I used to trust some gaming compagnies when I was younger, and the videogame market was too. Sillicon and Synapse that became Blizzard, Activision at it's time, even EA, made good games during their early years. Black isle, Bullfrog, Bethesda, etc...
However, with their numerous changes of leads, beeing bought by shareholders or bigger groups, most of theses vanished or simply lost their souls. Now when one of the big emerging video game distributor announces a new title, I just tell myself "What crap will it be this time ?".
Most if not all of them, lost my trust over the decades and I don't buy much videogames now, due to that and the evolution of the market.
Same as pretty much what MauvasOeil said.
To me, big game companies can't be trusted anymore (sadly). We need/have to vote with our wallet to make any sort of impact because they're not entirely being honest with us; even if they are legit and just have finance problems. A clear lack of transparency is the problem for me. I like game companies to be honest with no non-sense gimmicks that try to pull the wool over my/our eyes (sick of it).
While a game dev or company can say/promise "X Y Z" but what really matters to me is the intent. VR's intent is clearly laid out here: https://www.pantheonmmo.com/game/game_tenets/
This + it's "dev history" is the only reason I backed this game for as much as I did. While this means "nothing" as anyone can write anything down... it's the over intent behind it; aswell as the site; what the devs say and the general overall "jist" of the game and community. That's the hooker for me.
Generally the style of game and comming across comments or articles about them. Some were from my youth. I remember going to my local computer shop every lunchtime to play Civilization (i). I don't have the latest version but I have a few of them, but that got me in to stragety type games. Others like Masters of Orion, endless space, Age of Empires, . It also help I played D&D to pick up on those type of games to get into MMO's. Pool's of Radiance etc from SSI, Hero's of might and magic, Warcraft.
Ultima III back at school on the Apple ][. I am not drawn to any particular company. As MauvaisOeil points out, they just keep changing and taking over each other. I use to play EA games such as Battlefield, but then hackers spoil them so I don't bother. Loved Battlefield 2142 with the mech's. Still got it, no servers for it now I think.
I think it was a friend who mentioned Pantheon back when I pledged to the Kickstart. But that was really based on EQ. I did play Vanguard for a few months, but it wasn't high up on my list of MMO's.
Now days I think it is more by chance I come across a game I would buy or subscribe too.
I think MauvaisOeil said most of it. The big names quit putting out quality products in exchange for quantity of products, and at $50-60 a pop, it only takes a couple of bad purchases to make any consumer wary.
It's one of the things I like about Steams 14day/2 hours played return policy, it adds a bit of a safety net when trying out some new games. (Although theres some games that it takes nearly 2 hours just to get through the setup and tutorial).
I judge them by their track record, if they have one. MauvaisOeil was correct but a company that has released good games and been reasonable in dealing with customers is more likely to do so again than is a company that has released poor games and been terrible at dealing with customers.
I judge them based on what they say. A company that says "we will release a pve-centered old school game" may do it, or may not. Anyone can say almost anything. And they can say it and mean it but be unable to deliver. But a company that says we are developing a pvp game where you can hit level-cap in a day and only the endgame matters is guaranteed to not release a game I want. I prefer the hope of getting what I want to the absolute certainty of not getting it.
I judge them based on what I know of their resources and committment. I am thinking of a certain project currently available in alpha that appears to be the work of a husband and wife team. With all the ability and good intentions in the world, they simply will not have the resources to develop a very good game in a reasonable time frame. Pantheon will be released in all its finished glory while they are still plowing ahead (barring a major infusion of resources).
Kilsin said:What draws you to a particular game or company, do you judge them by their products/service or is there some other deciding factor you use before jumping on board? #PRF #MMORPG #MMO #communitymatters
If they're humble. Nothing worse than (a company's) developers too proud to admit they have made a mistake, in my opinion.
Haven't seen humility in an MMO, yet, though, so maybe VR will be the first. :)
I judge games by their features. I'm kinda picky, and I tend to want to play a single game for many years.
I judge a company by my history with it, and that almost always manifests as distrust of a company (*cough* Sony *cough*) that has made obviously bad decisions that had a negative impact on me.
Nihimon sort of summed it up for me as well.
Game-wise, I look for depth/complexity, breadth/replayability, story, and overall features. A heavy focus on online PvP as the bulk of gameplay, or a really invasive monetization strategy will usually turn me off on the game. Likewise if the game feels really shallow, or if I feel like I won't get a good amount of time out of it, then I'll walk away from it.
As for companies, it's about history and what they or the people within them have done in the past. For example, I completely gave up on SOE's gaming portfolio after going through the destruction of SWG and minimal life support for Vanguard. I've learned over time not to trust anything EA publishes, and to check first for ways that they're just trying to grab more money from me before buying (though I"ll still occasionally buy an EA game). I don't play EVE anymore for several reasons, but I have a lot of respect for CCP for their transparency and communication with their customer base. Recently, I've started to like Paradox Interactive a bit more because of similar transparency and communication, and because they've backed off on putting all the meaningful updates for their games in paid DLCs.
