If you listen to some of the livestreams...the Devs have mentioned this. That latest dungeon Black Rose keep was created with multi leveled players in mind. The higher you go in that Keep, the higher level the mobs are.
So if you are on the bottom floor, level 20 or whatever, be aware if you pull the guys you see upstairs..behind the railings, that they will be higher level than you, and could also cause a train. :) This has been discussed from the early years of these forums opening, things mentioned such as...reasons for high levels to come back to starter cities..things like high level dungeons below newbie cities...were thrown out as ideas for the Devs to consider.
Reminds me of Upper/ Lower Guk.
I don't know when you played EQ. But newbie zones were very popular for years. Everyone wanted to level alts and farm some easy plat or something brought people back. I didn't really read any of these replies, so I don't know if anyone covered it but, in TLP's the goal is to make progress, probably at least 70% of the population is rushing to be max level and get their bests before raiding. Afterwards, you rarely see alts, so experience newb zone business you'd have to be there at the start, otherwise, yes, it will be deserted.
Back to original EQ, newb zones were overpopulated for years. Hecl nearly every single zone was overpopulated lol, I started at least 5 or 6 alts and had no issues leveling them up, over the course of 6+ years, that being said some zones were more popular than others, such as crushbone and Gfay. That being said some of the more horrid/nothing to offer newb zones such as the ogre's and trolls starting area were deserted, but i bet if you went to Gfay/CB you'd find someone.
As far as this games way to counter this, you really can't. It's nature for people to want to work together, so why spread 100 people through 20 zones when you could just spread 100 people through 5 zones. It's people that do it, not the game itself.
Ghroznak said:
I don't have all the answers, but I do have the history and enough foresight to see that if Pantheon doesn't plan and design to avoid "dead zones" then it will happen in Pantheon as well. Maybe not in the first year, or second year, but it will happen.
The answer was the mentor system and the progeny system will help alleviate this but, other than a zone revamp ala Cazic Thule which isn't a good solution and has its own issues, the answer is of course there will be "dead zones". I think we all understand why these occur.
Content will become outdated as time goes on. Just like stat bloat or mudflation, you can slow it but not stop it. It is a given. Having a discussion without understanding that is pointless.
If you want to discuss the pros and cons of constantly revamping old content that is another discussion (personally I'm not a fan of that solution for a number of reasons). But outside of that...which is also only a temporary fix...underutilized areas of games will happen. It's not like discussing it can change the inevitable.
Ghroznak said:What I can do is understand why Everquests newbie zones and 'old world' became deserted.
Two primary things at play are:
1. Without influx of new players the established playerbase becomes top-heavy. That is to say everyone eventually reaches max level and then only plays their alts in pre-organized groups with already established guildmates or network of friends. These guild-groups and friend-groups are largely inaccessible to new players, plus a lot of experienced players (who are usually twinked and massively geared and buffed by other high level characts, alt accounts or friend/guildies) don't really want new playesr with poor skill and poor gear to join them.
2. The way the developer introduces content. In Everquest the new content was largely linear stacking. New content rarely offered content for new / low level players. It was mostly content aimed at pleasing the top-end / end-level player base. This caused the playerbase to keep shifting from one expansion to the next, thus leaving the previous content to rot away unused.
Crowfall is trying to address this issue by having campaigns that last for months, but eventually come to a conclusion. EQ progression servers similarly encourage a large number of players to start over again at square 1.
Perhaps Pantheon could occasionally start new servers/shards with some fresh content added to the existing zones. Of course, some people will prefer expansions to their current server/shard to starting over on a new one.
philo said:Ghroznak said:
I don't have all the answers, but I do have the history and enough foresight to see that if Pantheon doesn't plan and design to avoid "dead zones" then it will happen in Pantheon as well. Maybe not in the first year, or second year, but it will happen.
The answer was the mentor system and the progeny system will help alleviate this but, other than a zone revamp ala Cazic Thule which isn't a good solution and has its own issues, the answer is of course there will be "dead zones". I think we all understand why these occur.
Content will become outdated as time goes on. Just like stat bloat or mudflation, you can slow it but not stop it. It is a given. Having a discussion without understanding that is pointless.
If you want to discuss the pros and cons of constantly revamping old content that is another discussion (personally I'm not a fan of that solution for a number of reasons). But outside of that...which is also only a temporary fix...underutilized areas of games will happen. It's not like discussing it can change the inevitable.
