and asking questions about the stream. 

    • 592 posts
    May 18, 2018 12:47 AM PDT

    Flapp said:

     

    The FIONA FIGHT: 

    She was Yellow con to Lev 22 group. She is extremely hard. Basically, if you don't have 2 tanks, 2 mez classes and 2 healers, you likely won't win unless you are Lev 25-26 so she is a blue con. (is how that fight seems) 

    But and even bigger question is:  will a typical Lev 22-23 group have armor and weapons as good as what you guys have? because if the group is still wearing non magical cloth and a rusty sword, Fiona would be impossible unless she was a light blue con (or so it seems)  Give me some hope here. The fight seems WAY over tuned ( too hard ) for a typical group or any group that doesn't have 2 tanks, 2 mez, and 2 heals...  I am OK with hard fights. But if you are going to make death Sting, I at least want a chance at a win without having to die 3 times and or Kick group members until I have the "perfect" group to take her out.  

    Seems like they might have needed a bit more communication between our players doing the CC part or maybe. keeping her locked down from the second the fight starts seemed to be the key but for some reason it couldnt be executed. Maybe she was resisting too much and that is the woe of fighting a yellow and above i'd imagine.  But i think if there was high a chance of resist or maybe even early breaks because of her higher level then CC should be just loading up all your bag of tricks on her to be sure she can't move / fight!

    Maybe i am wrong and someone was forgeting that they were using an AoE lol!

    • 168 posts
    May 18, 2018 9:22 PM PDT

    Let me toss out some honesty here. As far as the boss fight goes, sorry, but Devs usually suck at their own games lol. And they made it. I watched some videos and read quite a few articles about the reason why dev's suck and it's because they overthink it. They know every tactic that they can use involving their own code, but for some reason, they don't think in between the lines. That's all they know is the code they wrote, so for the most part, they overthink the heck out of it.

    That being said, I highly doubt that boss is as hard as they make it seem. Sure, she will be tough, but I bet 4/5 well synced played together a lot groups will work out how to deal with her easily. The last one might wipe once or twice, but will get her down. 

    • 110 posts
    May 19, 2018 8:14 AM PDT

    Flapp said:

    Not "theorizing" anything. I am using cold hard facts directly from the stream. and asking questions about the stream. 

    Yes, but the game isn't even in alpha yet. Pre-alpha is for getting the basics like assets, levels, and some underpinning mechanics in and stable. Alpha is for adding, removing, and tweaking mechanics and features of the game. Beta is generally feature complete and is for making slight adjustments to mechanics, balance passes, and polishing the final product.

    Numbers at this stage are anything but final and any "facts" gleaned from them other than extremely basic things like "this number is bigger than this one" are less subject to change and more will most definetely be changed. For instance, notice that the level 12 ability costs 12 mana while the level 18 one costs 18 mana. I'd be willing to bet that right now the level 8 abilities cost 8 mana and the level 24 abilities cost 24 mana. Having the mana cost be equal to the level of the ability tells us that the mana costs of abilities will in some way be tied to the level those abilities are gained at and very little, if anything, else.

    Your comments and critiques of UI design elements are completely valid.

    • 124 posts
    May 19, 2018 9:49 PM PDT

    "Your comments and critiques of UI design elements are completely valid."

    as is everything else i asked. 

    the questions I asked are more for kilsin or devs that would KNOW the answer. I know exactly how PRE ALPHA, alpha and beta works. 

    I asked if they planned to add numbers to those spells at some point.  Do you know the answer? Reckon's Barrier has an Exact Number. No guessing there, it absorbs 150 DMG. and yes, I also know because it's pre alpha, that number might change 5 times before the actual release. 

    I find it strange that at Lev 12 I give the tank 109AC for 5 seconds, but also at lev 22 I still only give 109AC for 5 seconds.  I bet those change too because if not, one of those is over power or the other is Under powered. 

    I am just posting stuff and asking questions and having fun, so everything I asked was valid. not just the UI part. 


    This post was edited by Flapp at May 19, 2018 9:50 PM PDT
    • 202 posts
    May 20, 2018 3:59 AM PDT

    @Flapp, I really enjoyed reading your analysis.

    Flapp said:

    Not sure 6 mana is enough to even bother using Glow?

    I have no idea if this is the case, but if Mana caps out at 100 would the difference between 12 and 18 seem significant enough?

    Flapp said:

    ... Fiona would be impossible unless...

    I actually really like the difficulty level of the Fiona fight.  EQ had a few special wandering mobs that conned significantly under their "real" difficulty level, and I think that is a good thing - as long as it's not taken to extremes.

     

    Porygon said:

    Also. . Lets be serious, most of us will probably be better than the devs ;).

    This made me laugh.  I've noticed the same thing (devs not being that great at actually playing the game) in other games and made the point here recently.


