Corpse stuck in a level locked zone is a bogus reason not to delevel. There are dozens of ways to handel something so trivial at this stage of the game.
Easy enough for the game to just eject the corpse to the outside of the zone entrance if the player's not high enough to get it.
Zorkon said:Corpse stuck in a level locked zone is a bogus reason not to delevel. There are dozens of ways to handel something so trivial at this stage of the game.
Easy enough for the game to just eject the corpse to the outside of the zone entrance if the player's not high enough to get it.
Great. And the exact second a VR dev says that's how they're going to handle de-leveling, if they choose de-leveling as part of the death penalty, I'll be satisfied. :)
Thus far, nope.
MauvaisOeil said:I have a hard time understanding how there can be so much argue about something that insignifiant. It won't affect the game much, neither be the real weight of the death penalty. So....
The death penalty is only part of the argument. The real argument here is the direction of the game. If this is WoWified, what else becomes "easy" mode and eventually ruins the game. We argue because we all want to preserve the integrity of the game we desire. If we give into easy weak or over hard design decisions what else do we compromise on?
Kittik said:MauvaisOeil said:I have a hard time understanding how there can be so much argue about something that insignifiant. It won't affect the game much, neither be the real weight of the death penalty. So....
The death penalty is only part of the argument. The real argument here is the direction of the game. If this is WoWified, what else becomes "easy" mode and eventually ruins the game. We argue because we all want to preserve the integrity of the game we desire. If we give into easy weak or over hard design decisions what else do we compromise on?
To me it's not "easy" vs "hard", it's "boring and tedious" vs "challenging".
vjek said:Nihimon said: My suggestion is to cause the de-level to occur after some amount of xp debt is accrued.Unfortunately, this simply delays the CS burden, rather than removing it, if level gated content is going to be a thing.
The scenario is, the only reason de-leveling is considered a bad thing from a Customer Service perspective is...
I confess I hadn't even considered it from a Customer Service perspective. Your post made me realize I'm really not well-informed enough to offer useful suggestions - so thanks.
I'll just leave it at this - I hope the Death Penalty at least has xp debt, and won't complain if there's de-leveling, and ultimately trust VR to get it reasonably right.
MauvaisOeil said:I don't get the link between de-level and customer support. That's not their problem if anyone dies and loose a level, it's part of the game.
Because there is none.
Nearly 20 years ago the two mechanics of de-leveling and level locked zones were in the same game with no mechanic to resolve this issue when and IF it happened at the same time. As players, we knew and just didn't go into a level locked zone until we had enough cush to cover our butt if something bad happened. On the RARE occasion we miscalculated this then Customer Service needed called in to get your corps out of the zone.
Now nearly 20 years later people like to imply that Brad McQuade creator of that problem 20 years ago, and Chris Perkins also with 20 years experience creating and playing these games would somehow "overlook" this catch 22 problem or are simply unaware of it and it would still be there.
I think it's more likely those implying such a thing are just looking for an easy mode rush to max level and want to remove anything that will get in the way.
Iksar said:EQ: Spend 5 seconds right clicking all the items on your corpse
Pantheon: Click loot all
Does the added tedium honestly make someone fear death any more? Does it add any notable challenge or punishment? No.
It ceertainly can add to the challenge and\or punishment.
1 requires time (equiping all your items) one does not (loot all)
Time causes things to happen in game...while equiping gear you are say attacked by a roamer...you have only started equiping your stuff....now you must make decisions on can you beat the roamer without your gear? Should you run? You must also remember the decisions you are now being forced to make are because of a mistake (or moronic) action that got you killed.
In other words punishment for dying.
Now if loot all was to take a significant time that would be cool....loot all should actually show your pc equiping all his gear for flare...it would also put into perspective that equiping your stuff is not instant...it takes time to get in and out of stuff...especially armor.
Sometimes a little realism goes a long way into putting you into the game....it makes you feel like you actually are in the game.
My personal opinion is if i made a mistake or a moronic decision that got me killed...my equipment should not just appear on me...that is extremely lazy.
