I think block and parry is mostly differentiated by the block being a dead-stop of an attack while a parry is making your opponents weapon change direction by altering the direction of the incoming hit.
The difference is that when blocking you absorb all the energy of the hit. Imagine someone doing an overhead swing at you and you hold a shield or a sword up in front of you and stop the attack fully.
If you parried the overhead swing you would angle your shield or your weapon and cause the overhead swing to go wide instead.
A parry enables you to also follow up with a riposte and would be more dangerous than an attack that is just stopped by blocking it.
Of course, a hundred things can happen in a melee fight. A blocked axe might get hooked and the opponent pulled in for a kick or fist strike, or blow parried wide might be followed up by a backhand strike or elbow.
My point though is that block isn't exclusive to shields, nor is parry exclusive to weapons. They are both defensive techniques which can be employed with both shield and weapons.
It would make more sense to me that both are under the same skill simply called Defense. Why? Because technically you can also block and parry using a good pair of bracers and/or gauntlets. It's about how good you are at defending yourself using block, parry and dodging all together. It doesn't really make sense to me to see them split up into individual skillsets. If detailing like that you could just as easily add a skill called 'Footwork' as well.
The number of different ways they allow to avoid damage depends on how they handle the way Hits are calculated and how much strain they want to put on the system. When you have all sorts of things that effect the outcome of an attack they need to either compound them all into 1 calculation, or they need to run a seperate calculation for each effect.
For example:
Let's say you have a 7% chance to block, a 12% chance to parry, a 18% chance to dodge. The mob on the other hand has a 21% chance to critical hit.
They could run a Randomized calculation where the game picks a number between 1-100.
If the number comes up 1-7 (7 numbers = 7%) it says "You Block". If the number comes up 8-19 (12 numbers = 12%) it says "You Parry". If the number comes up 20-37 (18 numbers = 18%) it says "You Dodge". If the number comes up 38-58 (21 numbers = 21%) it says "Mob Crits you". If the number comes up 39-100 (the rest of the 42%), it says "Mob Hits you".
This is how they did things back in the EQ days.
Once you start getting into really high numbers of these effects you start pushing that Normal Hit off the chart.
30% chance to block, 30% chance to parry, 30% chance to dodge. Mob has 21% chance to crit. You are already over 100% (111) in this calculation. Which means you would have 90% chance to avoid and 10% chance to be crit. But 0% chance to be hit for a normal hit. So you'd either be missed entirely, or the mob would get a Critical Hit.
Second way of dealing with Hit calculation: Each effect is it's own check.
System picks a Randomized number: If it's 1-7 then you Block. If it's 8-100 the system goes on to the next check.
System picks a Randomized number: If it's 1-12 then you Parry. If it's 13-100 the system goes on to the next check.
System picks a Randomized number: If it's 1-18 then you Dodge. If it's 19-100 the system goes on to the next check.
System picks a Randomzied number: If it's 1-21 then you get Crit. If it's 22-100 the system has run out of checks and simply counts it as a Hit.
This way allows for a much larger range of each type of avoidance and still leaves a chance for normal hits. You may not be hit very often but it could still happen. This also allows for them to add all sorts of other ways to avoid damage. Such as Absorb or Retaliate (Reposte) without running the risk of pushing the possibility of being hit at all off the check.
The downside is that this causes each attack to go through a calculation multiple (in this case 4) times which puts a strain on the system.
So you either have: 1 attack = 1 check. Or 1 attack = 4 checks.
Now think about ALL the attacks going on the server in a given moment. 10,000 players attacking = 10,000 checks or 10,000 players attacking = 40,000 checks. As the number of players on the server increase, the number of calculations it needs to do per second compounds in multiples.
Hehe the discussion about blocking as a skill has gone into a debate about what it is to block.
To bring us back on track, yes, I think blocking should be a skill that can be increased.
It would also be neat if there were advanced forms of blocking where you could, rarely, block and possibly make your opponent pushed back flat footed or off-balance, leaving them open to increased attacks.
I dont' like the idea of it being an active skill. I rather it be passive. I figured like in EQ, you gain points at your trainer that you can spend skilling up skills. If that ends up being ingame, then that can help. Maybe adding a zone where players can duel one another could be another. (No i'm not getting into pvp talk) I am talking about being able to duel someone and the first one to hit 25% hit points or something calls the duel. The idea that two players can go and train skills together, I like. I remember doing this in EQ for a few things, sometimes with a hireling. I think this is some ways to help out.
You could go out and grind on some weak mobs and slowly skill it up, or you can spent points and/or coins and skill up from a trainer, or you can take a friend and both go somewhere and train together.
But yet parry is a skill that uses the same idea. I'm not aware of any skills in EQ that made parry an active skill. It was passive and gained slowly. So, my opinon, it's not a stretch to add blocking, and doesn't make sense to have one and not the other as a skill.