So when I think about what a company like VR should do to earn my trust as a consumer, it's pretty simple:
1) Make a great game and stay true to the core vision of that game.
2) Don't build in aggressive monetization. Keep it simple and fair.
3) Maintain transparent and open communication with the players, be receptive to and acknowledge feedback.
You know I used to judge by companies that made good games, then i had a rude awakening with Destony 2. Destiny 1 was pretty good, kept me entertained for a while and with the improvements they were talking about for destiny 2 i was so excited. Then destiny 2 just straight flopped. It was boring in all aspects, that's when i realized, you can't really judge a book by who wrote it. That being said, I have been waiting for a month or 2 before purchasing games and seeing what everyone else is saying about them before buying it. Sadly, no one really offers a demo anymore, which used to be how i decided if i liked a game or not. But as far as MMo's go, Brad's track record seems pretty solid to me, even with that escapade with his one game, who really cares? It launched and it was fun and entertaining for the longest time, still i have no idea why they shut the servers down, but it is what it is. Heck, i don't even know the whole story behind whatever happened to it, I really don't care tho.
If a well established company is creating a product I am interested in, I look at the genre they have mostly been successful with versus the genre of game they are trying to create. Bioware was a great example of making great single player RPGs which in no way translated to making a great MMORPG (SWTOR). Anyone can learn to speak a new language but it will take time and effort.
If not a well established company, then I look at the personalities involved in the game I am interested in. If they have a good track record within the genre then I will look deeper into the game. Some personalities that I could name not associated with Pantheon would be Mark Jacobs and Matt Firor. I know that if unimpeded by corporate interests, they have the skills to make a good MMORPG or at least good large elements of said MMORPG.
Putting the almighty dollar first and foremost above the player base is something that I do not support monetarily no matter how great the product seems to be at first glance. An example of this is if I see an interesting game in development and then notice that EA is behind it, it gets dropped from my list of potential games to follow. My opinion of EA perhaps correlates with Nihimons opinion of Sony.
It really isn't just and only about what draws me to a company; it's also about what's left to choose from after I subtract those companies with abysmal track records in some aspects of games, genres, or games development.
Lastly, I look at IP concerns. I have been involved with two MMORPGs that had ... constraints ... that may have diminished the games from flowering as well as a true MMORPG should have. Warhammer Online had IP constraints that limited the potential (licensing constraints as well). It also had that evil EA company involved with it but at that time EA wasn't fully evil yet. ESO, so much potential if not for the people (single player types) that never ever played or wanted to understand what an MMO is or how it works and kept insisting on single player game elements. I won't automatically ditch a game of the future based on a pre-established IP, but I will look hard and close at it to see if it is wearing shakles impossed on it from a different genre of games or books.
How I judge a game:
The more it keeps my interest over time, the higher I hold the game in esteem. I played ESO for a while, and loved it...until I didn't. I ran out of engaging content and everything seems very repetitive and boring. I played Destiny and Destiny 2 for a a while as well, and same results, but there were also other bottle-necking issues, and lack of responsiveness to the gaming community and the game company was found to to be inappropriately bottlenecking xp gains in an apperant attempt to increase sales at the cash shop. While I once loved those games, I don't hold them in high regard anymore. While I blame Destiny for my lack of regard, I don't blame ESO as much as I was subjectively using EQ as a measuring stick and it simply couldn't live up to those standards.
Specifica games I still hold in high regard even though I don't play them (besides EQ/EQ2 of course) are the Diablo series, and the Fallout series. I love Diablo's random loot tables that give each drop uniqueness, and their clever ways to keep a would-be repetitive game fresh (seasons/tweaking set bonuses). I love Fallout's questline forks as it creates replayability. Skyrim was also fun because of the seemingly endless amount of content (although after a certain point was not particularly challenging).
So long as the game keeps me engaged, then I'm going to keep playing. MMO's are the only real way to accomplish this as half the fun is finding groups and grinding with new people. Between harvesting/tradeskilling/grinding/camping gear/questing/loot farming/exploring/twinking new characters/role playing/paying it forward to noobs, there is usually SOMETHING that sounds engaging, depending on my mood.
How I judge a game company:
Three basic things: the company's historic track record, the current responsiveness to the gaming community, the company's vision for future content. I could go into detail on these criteria but they're pretty straight forward.
The quality of their products and services is one part of it but by far the biggest/most meaningful influence of how I view a company is how open, honest, and over all involved they are with the community.