I guess the biggest problem we have is what is a Quality of life feature? When does quality of life just become the lazy mans tool?
Why should your gear just appear on you? What story reason allows this very magical thing to happen?
Cool progress bar with item beeing equiped one after the other. If your get attacked your weapons get equiped and everything else is stopped, as it's a common "Defense reflex" I think, to stop what you do and grab weapons first if you get attacked, instead of just lacing your shoes.
I think the progress bar idea was already mensionned a few posts ago.
MauvaisOeil said:I don't get the link between de-level and customer support. That's not their problem if anyone dies and loose a level, it's part of the game.
Absolutely true, and 100% agree, for non-level-gated content. This is the bulk of content, typically.
But the reason this mechanic (either de-leveling or level-gated content) was not used after EQ was because of the customer service burden. When someone enters a zone, dies, and can't re-enter the zone to collec their corpse that has 100 days /played worth of gear on it, they /petition. And they can't play again until this issue is resolved. So it becomes a very sore spot for customer retention, if it's not resolved immediately. Ultimately, it's a purely negative experience for the paying customer, when it's trivial to fix.
Personally, I don't see them re-creating this same problem of 20 years ago, but I am very interested in seeing the solution.
vjek said:MauvaisOeil said:I don't get the link between de-level and customer support. That's not their problem if anyone dies and loose a level, it's part of the game.
Absolutely true, and 100% agree, for non-level-gated content. This is the bulk of content, typically.
But the reason this mechanic (either de-leveling or level-gated content) was not used after EQ was because of the customer service burden. When someone enters a zone, dies, and can't re-enter the zone to collec their corpse that has 100 days /played worth of gear on it, they /petition. And they can't play again until this issue is resolved. So it becomes a very sore spot for customer retention, if it's not resolved immediately. Ultimately, it's a purely negative experience for the paying customer, when it's trivial to fix.
Personally, I don't see them re-creating this same problem of 20 years ago, but I am very interested in seeing the solution.
Why not go the way of VG?
When you died, you had two options. You could either do the naked run back to your corpse, collect your gear and gain a small percentage of your XP back, OR; you could click on the little tombstone thing and summon your corpse right to you, but not gain that percentage of XP back.
Just make it a little more punishing on the XP loss, so that the choice to just click and summon your corpse isn't always such an easy one. This would solve the problem if you delevel in a level locked zone and can't retrieve your corpse. You still suffer the penalty but CS doesn't have to get involved.
kridak said:It ceertainly can add to the challenge and\or punishment.
1 requires time (equiping all your items) one does not (loot all)
Time causes things to happen in game...while equiping gear you are say attacked by a roamer...you have only started equiping your stuff....now you must make decisions on can you beat the roamer without your gear? Should you run? You must also remember the decisions you are now being forced to make are because of a mistake (or moronic) action that got you killed.
In other words punishment for dying.
Now if loot all was to take a significant time that would be cool....loot all should actually show your pc equiping all his gear for flare...it would also put into perspective that equiping your stuff is not instant...it takes time to get in and out of stuff...especially armor.
Sometimes a little realism goes a long way into putting you into the game....it makes you feel like you actually are in the game.
My personal opinion is if i made a mistake or a moronic decision that got me killed...my equipment should not just appear on me...that is extremely lazy.
I guess the biggest problem we have is what is a Quality of life feature? When does quality of life just become the lazy mans tool?
Why should your gear just appear on you? What story reason allows this very magical thing to happen?
On the rather rare occasion you are looting your corpse and get attacked it was still better in EQ to finish looting your corpse (at least equipping your weapons and armor) before fighting or running for the zone. Looting your corpse took such a tiny amount of time you'd suffer maybe 1 or 2 extra rounds of attack from a mob before you loot it all anyway. So it leans far more toward needless tedium as the corpse run/xp loss was the actual punishment. Also I disagree with the rather common notion that death is mostly one's own fault/from personal mistakes, I'd wager for the average player at least half (likely more) of one's deaths could be attributed to the mistakes or shortcomings of others in a group. Things like dps waking the wrong adds, or adds not getting controlled at all, overpulling, unattentive tank or healer, unannounced afk in group, etc.