    This post was edited by Nihimon at May 20, 2018 3:59 AM PDT
    • 124 posts
    May 20, 2018 1:13 PM PDT

    Nihimon 

    True: if 100 is a mana cap, 6 mana would be a big deal. (it's kind of fun not knowing how significant that 6 mana is) 

    Makes me also wonder if the AC buff is a set amount (109 no matter if you are lev 12 or 22) or if that number is determined by you level, hence Why is 109 on both. 

     

    Don't get me wrong. I love a good hard fight. I can't wait to get in a group and try that fight myself. I just thought while sitting at the tall cabinet, cons were green ( not as good exps and blue, white and yellow if it follows the old EQ style con) then the courtyard is white and yellow. Where the hard blues? lol  I just don't want a fight that can only be won by being over powered or an exact type of group (2,2,2 from above) 

     

    I also laughed when i read Porygon's comment. The devs are really bad at their own game. 

     

    Can not wait to see a stream with a Dire Lord, ranger, Summoner, druid, shaman, wizard: mix it up, see how a group with no CC and no cleric works out, 

    • 128 posts
    May 20, 2018 4:03 PM PDT

    Wanna know how bad the creators of the game are?  Just listen to the beginning of every streams first fight, everyone including himself are cappin on Aradune and how hes gonna make them wipe somehow LOL.  Love It!

    One thing I totally agree with and noticed myself was how the shout outs were covering up the group window and that as a cleric or healer you want to be able to click on and also see the health of all group members.

    I agree with OP on all items listed and also look forward to answers to most of he questions posed.

    Lastly,

    I agree with how the "mini-boss"  fight seems overpowered.  Win-able?  Sure, but for a miniboss I think unlimited mini deathtouch is a bit much.  If the slightest thing goes wrong, its a wipe, shes not Nagafen.  Should it be hard to fight a miniboss?  Damn str8, but I think a wipe for a small error is a bit much.  Im not in PA so I cant judge from experience but from what Ive seen.  Just my opinion.  Keep up the good work folks!


    This post was edited by vigilantee13 at May 20, 2018 4:10 PM PDT
    • 22 posts
    May 20, 2018 5:51 PM PDT

    Flapp said:

    She was Yellow con to Lev 22 group. She is extremely hard. Basically, if you don't have 2 tanks, 2 mez classes and 2 healers, you likely won't win unless you are Lev 25-26 so she is a blue con. (is how that fight seems) 

    But and even bigger question is:  will a typical Lev 22-23 group have armor and weapons as good as what you guys have? because if the group is still wearing non magical cloth and a rusty sword, Fiona would be impossible unless she was a light blue con (or so it seems)  Give me some hope here. The fight seems WAY over tuned ( too hard ) for a typical group or any group that doesn't have 2 tanks, 2 mez, and 2 heals...  I am OK with hard fights. But if you are going to make death Sting, I at least want a chance at a win without having to die 3 times and or Kick group members until I have the "perfect" group to take her out.  

    Agreed. I hope the Fiona encounter is not typical of a named mob, because this would be an incredibly hardcore game if you needed a very well-arranged group of specific class roles to hope to beat most any dungeon named of equivalent level. Hopefully this is just a balance issue related to being in pre-alpha, but then I have to ask the question as to why they have showcased this encounter now in multiple streams with the way it currently stands in difficulty. 

    • 981 posts
    May 20, 2018 10:33 PM PDT

    I hope the difficulty is scaled so that groups can't beat a yellow con named without an exact group makeup and knowledge of the fight.  Seems pretty close to what it should be.

    • 909 posts
    May 21, 2018 2:29 AM PDT

    Aside from the obvious "Erm, it's pre-alpha" the concept of how hard 'boss' (mini or otherwise) fights should be is interesting.

    Personally, I'm hoping Pantheon *is* a 'hardcore' game that requires a good group to take down bosses.  How a good group is defined is the issue.  For me the aspects of group could be: -

    1) Composition of classes
    2) Quality of gear
    3) Appropriateness of ability/acclimation selections
    4) Level range
    5) Player skill

    There's probably other aspects, but with just those, what makes a 'good' group can vary, eg. A group with highly skilled players may not need ideal composition of classes. A group with excellent gear may not need a relatively high level range.  A group with perfect ability/acclimation choices may not need to be highly skilled.

    To me, that's perfectly fine and dandy and is part of the tactics and challenge of the game.

    I understand the desire to see 'scaled' content, but I think it removes some of the tactical options. For me, if you know you've got a challenging class composition, it's fine tactic to wait until you've levelled up in another part of the keep before proceeding to the boss.

    Also if you are highly skilled and have good group composition and know the encounter 'tricks' I would want to be able to do it at lower level than is normal.  If it scaled (down) to your level the encounter would then be trivial.