When a company has devs that frequent forums (and reddit) as well as release occasional videos to the community detailing what is currently happening with the game/what is on dev minds, what is on the horizon for content/updates, as well as addressing/commenting on any larger community concerns/issues/questions, it is a massive plus to me.
In recent past I would credit the Overwatch team (less lately, but the first year they were on top of it a lot) with being pretty engaged with the community. And currently Rare/the Sea of Thieves crew have been doing a great job at addressing the community and being open about what is going on, what they are working on, and even changing content plans/focus to address player wants and concerns.
zewtastic said:Kilsin said:Our goal is to be in alpha by the end of 2015, in beta during 2016, and to release the game in 2017. But this is not set in stone, and the above dates are subject to change."
How indeeed.
You judge on missed targets? If we had launched then we would not be here talking about Pantheon anymore as it wouldn't exist. ;)
My faves were Bioware (Canadian game company..made some rpgs that I enjoyed, last one being Dragon Age: Origins) Mythic (Dark Age of Camelot) SOE wasnt much of a favorite, they made some mistakes over the years with EQ and SWG. I do have fave devs though..Mr. McQuaid being the first one :)
Kilsin said:zewtastic said:Kilsin said:Our goal is to be in alpha by the end of 2015, in beta during 2016, and to release the game in 2017. But this is not set in stone, and the above dates are subject to change."
How indeeed.
You judge on missed targets? If we had launched then we would not be here talking about Pantheon anymore as it wouldn't exist. ;)
And this is exactly why companies like to dodge giving dates. Because nothing is ever ready when they expect it to be, and you always got that one guy that wants to call you out on it, like you didn't say these are not set in stone.
I, on the other hand, even tho I have no experience making games and all that jazz, I understand that any date a developer gives is not set in stone. I've seen a lot of things go wrong when they get rushed, it happened in Afghanistan, they tried to rush an assault and 20 people got injured, and I told them we needed more time, nobody wanted to listen. That's just the way it is and is the reason I respect these kinds of dates. Sure, you may not make it, and probably for good reasons. Nobody really knows what the reason is, and honestly nobody should care, instead I thank you not enforicing these dates and launching some junk. But some people just can't see that side of it, they know what they want and they want it now, but none of them are helping you guys create this thing, and probably are just like me and don't even begin to understand the process, but i respect the dates, even tho you didn't make it, the failure wasn't in not making it, the failure was in making it and launching garbage.
Before this one I haven't donated / pre purchased a game that was still in development. So based in that you guys are the only game company I have ever actually looked into what the company is promising and who they are made up of as opposed to judging a polished trailer and hard info.
Because of the tenets, Brad and my experience in EQ i was happy to pledge without that much thought. So I guess the the things i would answer the question with are...
1. Vision
2. Who is leading the project
3. Previous titles
Being in the age of information researching a company is easy and then you have to filter through the good and bad to try to understand what reviews or comments have substance and what doesn't. More so to that you then have to look at the way the company reacts to those comments and I was interested in looking into this right before i pledged.
I felt like any negativity about any previous experience regarding Brad was either honestly admitted to, graciously apologised for or articulately rebutted in ways where i felt completely comfortable to look past those comments and be happy to place trust in the job being done because the drive and passion is high!
We have to make mistakes to be become better, but more than that we have to humbly admit to our mistakes to truly grow from them!
When it comes to judging Pantheon, I will place an enormous amount of weight on how effectively they deliver "The Pantheon Difference." There are a lot of awesome features that I am really looking forward to that have been described on this page: https://www.pantheonmmo.com/game/pantheon_difference/
In order for Pantheon to truly be an MMO evolved (and not just an EQ redux) -- VR will not only need to deliver these features, but also implement them in a way that aligns with the various game tenets. I understand we're early in the process still but seeing or hearing commitment to these features is a big deal to me.
Dubah said:Kilsin said:zewtastic said:Kilsin said:Our goal is to be in alpha by the end of 2015, in beta during 2016, and to release the game in 2017. But this is not set in stone, and the above dates are subject to change."
How indeeed.
You judge on missed targets? If we had launched then we would not be here talking about Pantheon anymore as it wouldn't exist. ;)
And this is exactly why companies like to dodge giving dates. Because nothing is ever ready when they expect it to be, and you always got that one guy that wants to call you out on it, like you didn't say these are not set in stone.
I, on the other hand, even tho I have no experience making games and all that jazz, I understand that any date a developer gives is not set in stone. I've seen a lot of things go wrong when they get rushed, it happened in Afghanistan, they tried to rush an assault and 20 people got injured, and I told them we needed more time, nobody wanted to listen. That's just the way it is and is the reason I respect these kinds of dates. Sure, you may not make it, and probably for good reasons. Nobody really knows what the reason is, and honestly nobody should care, instead I thank you not enforicing these dates and launching some junk. But some people just can't see that side of it, they know what they want and they want it now, but none of them are helping you guys create this thing, and probably are just like me and don't even begin to understand the process, but i respect the dates, even tho you didn't make it, the failure wasn't in not making it, the failure was in making it and launching garbage.