Like most QoL things I know it is entirely subjective but I just don't think manually looting one's own corpse and re-equipping needs to be a point in which "realism" is considered as it adds very little (if anything) to the experience of the game. Having to sit and wait to re-equip for realism or needing "loot all" to be explained by story/lore is a tad weak to me when a second after equipping all my gear I am sitting there picking up and putting on/carrying more backpacks than a pack mule.
vjek said:Nihimon said: My suggestion is to cause the de-level to occur after some amount of xp debt is accrued.Unfortunately, this simply delays the CS burden, rather than removing it, if level gated content is going to be a thing.
The scenario is, the only reason de-leveling is considered a bad thing from a Customer Service perspective is players enter an area that is level restricted, they die, then they can't get their corpse and equipment that they have spent dozens or hundreds of hours obtaining. Gear makes the character in these types of games, so it's unreasonable to expect someone to lose everything valuable about their character due to something that is not their fault. (such as a power failure or storm causing an untimely death).
There is no doubt that players need to bear the consequences for their actions, but forcing them to bear serious negative/punitive consequences for something beyond their control is just asking to lose a customer.
So, de-leveling of any kind faces the same CS challenge, with level gated content. Of course, a simple solution is: don't have level gated content. And then you can de-level someone instantly without any problem whatsoever, because they can always go and get their corpse.
Another choice is to never de-level them, and have level-gated content, but have XP debt. Seems fine to me, and seems to be the way the VR devs are leaning, but I'm sure opinions will vary.
Joppa mentioned that he wasn't opposed to de-leveling so I am really hoping that it can be fit into the plan. I think the vast majority of people would agree that debt is perfectly fine during the leveling phase, but when you are no longer able to level, debt becomes trivial. From a risk vs reward perspective, that really jacks up the game. EQ2 and Vanguard both used debt at max level and I can confidently say that it simply doesn't work as a deterrent. Loss aversion is a powerful thing in an MMO and in order for players to respect their environment at max level, de-leveling should be on the table. De-leveling is a simple option and one that has been proven to work in other oldschool, hardcore MMO's like EQ and FFXI. If you don't want to de-level, you simply grind out a buffer. If your deaths start piling up then your buffer will dwindle down.
I think there are a lot of very subtle psychological effects that people are unaware of.
People claim that looting your corpse is tedious and you should "blink" and have all your gear back and equipped and in it's proper place.
No.....no you shouldn't and here's why:
A significant part of the game is the items you acquire. Everything you do to pursue an item (hunting grouping questing raiding) is a powerful event in your immersion to the game.
When all those items are stripped from you, there is a nakedness that happens as all that accomplishment is taken away.
Then you have to get it back and each and every single item should be handed back to you, one-at-a-time so you can "rebuild" your position in the world.
If you just pop everything back.......they become trivial and the importance of each item is completely evaporated. You are no longer defined by the accomplishments represented by these things.
They are just "stuff"
@fazool I really like your reasoning. I like my items to be important to me.
If a Loot All option is to be in the game, having a timer that can be interrupted, as mentioned in this thread, seems ok to me. The auto looting should prioritize weapons and armor first and bags last. Having the auto looting do it randomly I don't like.
Tralyan said:Why not go the way of VG?
When you died, you had two options. You could either do the naked run back to your corpse, collect your gear and gain a small percentage of your XP back, OR; you could click on the little tombstone thing and summon your corpse right to you, but not gain that percentage of XP back.
Just make it a little more punishing on the XP loss, so that the choice to just click and summon your corpse isn't always such an easy one. This would solve the problem if you delevel in a level locked zone and can't retrieve your corpse. You still suffer the penalty but CS doesn't have to get involved.
Sorte said:@fazool I really like your reasoning. I like my items to be important to me.
If a Loot All option is to be in the game, having a timer that can be interrupted, as mentioned in this thread, seems ok to me. The auto looting should prioritize weapons and armor first and bags last. Having the auto looting do it randomly I don't like.Tralyan said:Why not go the way of VG?
