I loved the way EQOA handled stat point distribution and would be thrilled if the same option were to exist in Pantheon.
I was reading somewhere for this game that they reduced the stat points from 80 to 8 and that each point should make a significant difference.
Read it in this https://pantheonmmo.com/newsletter/2018_march_armor_101/
It was regarding armor and stats gained from armor. But whether you increase stats from armor, or from leveling up and getting to apply a stat point every this or that level the result would be the same.
This is what it says specifically:
We want to introduce stats slowly and make each point of increase impactful. To this end, a bit over a year ago we cut our base attribute amounts from the standard 80 down to 8. Going from 8 to 10 strength is a big deal and we want it to feel like a big deal for your player's power and performance.
In EQ you don't add stat points as you level. Physical and mental attributes are set by racial makeup + some limited manual customisation to perhaps 'suit' the chosen class. The only way to increase attributes is via gear with stat bonuses and temporary magicks.
This allows for more control and ease of balancing I believe. Also stops the 'inflation' of numbers that can happen if not careful leading monsters needing 1,000,000 health points and characters doing 10,000 damage per hit, which in turn makes banding and scaling tricky etc etc
Skills, however will grow, but mostly with usage. One-Handed slash may start at 5 and the max rise by 5 every level (which you will earn each level by using a one-handed slash weapon). You can manually assign a few points to skills every level but you'd mostly reserve those for skills that are new at those levels (maybe you gain the Dodge skill at level 20) or ones you want to give a boost (maybe you neglected Divination in previous levels and it never seems to catch up).
The Everquest way seemed to work well. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but this approach was a good part of the reason you had more flexibility in the encounters you'd take on, ranging from total noobs able to solo monsters only one or two levels below them, but experienced groups able to kill monsters several levels above them.
disposalist said:In EQ you don't add stat points as you level.t
I said EQOA not EQ, and trust me you do place stat points.
We want to introduce stats slowly and make each point of increase impactful. To this end, a bit over a year ago we cut our base attribute amounts from the standard 80 down to 8. Going from 8 to 10 strength is a big deal and we want it to feel like a big deal for your player's power and performance.
Makes me think about the way D&D did it back when we only had pen and paper and a set of dice. A baby would have a Strength of 1, the average Adult was Strength of 9, and a massive muscle guy like Dwayne "The Rock" Johnson was only strength of 18. Anything higher than this was considered 'Super Human' and was only achieved through super awesome items. And even just getting 19 or 20 strength was a huge bonus over 18.
I remember the original D&D system. And the original AD&D system also for that matter.
If the game gives statistic increases it would be best if the player had a choice of where to put them. Then again, it could be said that I have never met a customization option I didn't like.
Whether it matters depends on the class and the statistics, of course. If only one attribute helps a class more than trivially and there is no hard cap limiting it, almost all of us will just take that attribute.
I haven't heard too much of this topic in the forums but I'm glad to hear the scaling down of stat numbers. I would hope that this mirrors EQ in the sense that your character's starting stats are static, and won't be added to as you level. I wouldn't mind adding a +1 to stat on plateau levels: 10, 20, 30, 40, 50. But keep it very limited.
With that being said, it will be very important to know what stats help which spells before we create our characters. Specifically in regards to enchanters, where charm may be very impoartant. Will charm be charisma-based, or intelligence-based, or something else?
I know stat point distribution is important to the min/max community. I’ve never really bought into that because I don’t like that philosophy of gameplay and I don’t like “rerolling” character mechanics which inevitably are added because people can’t decide what they want.
I’d rather see a system tied to your skills that increases your stats based on your skill utilization rather than an arbitrary process. I think that is a more pragmatic and fits character growth more accurately. A little bit of randomness is important.
That would leave using equipment and spells as the primary method for people to customize their characters attributes. If you deicide you don't like a certain build, you just change equipment.
IMO starting statistics should be permanent. Meaning no option to reroll because you change your mind the way some character customization systems like AA let you respec.
Also IMO - I never say IMHO because I *have* no humble opinions - starting statistics should be significant enough that they are always relevevant. Even in the endgame they should have a measurable impact on your performance. But they shouldn't be so major that anyone but a dedicated min-maxer would care.
But it is hard to be sure without knowing more about how the attributes will work. Take an early AD&D character for example. A fighter with an exceptionally high strength of 18/00 would be a whole LOT more capable than one with a strength of 16 and one with a strength of 8 might have trouble killing the goose the party wanted to cook for dinner. If someone made strength their low attribute for roleplaying reasons or because they wanted a challenge (both very legitimate reasons if the rest of the party accepted it - AD&D parties tended to be static - the same players almost every session) it was entirely appropriate that the game made the character a lot weaker. Pantheon doing the same thing would be fine as long as the player was told at character creation what the statistics meant.
As an aside I once ran a game where the party thief did fight the goose before dinner. The thief was pathetically weak, due to unlucky rolls. The goose used scratch scratch bite and almost won. Bad AD&D perhaps but good entertainment - the party loved it and the thief and I still discuss it after 40 years (we were married at the time and still are).
Agreeing with Dorotea, but to make it worthwile and effective not to be able to reroll them, they must all have different impact.
I wont speak too much of the AD&D Strength exemple, especially because warriors were the only ones having acces to the 18 to 18-00 score and it was, by itself, a scale of too much. (Because you were double dipping on a very lucky stat roll, to make it even more of a lucky roll.)