Giving out dates set in stone if you are a game developer isn't wise.
We've seen this over the years, and if something messes up that goal behind the scenes, all hell breaks loose on the respective forums for that game.
If any of you have been around since Kickstarter, you've seen the team changes, and some of the lore changes. That's the growing pains of development.
It doesn't always go as smoothly as planned, and..being that this is a small team not backed by the BIG BOYS..I'm sure lack of funding from time to time...causes things to slow down.
I hope everyone realizes this. I sometimes see accusations of nefarious intentions in regards to the Dev team. People who don't work behind the scenes, have never developed a game of their own, and frankly think that game testing is all about early access, (because thats what some of the Devs on other games have implied) need to pay attention when we say..OFTEN that this is old school testing.
And if you want in, then we need your eyes and ears. :)
We're not only a community we are a team. :)
Cana
oneADseven said:When it comes to judging Pantheon, I will place an enormous amount of weight on how effectively they deliver "The Pantheon Difference." There are a lot of awesome features that I am really looking forward to that have been described on this page: https://www.pantheonmmo.com/game/pantheon_difference/
In order for Pantheon to truly be an MMO evolved (and not just an EQ redux) -- VR will not only need to deliver these features, but also implement them in a way that aligns with the various game tenets. I understand we're early in the process still but seeing or hearing commitment to these features is a big deal to me.
I'm not that interested in "new features", not that I don't like them, but I don't view them as essential.
I'm not looking for an EQ clone, but for a modern game that aims for the same goals that EQ was at it's time. Specific mechanics, UI, game system or such are to me just icing on the cake, but they aren't to me what will make it a great game.
I mean, I've seen some people (including you) very excited about colored mana hints, or such features, but to me it's too vague to be something I can see interest yet, or simply I don't consider it as either "necessary" or simply too complex to be properly balanced in every scenario, thus more dangerous for the game than good.
However, As I stated in some other topic, I'm not asking for much and I will be glad to be surprised in the good sense, which put my expectation to a realistic scale : a good looking, good gameplay, game with social interactions and a levelling that isn't just a timesink for real content. I'll be fine having simply a good open world, well done and immersive, over tons of features.
Of course this remain my own opinion and approach, but looking at current MMO that try to give now functionnalities to add minigames that people play for a few weeks before beeing bored, I don't see the value of trying to do better on a matter as much fragile.
MauvaisOeil said:oneADseven said:When it comes to judging Pantheon, I will place an enormous amount of weight on how effectively they deliver "The Pantheon Difference." There are a lot of awesome features that I am really looking forward to that have been described on this page: https://www.pantheonmmo.com/game/pantheon_difference/
In order for Pantheon to truly be an MMO evolved (and not just an EQ redux) -- VR will not only need to deliver these features, but also implement them in a way that aligns with the various game tenets. I understand we're early in the process still but seeing or hearing commitment to these features is a big deal to me.
I'm not that interested in "new features", not that I don't like them, but I don't view them as essential.
I'm not looking for an EQ clone, but for a modern game that aims for the same goals that EQ was at it's time. Specific mechanics, UI, game system or such are to me just icing on the cake, but they aren't to me what will make it a great game.
I mean, I've seen some people (including you) very excited about colored mana hints, or such features, but to me it's too vague to be something I can see interest yet, or simply I don't consider it as either "necessary" or simply too complex to be properly balanced in every scenario, thus more dangerous for the game than good.
However, As I stated in some other topic, I'm not asking for much and I will be glad to be surprised in the good sense, which put my expectation to a realistic scale : a good looking, good gameplay, game with social interactions and a levelling that isn't just a timesink for real content. I'll be fine having simply a good open world, well done and immersive, over tons of features.
Of course this remain my own opinion and approach, but looking at current MMO that try to give now functionnalities to add minigames that people play for a few weeks before beeing bored, I don't see the value of trying to do better on a matter as much fragile.
We all have different expectations. I know there is a fair amount of people that would be happy with an EQ redux but I am not one of them. I truly expect an evolved MMO experience and absolutely expect Pantheon to deliver the flagship features that have been promoted. I am also realistic and understand that it's possible that not everything will make it into the game ... but when it comes to setting the bar, this is something VR has already done for us. If we're talking about building outposts, non-instanced housing, or player run dungeons and regions, my expectations are a bit more tempered as they are clearly identified as "future features." Colored mana, progeny, perception, and the living codex are all very important aspects of the type of experience that I am looking to have with this game.