So, to go into a deeper thought here. Parry is used to evade melee attacks. Block only works if you have a shield equipped, and is used to evade melee attack and projectiles. Maybe the roll chance is based on parry or block, which ever is higher, if they are at the same skill level then it uses the highest value of the two. So if you have 50 parry, 51 block and have a shield equipped you roll block. If you have 51 parry, 50 block, you roll parry. If you have 50 on both, then it rolls 50.
Question we really have to ask is:
Does it really matter HOW you prevent taking a hit as long as you actually prevent it?
Whether you dodge, parry or block an incoming attack the end result is still -> Damage avoided.
In DnD setting your defense value is all about AC.
Base value = 10AC
DEX modifier gives you additional defense value (e.g. +2)
Armor you wear gives you additional defense value (e.g. +4)
Shield you use gives you additional defense value (e.g. +2)
Total defense value, or armor class, would then be 10+2+4+2 = 18 AC.
An enemy attacking you has to get a d20 roll + their attack modifier which is =< 18AC
If they roll 18+ they hit... and then damage is calculated.
If they roll 17 or lower they miss... and no damage is calculated.
Whether it was the DEX (avoiding hit through moving, e.g. footwork and dodging), because they hit a tough part of your armor (e.g. bracers), your shield or you avoided the hit by blocking or parrying with your weapon is irrelevant. Certainly the DM would add flavor to the scene when describing it, but other than that it doesn't matter what caused them to miss.
Granted, you could flavor it by splitting it up and say that "If the enemy rolled..."
1-9 then it was your movement or weapon that blocked or parried the hit.
10-11 then it was you dodging the blow (Dex modifier)
12-17 then it was your armor that withstood the brunt of the attack (armor bonus)
16-17 then the attack was stopped by your shield (shield bonus).
At the end of the day though that would all be simple flavor. It would still be the total defensive value of 18AC which matters when determining a hit or not.
This is why I'm saying a Defense skill is all that is really necessary rather than inflating the skill tree with passive abilities that don't really mean anything other than different strings of text that get output in the chat.
Ghroznak said:Question we really have to ask is:
Does it really matter HOW you prevent taking a hit as long as you actually prevent it?
Whether you dodge, parry or block an incoming attack the end result is still -> Damage avoided.
In DnD setting your defense value is all about AC.
Base value = 10AC
DEX modifier gives you additional defense value (e.g. +2)
Armor you wear gives you additional defense value (e.g. +4)
Shield you use gives you additional defense value (e.g. +2)
Total defense value, or armor class, would then be 10+2+4+2 = 18 AC.
An enemy attacking you has to get a d20 roll + their attack modifier which is =< 18AC
If they roll 18+ they hit... and then damage is calculated.
If they roll 17 or lower they miss... and no damage is calculated.
Whether it was the DEX (avoiding hit through moving, e.g. footwork and dodging), because they hit a tough part of your armor (e.g. bracers), your shield or you avoided the hit by blocking or parrying with your weapon is irrelevant. Certainly the DM would add flavor to the scene when describing it, but other than that it doesn't matter what caused them to miss.
Granted, you could flavor it by splitting it up and say that "If the enemy rolled..."
1-9 then it was your movement or weapon that blocked or parried the hit.
10-11 then it was you dodging the blow (Dex modifier)
12-17 then it was your armor that withstood the brunt of the attack (armor bonus)
16-17 then the attack was stopped by your shield (shield bonus).
At the end of the day though that would all be simple flavor. It would still be the total defensive value of 18AC which matters when determining a hit or not.
This is why I'm saying a Defense skill is all that is really necessary rather than inflating the skill tree with passive abilities that don't really mean anything other than different strings of text that get output in the chat.
Hard to tell, complete binary statistics ( Hit or miss) tend to be badly received and poorly relied on. Even if in EQ classic, avoidance and mitigation weren't that different, We do not know yet how wil heavy armor play in Pantheon, however if it's like it used to be in EQ (and it seems to be like that according to the few info we had on weapon damage calculation), that means mitigation by armor will be not so different from avoidance, except it will probably follow a gaussian repartition around the median determined by your whole defense/armor against the opponent attack.
Usually raw avoidance was a "free card", meaning you could simply by "luck" negate a hit completely, however the discipline evasive was used a lot on bosses where their damage that could be mitigated were quite low, making not beeing hit a must in survival. I do not know yet if such calculation will be used again, as Pantheon is a whole new game but seems to take into account a lot of tabletop/mud calculation, including some of EQ's.
MauvaisOeil said:Hard to tell, complete binary statistics ( Hit or miss) tend to be badly received and poorly relied on. Even if in EQ classic, avoidance and mitigation weren't that different, We do not know yet how wil heavy armor play in Pantheon, however if it's like it used to be in EQ (and it seems to be like that according to the few info we had on weapon damage calculation), that means mitigation by armor will be not so different from avoidance, except it will probably follow a gaussian repartition around the median determined by your whole defense/armor against the opponent attack.