Simply taking 3.0 D&D rules : Putting 18 in STR as a warrior was a good thing, but you weren't too much impaired if you only had 14 and your character was completely viable, only having -2 to hit and damage (or -3 in damage with a two handed weapon), and especially because your points assigned somewhere else HAD an impact on some other aspect :
Dex would bring you AC (unless heavy armor wearing), reflex saves, higher modifier on dex skills rolls.
Con would bring you HP, vitality saves, higher modifier on con skills rolls
Int would bring you more skill points, access to some good fighting feats (Combat expertise, as an example), and higher modifier on int skills rolls
Wis would bring you higher will saves, and higher modifier on wis skills rolls
Cha would bring your higher modifiers on cha skills rolls, which can be good depending of your social interaction with NPC
In a sense, in this system, no stat was really lost or put in a basket where it gave litteraly nothing. Of course a warrior would value STR>CON>DEX>INT>WIS>CHA in order of preference, but you could really shine with non overfocused builds, because you had more tools in situations where a typical warrior would be completely overwhelmed.
I fear in MMO's, it's hard to make every stat mean something for every character, thus making points allocation bring litteraly nothing if bad spent (example : Agi in EQ1 had little to no benefit on armor ouside a very low cap that only hindered superclumsy races like ogre, troll, erudites or barbarian. All others had enough base agi not to even bother increasing it).
If STR is damage, if DEX is crit chance, if AGI is attack rate, if CON is Health, if INT is hit chance, if WIS is critical damage or striketrought chance, and CHA is idontknowhy, then you can have a system were even if you spend you points in a stat that is less efficient for your class, you results a benefit in some situation.
But if only STR, DEX and CON benefit non magical classes, then you end up making any other choices a poor one.
Traziun said:Coming from EQOA, the main feature that made the character yours was you were able to place your own stat points when you level up, I loved that aspect, anyone else like it or do you prefer when the game does it for you?
Could buy them at your trainer in Everquest too.
Traziun said:disposalist said:In EQ you don't add stat points as you level.t
I said EQOA not EQ, and trust me you do place stat points.
Yes, but Pantheon is based on EQ (and Vanguard) and I believe they are going for a method similar to EQ in this regard. That's why I commented about EQ. Sorry if that was confusing.
CanadinaXegony said:Traziun said:Coming from EQOA, the main feature that made the character yours was you were able to place your own stat points when you level up, I loved that aspect, anyone else like it or do you prefer when the game does it for you?
Could buy them at your trainer in Everquest too.
Stat points? That was just skill points (training), no?
disposalist said:CanadinaXegony said:Traziun said:Coming from EQOA, the main feature that made the character yours was you were able to place your own stat points when you level up, I loved that aspect, anyone else like it or do you prefer when the game does it for you?
Could buy them at your trainer in Everquest too.
Stat points? That was just skill points (training), no?
You are correct.. Stat point where picked and distibuted at character creation (STR, CHA, WIS, INT, STA, DEX)
Skill points were then awarded (5 per level IIRC), and were assignable to available skills (1HS, 2HS, 1HB, 2HB, INVOCATION, ALTERATION, ABJURATION, etc....)
Traziun said:Coming from EQOA, the main feature that made the character yours was you were able to place your own stat points when you level up, I loved that aspect, anyone else like it or do you prefer when the game does it for you?
I love this. So sad that so many games, even off-line RPG's are taking this away from us.
I love purposly nerfing myself. But even more so, I love having ultimate control of MY character. What I don't love or want is for the game, to make my High-Elf Warrior have Intelligence every level, just because he's a High Elf.
Kittik said:Traziun said:Coming from EQOA, the main feature that made the character yours was you were able to place your own stat points when you level up, I loved that aspect, anyone else like it or do you prefer when the game does it for you?
I love this. So sad that so many games, even off-line RPG's are taking this away from us.
I love purposly nerfing myself. But even more so, I love having ultimate control of MY character. What I don't love or want is for the game, to make my High-Elf Warrior have Intelligence every level, just because he's a High Elf.
Good news! If Pantheon follows the EQ way (and I don't see why not) then you can pick a gnome with low strength and stamina and play a warrior and choose to add your 30 customisation points to intelligence or something useless straight away.
After that you won't get any more stat points and you can choose to wear armor that doesn't give you better strength, stamina or whatever. You could even not wear armor!
Traziun said:Coming from EQOA, the main feature that made the character yours was you were able to place your own stat points when you level up, I loved that aspect, anyone else like it or do you prefer when the game does it for you?
I liked how EQOA did stat points as well, and I think it would be cool to be able to allocate them in Pantheon. We would just need a very clear description of which stats do what for which classes, so we know what we're investing in when we allocate.
Nihimon said:disposalist said:... you can pick a gnome... and play a warrior...
It looks like that's not going to be possible.
Aw. Ok, something equally inappropriate... Halfling warrior. Dwarf enchanter? Either way, my point is I'm sure you'll be able to pick less-than-ideal race-class combos and compound your fun with *not* compensating with additional manually allocated points. If you really want to...
dorotea said:I remember the original D&D system. And the original AD&D system also for that matter.
If the game gives statistic increases it would be best if the player had a choice of where to put them. Then again, it could be said that I have never met a customization option I didn't like.
Whether it matters depends on the class and the statistics, of course. If only one attribute helps a class more than trivially and there is no hard cap limiting it, almost all of us will just take that attribute.
off topic, but original ad&d had the percentages for fighters, so 18-19 str was really a 6 point jump (01-50, 51-75, 76-90, 91-99, 00 - iirc) so bonuses went from +1, +2 to +3, +7