Yeah, I agree that the revamps didn't work. There must be another way. I recall that EQ Next hoped to solve the problem with dynamic, player-driven content. We saw how well that worked out. :(
Nihimon said:I'm specifically talking about starting areas, as in, starting cities.bigdogchris said:And really, the "solution" that has come up in past games is make a single starting area and put everyone there to consolidate.
I’m sorry, but that is just putting on a band aid and not addressing the root cause.
Right now, before launch, is the time for the VR team to consider how they will handle this and decide how that they will build the game that keeps people around starting areas.
Maybe I'm misinterpreting them, but I have the sense that VR is already addressing this by mixing low-level and high-level content in the same zone - sometimes even in the same dungeon. I think that has to be because they're aware of the potential for empty zones if they don't give higher level characters good reason to go back.
Nihimon said:Iksar said:To quote Brad from a discussion about player housing...
Could you link that thread? I think I'd like to read it.
I found this post from Aradune.
This is the natural occurence when you have an ever expanding world, rather than a changing world. More zones will result in more space, which will result in the population spreading, which then will result in dead zones. This is what usually kills MMO's that last for a while, unless designed properly. Sadly, with what the team is going for, and hearing that they will always be trying to add new content, in a year or two we will probably have dead zones.
Watemper said:More zones will result in more space, which will result in the population spreading, which then will result in dead zones.
I'm not convinced that dead zones are inevitable.
I think your statement only holds true when the new zones actually have all the amenities players need between adventures. If instead the new zones have mostly adventure content, with minimal support content, then there's still a strong incentive to return to the older support zones, which keeps them from dying.
It seems there are two parts to this issue:
1. Activity level (number of people in the zone) of lower level zones/areas
2. Player level for lower levels to form groups and tackle difficult content
Activity level can be solved by adding things for higher level players to do in the lower level zones. This, of course, won't happen all the time but when it does it's pretty cool to see/experience. Imo, this one doesn't matter nearly as much as the second issue... having people to play with at your level.
We've seen quite a few solutions to this over the years... dungeon finder, zone/player scaling, repeatable world events, etc. While each does solve the problem to a degree, they destroy the feeling of the world and the sociality necessary to sustain an engaging community. Vanguard took the first step toward solving this, even though I don't think they realized it at the time.
The answer to dwindling lower level population is an expanded mentor system. Pantheon is answering this question in two ways: mentoring and progeny. For those not aware, the mentor system allows you to scale down your level to match a lower level player. The progeny system has you start a new character with a few things that carry over from the old character (details TBD).
I would like to see them take it a step further and do more with the mentoring system. Something that encourages high-level players to spend time helping or playing at lower levels. Of course, this can't be some gimmicky system with no tangible rewards. Incentives have to be more than just some platitude to say "see we have this". That's no better than LFD, zone scaling or the like. This would also help with the issue of community cohesion and new player development.
Nihimon said:Watemper said:More zones will result in more space, which will result in the population spreading, which then will result in dead zones.
I'm not convinced that dead zones are inevitable.
I think your statement only holds true when the new zones actually have all the amenities players need between adventures. If instead the new zones have mostly adventure content, with minimal support content, then there's still a strong incentive to return to the older support zones, which keeps them from dying.
It isn't inevitable, but with the what they said about the future of the game... ever exapnding content will create dead zones..period. That will always be the outcome. Now for newbie zones that will be the case when they open up new areas pertaining to new races. Also, once the game gets soo big they might do what they did in EQ and have a general dungeon start area with all classes...thus resulting in dead zones. The way of stopping this is to make all starting cities relevant to all players somehow, like the local Auction House stuff, unless there is a favorite spot. So depends on design heavily...very heavily
If they focus on building up much more than building out then it won't be an issue for many many years. Evolving the landscape more than expanding it.
As for dead zones? It's possible but not inevitable, there were a fair number of dead zones in EQ but that was due to design; too far from bind points and/or too risky/tedious for the rewards.
Looking at a few zones from early EQ:
Najena - Far from bind points for non-evil races (until Temple of Solusek was added), needed many keys to traverse the dungeon which was also full of traps including a prison you can get stuck in, no terribly noteworthy items compared to others in the same level bracket.
Dalnir - Far from bind points, dungeon itself was sort of a trap for anyone without gate since once you drop down a floor the only way out was all the way at the very bottom past every mob, weak itemization compared to others in level bracket.
Befallen - Poor itemization, needed many keys to get through, caster mobs that cast fear.
Splitpaw - Poor itemization, weak offering of items compared to others in level bracket, can get stuck in a prison cell, dangerous caster mobs.