Usually raw avoidance was a "free card", meaning you could simply by "luck" negate a hit completely, however the discipline evasive was used a lot on bosses where their damage that could be mitigated were quite low, making not beeing hit a must in survival. I do not know yet if such calculation will be used again, as Pantheon is a whole new game but seems to take into account a lot of tabletop/mud calculation, including some of EQ's.
Damage mitigation would only be calculated after determining whether or not you actually get hit.
So first you take into account all defensive stats, check the attack against the defense. If it fails, then no damage calculation. If it succeeds then you calculate damage.
Then you take into account damage reduced based on armor type, or damage reduced due to resists against various attacks like elemental or poison and such.
But that part only happens after you checked for a hit or not.
**edit** I don't know what type of active defense the game will have, like actively block at the right time or something, but that would have to be treated on it's own calculation or as part of the overall Defense and/or mitigation.
I see it as:
Block - Block an attack (any, including projectile/directional spells) with a shield but possibly still take some light damage. (Anywhere from 50-80% mitigation or blocks a flat amount and excess damage is taken as "shock")
Parry - Redirect an incoming blow from an enemy wielding a weapon. An unarmed opponent (biting, clawing, punching etc) could not be parried.
Dodge - Dodge an attack altogether.
Resist - Resist some or all of the effects of incoming magic.
Defense - Take lower average damage from enemies. Basically someone highly skilled in defense knows how to more consistantly "roll with the punches" to lessen the impact of hits they can't avoid.
Having parry and block as two different skills means, for example, A paladin might have a higher block than parry, whereas a dire lord might have a higher parry change than block. Warrior would have both, so adding in the "if shield is equipped" means that blocking only works when he's using a shield, otherwise it uses parry. UO had some decent insite " https://uo.com/wiki/ultima-online-wiki/skills/parry/ " but had it the same skill.
So lets just say this:
Blocking with a shield:
Shield must be equipped
% Chance = (block skill) / 5, if less than 0 then chance is 0) (so for a skill cap of 225, you are looking at 45% chance to block)
(adding 5% if block is capped) (block skill)/4 + 5% = 47.25%)
Parry and Block:
Game makes two rolls, one for parry one for block, whatever is the highest is the skill that is used.
If parry follows 1-handed weapon parry forumla
If block follows block forumla
Parrying with a 1-handed weapon (including duel wielding):
uses same forumla as block but uses the parry skill instead.
(Adding 5% if parry is capped)(uses same forumla)
(adding 5% if duel-wielding) (49.6125% so lets just say 50%)
2-handed Parry:
Uses the same forumla as parry, block is disabled.
(adding 5% if parry is capped)
Now with that, you can play with different skill cap levels. Maybe a paladin has the highest possible block skill than the other tanks, maybe dire lord has the highest parry skill of them all, maybe warrior is balances. If for a warrior the skill cap for parry and block is 225, then you are looking at around 50% chance to block or parry depending on situation. Paladin might have 250 block, but only 200 parry. Reverse those for a Dire Lord. The % chance changes but you generally look at around 40-50% chance at cap.
Now other factions can be taken into consideration, buffs, debuffs, skills, abilities, my gear, weapons (maybe each type has a factor that effects the results).
This is just theory, but a way that could be looked at.
Again, I think block should be a skill just like parry and having classes have different max skill caps helps play towards each class and stuff.
Here is a tidbit from MMORPG.com:
oneADseven said:Here is a tidbit from MMORPG.com:
"Pantheon’s combat places a focus on preparation and awareness of the enemy. The player can actively dodge, block, or deflect attacks. Spell and ability pre-selection is critical to defeat encounters, as is forging alliances with other players. You won't want to be caught in the wilds of Terminus alone, but exploration of the vast and dramatically diverse world landscapes will be richly rewarding. Through exploration the player can uncover mysteries and unique adventures as well as acquire rare and exotic spells and abilities from dungeons and challenging encounters."
Hmmm, if this is the case I wonder if we'll have access to counter abilities if this is the case? Imagine you parry and get a prompt for a quick weapon jab since you effectively opened your opponent up!
I think that part rather refers to abilities like the counter attacks that existed in VG, where certain attacks from an NPC could trigger your "active counters". You still had passive dodge/parry etc if I remember correctly.
Sarim said:I think that part rather refers to abilities like the counter attacks that existed in VG, where certain attacks from an NPC could trigger your "active counters". You still had passive dodge/parry etc if I remember correctly.
Even block, at least it's the case of VGOemu, my only experience from Vanguard.
What the heck does it matter what you call the skill? Unless there's some actual mechanic that requires the player to do something to block, or parry, or dodge, or riposte, what does it matter? And good grief, it's pre-alpha, where in the world did this thought even come from?!?
edit: What even prompted this post, what caused this notion?
Ghroznak said:Also have to keep in mind that having the game run multiple calculations for a single attack is not ideal for overall performance of the game.
That kind of logic is trivial and has no real bearing on performance. Database queries and other expensive network calls are what cause issues.