Given the game's emphasis on grouping, I think it could be useful to have information at login on the current quaternary class ratios on the servers. Even logged into a particular server, it would be nice to be able to type a command that gave you that information at any given point in time. My reasoning is that it could affect which server I choose to log into, which of my alts I play at a given time, or even which classes I choose to create.
For example, if 8:4:2:1 reflects the dps:crowd control:tank:healer distribution on my guild's preferred server during my usual play times, I am more likely to create a cleric than a wizard as my main. I realize that this gets tricky with the hybrid classes. I guess each class could be associated with a primary role among the quarternary roles, but maybe there is a more sophisticated way of doing it that considers percentages of roles that hybrids play.
That's an interesting idea, but brings up a lot of questions:
Are you asking for a server's total archtype population? Many accounts will have various alts, including characters that might not get past character creation for the sole purpose of holding a particular name for further use.
If you are asking for the current online population, that wouldn't be very helpful either unless you could narrow the scope into a particular level range. Otherwise people could think that there are way too many tanks online, and decide not to hop their tank, only to find out that many of those tanks are much lower or higher levels and couldn't compete for groups.
I'm also a little confused how you bring up your guild's "preferred" server. It is my assumption that when we create a character, it will be forever bound to that server so you wouldn't be able to decide which server you wanted to play on that particular day. I suppose I could be wrong in this regard, but would be surprised if so.
All in all, an interesting idea but I think we would all be better served to simply log in to find out the lay of the land. And as far as making that initial decision of which server to bind your future to, looking at a snap shot in time to make that decision might not be very helpful either as it could quickly change in a week or month, and a year down the road would likely be very different in composition.
randomrob82 said:Are you asking for a server's total archtype population? Many accounts will have various alts, including characters that might not get past character creation for the sole purpose of holding a particular name for further use.
If you are asking for the current online population, that wouldn't be very helpful either unless you could narrow the scope into a particular level range. Otherwise people could think that there are way too many tanks online, and decide not to hop their tank, only to find out that many of those tanks are much lower or higher levels and couldn't compete for groups.
I am referring to the current online population, but you make a good point about the levels.
randomrob82 said:I'm also a little confused how you bring up your guild's "preferred" server. It is my assumption that when we create a character, it will be forever bound to that server so you wouldn't be able to decide which server you wanted to play on that particular day. I suppose I could be wrong in this regard, but would be surprised if so.
Depends on the game. In BDO you can log into different servers with the same character, and you can switch servers every 15 minutes, but guilds usually have a preferred server for group missions.
Hauskat said:randomrob82 said:Are you asking for a server's total archtype population? Many accounts will have various alts, including characters that might not get past character creation for the sole purpose of holding a particular name for further use.
If you are asking for the current online population, that wouldn't be very helpful either unless you could narrow the scope into a particular level range. Otherwise people could think that there are way too many tanks online, and decide not to hop their tank, only to find out that many of those tanks are much lower or higher levels and couldn't compete for groups.
I am referring to the current online population, but you make a good point about the levels.
If they add this information it certainly wouldn't be difficult to break it down into level ranges rather than just giving an overall total. It makes a fair bit of sense, especially for character creation where it might make sense to have both the current online and the overall population numbers available.
I like the idea, both for character creation and for choosing what alt you maybe want to play today or at the particular time slot.
Talking of time slots, it would also be useful to know from historical data what proportions of what classes are played at what time so you could ask the question: -
"I'll have a couple of hours tomorrow to play. What class would be most likely to get a group and at what time?"
Interesting concept in terms of choosing to log into a main or alt or even a crafter. It saves the seconds of effort of logging back to the log-in screen to choose a different toon.
I guess I am not relating to the more modern games mentioned with a guild being on multiple servers? Does that exist? My general MMO history had 1 server for the guild and one server only. Even in cases of faction locked games a seperate server to play that faction didn't occur until years after release and it never went farther than dabbling in another faction. (Think in terms of WoW where guild was Horde but some few guildies would eventually role Alliance and dabble, or DAoC where the guild was Midgard but some members would want to try Hibernia or Albania classes out on a separate server).
This idea also has merit in terms of longer term demographics. Have each account owner declare a main and all other toons are alts, name placeholders, or bank bots. Options could include; total demographics of online and offline mains, quaternary ratios of those currently online (incorporate a level slider so you can pick min/max level), and maybe even proportion of main vs alts. Taking data a step further, show historical trends to help you choose a server, class, race, level range of characteror even craft type. Although, that would be more for those coming into the game fresh post-launch with no established guild affiliations yet.
I understand the thought process but I recommend you pick a class you will enjoy playing the most, rather than the class type played the least.