@Watemper
"It isn't inevitable, but with the what they said about the future of the game... ever exapnding content will create dead zones..period. That will always be the outcome. Now for newbie zones that will be the case when they open up new areas pertaining to new races. Also, once the game gets soo big they might do what they did in EQ and have a general dungeon start area with all classes...thus resulting in dead zones. The way of stopping this is to make all starting cities relevant to all players somehow, like the local Auction House stuff, unless there is a favorite spot. So depends on design heavily...very heavily - end quote
General dungeon start area, that would be the tutorial they added later on...when was that around about Luclin? Yes, there's been discussion about that on previous threads over the years here too. The tutorial allowed you do do some quests that would get you a decent weapon and armor. If you didn't want to do that tutorial as you intend on creating several alts, there was/is a toggle where you just go straight into the regular start area of the game..and go from there. :)
Cana
Iksar said:If they focus on building up much more than building out then it won't be an issue for many many years. Evolving the landscape more than expanding it.
As for dead zones? It's possible but not inevitable, there were a fair number of dead zones in EQ but that was due to design; too far from bind points and/or too risky/tedious for the rewards.
Looking at a few zones from early EQ:
Najena - Far from bind points for non-evil races (until Temple of Solusek was added), needed many keys to traverse the dungeon which was also full of traps including a prison you can get stuck in, no terribly noteworthy items compared to others in the same level bracket.
Dalnir - Far from bind points, dungeon itself was sort of a trap for anyone without gate since once you drop down a floor the only way out was all the way at the very bottom past every mob, weak itemization compared to others in level bracket.
Befallen - Poor itemization, needed many keys to get through, caster mobs that cast fear.
Splitpaw - Poor itemization, weak offering of items compared to others in level bracket, can get stuck in a prison cell, dangerous caster mobs.
It was also due to starting locations.
Starting as a Barbarian in Halas was horrible. Not many players who went barbarian, even fewer who were in low levels and as a new player you had no chance getting through the tunnels to reach Qeynos. Which meant you were stranded. Erudites on Odus were no better off, especially when most of the action happened near Freeport and Kelethin anyways.
And I agree with the itemization. I loved the idea of Befallen but the loot was garbage and meant you were just there for XP, or as a necro/SK for the bonechips.
Itemization is really important for drawing players to an area. A dungeon can be as well designed and beautiful as you want, but players aren't there for photo-ops and sightseeing.
Another thing worth noting on itemization is that some mobs in EQ only dropped a very few select items which were only usable for a few classes. This meant some people would only join groups for those particular mobs in hopes of getting a drop to loot, and ignored the other camps. Having mobs have a chance to drop something unique for all, or at least most, classes would also aid in motivating players to work together rather than be picky about which dungeon they go to and what camps in a dungeon they are willing to join.
Ghroznak said:It was also due to starting locations.
Starting as a Barbarian in Halas was horrible. Not many players who went barbarian, even fewer who were in low levels and as a new player you had no chance getting through the tunnels to reach Qeynos. Which meant you were stranded. Erudites on Odus were no better off, especially when most of the action happened near Freeport and Kelethin anyways.
And I agree with the itemization. I loved the idea of Befallen but the loot was garbage and meant you were just there for XP, or as a necro/SK for the bonechips.
Itemization is really important for drawing players to an area. A dungeon can be as well designed and beautiful as you want, but players aren't there for photo-ops and sightseeing.
Another thing worth noting on itemization is that some mobs in EQ only dropped a very few select items which were only usable for a few classes. This meant some people would only join groups for those particular mobs in hopes of getting a drop to loot, and ignored the other camps. Having mobs have a chance to drop something unique for all, or at least most, classes would also aid in motivating players to work together rather than be picky about which dungeon they go to and what camps in a dungeon they are willing to join.
Eh, I never had much of a problem with Barbarian or Erudite starting locations. It certainly wasn't as popular or bustling (speaking of...bolstering Western Antonica in an early expansion would have been great) as Eastern Antonica or Faydwer but Blackburrow (at least on my server) was always pretty packed with groups so it wasn't hard to hang around until mid-late teens before heading east. It just happened that humans and neutral/good elves lucked out a little more than the other races when it came to needing less early travel.
I'm not sure each camp needs to have something for everyone, but we will have to see what the community standard for loot is. I feel a fair part of the bustling EQ economy was due to groups (PUGs) having FFA on rare drops where everyone can roll. It both eliminates the need to be in a specific camp to get a drop you want because any camp could net you a drop that you could put toward getting what you needed while at the same time it allowed more items to flow onto the market more regularly as often someone in the group won the roll who couldn't use the item/didn't need it, so it quickly found its way to the player market for those who couldn't get into a highly contested named camp to begin with.