When you died, you had two options. You could either do the naked run back to your corpse, collect your gear and gain a small percentage of your XP back, OR; you could click on the little tombstone thing and summon your corpse right to you, but not gain that percentage of XP back.
Just make it a little more punishing on the XP loss, so that the choice to just click and summon your corpse isn't always such an easy one. This would solve the problem if you delevel in a level locked zone and can't retrieve your corpse. You still suffer the penalty but CS doesn't have to get involved.
This would end all corps runs for me. Why would I ever run back for my corps naked, when I can summon my corps and be armed, buffed and ready by the time I return to the dungoen. What ever exp. I lose this way will soon be gained back. :)
-sorte.
Very true, and I've been thinking of this. But perhaps it can be revised in such a way that the penalty of "instant summoning" is such that it would only ever be used in the most direst of circumstances? Perhaps you lose MORE experience by clicking the summon stone? Maybe you're cursed with a "rez sickness" of sorts that severely cripples you for long enough as to make the need for the summoning stone one of necessity rather than convenience?
When you go into a level locked zone that you're just barely high enough for, without the foresight to give yourself an XP cushion, that should come with penalties - and yet, we want to avoid wasting CS time just because someone wasn't prepared. Creating a very-worst-case-scenario summoning tool with punishment so egregious that it would be insane to make use of it for a run of the mill death is one way to avoid wasting CS time while sticking with the harsh penalties *most* of us want.
Though I concede that in order to make sure it's not used for every death, the punishments would have to be really, really, reeeeeeeeeeeally bad - and that comes with its own set of challenges.
I can remember in the early days of my playing eq I fell asleep for a couple of minutes and I must have kept running and died in a very unfriendly place, my friend paid a high level necromancer to summon my corpse. I was so thankful he gave us the money back. Perhaps some class will have that ability again.
Tralyan said:When you go into a level locked zone that you're just barely high enough for, without the foresight to give yourself an XP cushion, that should come with penalties - and yet, we want to avoid wasting CS time just because someone wasn't prepared. Creating a very-worst-case-scenario summoning tool with punishment so egregious that it would be insane to make use of it for a run of the mill death is one way to avoid wasting CS time while sticking with the harsh penalties *most* of us want.
Though I concede that in order to make sure it's not used for every death, the punishments would have to be really, really, reeeeeeeeeeeally bad - and that comes with its own set of challenges.
The simple answer to that one is once a character hits a zone level requirement they get flagged for permanent access regardless of current level.
As for losing levels or debt etc... I don't think any of it really makes death something to be feared at max level unless resurrect sucks more than any other game. In EQ dying at level 50/60 was no big deal since you'd generally have no problem finding a rez for 98% xp return. Even if rez only returned 50% of the exp that would still end up being around 20/21 deaths before any de-leveling or debt.
Iksar said:Tralyan said:When you go into a level locked zone that you're just barely high enough for, without the foresight to give yourself an XP cushion, that should come with penalties - and yet, we want to avoid wasting CS time just because someone wasn't prepared. Creating a very-worst-case-scenario summoning tool with punishment so egregious that it would be insane to make use of it for a run of the mill death is one way to avoid wasting CS time while sticking with the harsh penalties *most* of us want.
Though I concede that in order to make sure it's not used for every death, the punishments would have to be really, really, reeeeeeeeeeeally bad - and that comes with its own set of challenges.
The simple answer to that one is once a character hits a zone level requirement they get flagged for permanent access regardless of current level.
As for losing levels or debt etc... I don't think any of it really makes death something to be feared at max level unless resurrect sucks more than any other game. In EQ dying at level 50/60 was no big deal since you'd generally have no problem finding a rez for 98% xp return. Even if rez only returned 50% of the exp that would still end up being around 20/21 deaths before any de-leveling or debt.
That's a good point.
On that topic, I ran into a fella on P99 that told me he will regularly level to 57, and then de-level down to 42 so that he can still group with his brother. In cases like this, would you think it "fair" or feasible for someone who de-levels to such an extent to still have access to those places they unlocked previously?