That ^ thought process seems like it will lead to limiting the duration you might be willing to play. What if the demographic shifts a year later and now your class in no longer in demand? I'm going in expecting to have years of /played time on 1 character over the long run, This isn't a game like wow or some other current mmos that will lend itself to a person maxing out a bunch of characters on a bunch of servers.
Online server populations during specific hours is a whole other thing. That used to work itself out because servers would be separated by location because of ping levels and lag times. Now that it doesn't matter anymore, breaking down online population numbers by timezone can be helpful.
philo said:I understand the thought process but I recommend you pick a class you will enjoy playing the most, rather than the class type played the least.
That ^ thought process seems like it will lead to limiting the duration you might be willing to play. What if the demographic shifts a year later and now your class in no longer in demand? I'm going in expecting to have years of /played time on 1 character over the long run, This isn't a game like wow or some other current mmos that will lend itself to a person maxing out a bunch of characters on a bunch of servers.
Online server populations during specific hours is a whole other thing. That used to work itself out because servers would be separated by location because of ping levels and lag times. Now that it doesn't matter anymore, breaking down online population numbers by timezone can be helpful.
I tend to have lots of alts. I can't imagine only playing one class or race when they all look such fun...
I'll end up playing more (if that's possible) if I have matchmaking info that helps me spend less time LFG.
philo said:I understand the thought process but I recommend you pick a class you will enjoy playing the most, rather than the class type played the least.
With Black Desert Online, all the classes feel the same to me. Really looking forward to Pantheon's old school approach where everybody can't do everything themselves.
I don't know what class I will play in Pantheon. There are a lot to choose from. I can think of several I might enjoy. Knowing what was in demand might help me narrow it down.
Dashed said:This idea also has merit in terms of longer term demographics. Have each account owner declare a main and all other toons are alts, name placeholders, or bank bots. Options could include; total demographics of online and offline mains, quaternary ratios of those currently online (incorporate a level slider so you can pick min/max level), and maybe even proportion of main vs alts. Taking data a step further, show historical trends to help you choose a server, class, race, level range of characteror even craft type. Although, that would be more for those coming into the game fresh post-launch with no established guild affiliations yet.
Yes, you have pointed out many ways the information could be useful or expanded.
Hauskat said:Given the game's emphasis on grouping, I think it could be useful to have information at login on the current quaternary class ratios on the servers. Even logged into a particular server, it would be nice to be able to type a command that gave you that information at any given point in time. My reasoning is that it could affect which server I choose to log into, which of my alts I play at a given time, or even which classes I choose to create.
For example, if 8:4:2:1 reflects the dps:crowd control:tank:healer distribution on my guild's preferred server during my usual play times, I am more likely to create a cleric than a wizard as my main. I realize that this gets tricky with the hybrid classes. I guess each class could be associated with a primary role among the quarternary roles, but maybe there is a more sophisticated way of doing it that considers percentages of roles that hybrids play.
Hmm ..initially I like the idea. But what worries me is that it might turn into a way to know how many players are on the server. Say you identify 1000 unique players that are healers, at that point you could do that math to know how many people are on the server. Server population #'s are a big secret now days for some reason so I really doubt this idea would be implemented. It's a good idea though.
disposalist said:philo said:I understand the thought process but I recommend you pick a class you will enjoy playing the most, rather than the class type played the least.
That ^ thought process seems like it will lead to limiting the duration you might be willing to play. What if the demographic shifts a year later and now your class in no longer in demand? I'm going in expecting to have years of /played time on 1 character over the long run, This isn't a game like wow or some other current mmos that will lend itself to a person maxing out a bunch of characters on a bunch of servers.
Online server populations during specific hours is a whole other thing. That used to work itself out because servers would be separated by location because of ping levels and lag times. Now that it doesn't matter anymore, breaking down online population numbers by timezone can be helpful.
I tend to have lots of alts. I can't imagine only playing one class or race when they all look such fun...
I'll end up playing more (if that's possible) if I have matchmaking info that helps me spend less time LFG.
I wouldn't have "lots" of alts but I'll almost certainly have 2-3 covering different roles. If I see the level range my tank is in has a desperate need for tanks and I'm not jumping in game for some specific reason that information would point me in a direction that benefits the community.
I like this idea, but I think it may be better suited as a community supported add-on, since I don't think it would be something the devs currently would want to prioritize their time working on at the moment. This is assuming that add-ons will be a thing VR allows in Pantheon, which I admit I do not know.
I have a lot of issues with what you are asking. Basically you are turning "FoTM(onth)" into "FoTM(oment)". Creating a class on the basis of a snapshot is in its self not logical. You are wanting to make a decision on something that will be in flux but even greater flux if this ratio (which will also be mutable) is available.
We all know what classes will be in demand this does not mean that you should play them if you don't enjoy the role they fill (at least not to me). This goes back to the old MMORPG adage "Play what you like!".
Also, it's on you to make connections on your server so that you as a player are in demand no matter what your role, this and the ethos of VR #communitymatters is what Pantheon is all about, community. Which leads me to the awful idea of being able to skip servers when server B needs more heals than server A this is the antithesis of what Pantheon is about.
Let's make a community by acting like a community, being sociable, being friendly, being helpful and having knowledge of your class is far more puissant then a ratio snapshot.
Zyellinia said:I If I see the level range my tank is in has a desperate need for tanks and I'm not jumping in game for some specific reason that information would point me in a direction that benefits the community.
This ^ won't matter. I encourage you to read up on the mentor system. A higher lvl player will be able to group with lower lvl players in any lvl range to earn exp.
I'm guessing this game will require full mastery of your class just to get by. Again, I'm going to recommend focusing a bit more than you might be accustomed to. In games like this where the devs are pushing to make reputation matter, your reputation could take a hit if you don't play your class as well as you could because you have to many alts. Look at the recent streams. It is a microcosm.
I think this would be a nice addition to the idea that Brad mentioned in the Pax East about what I interpreted as the "match-making" interface which is more geared towards player times, as well as common general out-of-game interests (like sports teams).
So I understand your suggestion to be something like adding a function to find out the average population of classes on your server at your play times- and make decisions from there regarding character creation.
At first, however I think it will be those drawn to their class for organic reasons, and the class population wont be set since it will be new so, non-standard groups would be possibilities and a way to learn strengths and weaknesses at the slightly forgiving newbie stage.
philo said:Zyellinia said:I If I see the level range my tank is in has a desperate need for tanks and I'm not jumping in game for some specific reason that information would point me in a direction that benefits the community.
This ^ won't matter. I encourage you to read up on the mentor system. A higher lvl player will be able to group with lower lvl players in any lvl range to earn exp.
I'm guessing this game will require full mastery of your class just to get by. Again, I'm going to recommend focusing a bit more than you might be accustomed to. In games like this where the devs are pushing to make reputation matter, your reputation could take a hit if you don't play your class as well as you could because you have to many alts. Look at the recent streams. It is a microcosm.
For new players, yeah, you're right and this is good advice. Even as a very experienced MMORPG player having several alts can be a challenge to your effectiveness.
But I imagine a lot of players will be old pros with multiple alts. For them, I wonder if you get any progression for mentoring? Do you get XP? One thing you probably won't get is decent loot, because 1) the gear will be lower level than you actually want and 2) You'd surely feel really mean taking any loot from lower level less experienced players.
As I type this, I realise players that do mentoring won't be doing it for any 'reward' - I certainly wouldn't, aside from that lovely warm feeling of helping others and the game itself - but I'm thinking if you want to encourage mentoring to be as popular as possible, what could be other 'rewards'?
Aaaand as I type this I realise I've gone off topic hehe. Sorry!
To get it slightly back on, the OP idea would help those wanting to mentor! If you find that there's not many folks of your level wanting your character, you can look to see what other level ranges might want you and go hang around their zones to do mentoring ;)
Zyellinia said:I wouldn't have "lots" of alts but I'll almost certainly have 2-3 covering different roles. If I see the level range my tank is in has a desperate need for tanks and I'm not jumping in game for some specific reason that information would point me in a direction that benefits the community.
That would be my hope, that such information would help balance out the quaternary class ratios both on a given server at any time as well as across the servers.
I'd love to be able to see the data for hours played by server by class, where I could pick a duration (say, a month) and a time window (say, 6:00 PM to 10:00 PM Central), but only for personal curiosity. I don't think I'd be making decisions about what I'm going to play based on that data.
You're right that it's good information to have, but this is easily done via informal polling of the player base. You're unlikely to see hugh differences server to server. Just ask people how easy it is to get a spot in a group for x role if you want a feel for what's in demand. No need to spend precious development resources coding a solution that may ultimately be less useful than anecdoal evidence. For example, say the Necromancer is counted as a DPS class, and it's very popular but mostly as a solo character. That's going to inflate the DPS numbers but not really be refleted in group demand for DPS.
Typical issue in group-oriented games is finding the two key roles; Tank + Healer. In Everquest the CC also became an integral part in the higher levels, specifically either Shaman (for slows+root) or Enchanter (for Mez, Charm + root).
I played several different roles in Everquest. Mostly Bard, Enchanter, Ranger and Shadowknight.
As an Enchanter I would have offers to join a group within minutes after logging in. With the Bard I'd get groups pretty fast as well. Then with the Ranger getting groups became a waiting game, or simply taking initative and forming one myself by inviting tank+healer first, and then DPS later. Shadowknight was about the same as the Ranger, however as the Shadow Knight I got to know quite a few healers so once I had a healer with me all we had to do would be "fill up" with DPS.
Not sure exactly what the group compositions will be in Pantheon, but from a few of the videos I've watched it seems tank+healer is still the core of a group, and CC in important 3rd.
This means every single group in the whole game will require 1 tank, 1 healer and most will require CC (so about 2/3 will need CC, mostly don't need CC in lower levels, at least not in EQ).
At the end of the day the simple fact is... when the tank or healer leaves your group is no longer combat viable until you find a replacement.
Simply put the group composition is 1:1:1:3 (tank:healer:CC:DPS). That means for every 3 DPS you need 1 tank, 1 healer, 1 CC. So server population should reflect that distribution.
However, here comes the difficult part. Even if you have a perfect 1:1:1:3 distribution for the server as a whole that doesn't mean the distribution is even as far as levels go. If all the tanks are level 1 then you're not going to get a tank for your level 30 group (to make an extreme example).
Class distribution therefore has to be measured with levels in mind, e.g. how many tanks, healers, CC and DPS are there for levels 10-20? Or 20-30? How many there are in total only gives you an uncertain indicator on how many will there be in total when everyone reaches max level (but this is uncertain due to the fact that some stop playing before they reach the end levels, others change servers or change to another class as their main, e.t.c).
At the end of the day finding a good distribution between the classes is very hard. Sure a number telling you how many of each class, within a level span, are logged on at the current time will help you decide what to play or what character to create, but those numbers will inevitably change over the course of your play.
Plus, many people start alternate characters precisely because there is a shortage of a specific class. E.g. they start playing a druid because their guild or group of friends want to have a second healer available for whenever their regular healers are not online, or when their regular healer feels like playing a different class. So these numbers will flucutate all the time.
Here is my opinion though:
Play what YOU want to play, make friends, join a guild, create a network of people you know. That way you will always be able to get into a group or join the action somewhere. Heck, sometimes in Everquest we'd bring a rogue into the group even if we really needed a CC. Why? Because the rogue was a nice person and always helped others anytime they asked (plus rogues did a crapton of damage). So it's not always about the best class or min-maxing. Sometimes it's just about friendship and playing together. Plus it's the "out of the box" experiences that often becomes the most memorable one.
I'll this reply with a small story which reflects the previous sentence. I was playing my level 65 Enchanter in Everquest and were trying to get a group formed in a level 60-70 dungeon. This was in the off hours and I managed to first get a healer (as I always went for tanks and healers first). Then I had one rogue, then another, then a 3rd join us. But we just couldn't find a tank at all. Then a 4th rogue logged on and I figured... you know what? Damn it all.
I invited the 4th rogue.
So we had a group of me (enchanter), a cleric and 4 rogues. They were all super skeptical. But I had good experience with pulling mobs as my bard, and using enchanter was even easier (calm spells). Wait here I said... and ran off to pull mobs. I dragged 3 back on first pull, placed a Rune (damage absorbtion) on myself, mezzed the 2 adds and let the first one hammer on me. Since it was hitting the rune the absorbed damage counted as healing, so it kept aggro on me while the 4 rogues absolutely shredded it. Then on the 2nd, then on the 3rd. All 3 mobs down like butter under a glowing hot sword. We kept that group for hours and didn't die a single time. One of the most efficient groups I've been in. Mobs died incredibly fast and between my CC and the cleric buffering any damage on me when rune dropped we never needed a tank :)
So is the holy trinity of tank+healer+CC an absolute must? It completely depends on what spells they give us in the game and how creative (and daring) we as the players choose to be.
Ghroznak said:As an Enchanter I would have offers to join a group within minutes after logging in. With the Bard I'd get groups pretty fast as well. Then with the Ranger getting groups became a waiting game, or simply taking initative and forming one myself by inviting tank+healer first, and then DPS later. Shadowknight was about the same as the Ranger, however as the Shadow Knight I got to know quite a few healers so once I had a healer with me all we had to do would be "fill up" with DPS.
That really depends of the level range I guess. What was yours as a Shadowknight ?
Saying that because during my few P99 hours, I tend to be invited everytime I log on on my lowish (22-25) SK even when I'm not LFG or not in a group area, I guess as everyone is rolling monks to solo, tanks are quite rare.
About your non traditionnal comp, that was probably one of the many flaws EQ1 ended to have by adding new spells and more powerfull effects to some classes. Clearly fun for you, and reminds me on my monk when I tried to "tank" in Bastion of Thunder, with level cap, good gear and quite a punch of AA, and I ended beeing destroyed even as my healer was a shaman (slow + quiessence). Simply because the game was far to be balanced for everyone :P .