Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Bazgrim's 19-APR-18 Stream Recap

    • 4320 posts
    April 20, 2018 8:00 AM PDT

    On Thursday, Visionary Realms continued to branch out and show Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen to a different Twitch community. This time, the streamer was Lassiz. The group was level 20 and was composed as follows:

    Ben "Machail" Dean (Director of Communications) - Dwarf Warrior
    Brad "Aradune" McQuaid (Chief Creative Officer) - Human Warrior
    Chris "Joppa" Perkins (Creative Director/Lead Game Designer) - Human Cleric
    Kim "Zoeii" Morrison (Lead Tester) - Elf Enchanter
    David "Roenick" Schlow (Producer of Promotional Content) - Human Wizard
    Lassiz - Gnome Rogue

    The stream was about an hour long and focused on showing off the new zone Black Rose Keep, much like how those at PAX East 2018 recently saw it. As always, keep in mind the game is still in Pre-Alpha, so most things should still be considered subject to change, but of course it's still very good to see what the current state of the game is. Rather than a Q&A style stream, the team focused primarily on exploring the new zone while strategizing and simply having fun, just like a player would on a typical day in Terminus. However, there were still a few new noteworthy things that were mentioned:

    - Black Rose Keep has a level range of 8 - 35.

    - You can prevent abilities from being accidentally removed from your hotbar by clicking the lock icon to the right of the hotbar.

    - The plan is for the S key to backpedal by default instead of turning your character around to face the camera.

    - Typing "%t" will put the name of your current target in your chatbar.

    - The plan is for auto attack to toggle automatically when you use a damaging offensive ability.

    - The accuracy of the compass on your UI will be at least partially dependent on the level of a skill.

    - Most abilities trigger a 1 second global cooldown.

    - If you lose enough XP upon death that would delevel you, you will instead accumulate an XP debt.

    - You will eventually be able to open chests and other objects you see in the environment.

    But of course that is only a summary of the highlights and words alone cannot do it justice. So if you haven't already, I definitely suggest you check out Black Rose Keep for yourself. For more information on individual topics, click on the links below:

    Introductions

    Nighttime Visuals

    Review of Rogue Abilities

    Welcome to Black Rose Keep

    Classic Combat Style

    Open World Dynamics

    Positional Ability Requirements

    Pre-Alpha Pledges

    Miniboss Fight (Fion Iridia)

    Group Size

    In-game Maps

    Mob Tagging

    The Courtyard

    Casting While Moving

    Miniboss Fight (Black Wolf Dyl)

    Post-Stream Review

    Alternatively, the whole stream is available on YouTube here: https://youtu.be/o3Holmesv34

    If you're new to Pantheon and want to learn more, I suggest you read the FAQ to get up to speed about what the game is and why it's different. If you liked what you saw in the stream and haven't pledged already, you can do so here: http://www.pantheonmmo.com/join/

    Overall, the amount of progress that has been made on the game continues to be very impressive. I hope you enjoyed the stream as much as I did and found this recap helpful. As always, thanks for reading!

    Baz


    This post was edited by Bazgrim at April 20, 2018 8:48 AM PDT
    • 394 posts
    April 20, 2018 8:57 AM PDT

    Thanks for the recap Baz :)

     

    Also of note, each streamer has called Joppa something different.

    Cohh Carnage: Jaw-Pa (I didn't actually go back to check that he pronounced it correctly, so maybe I'm wrong)

    Jim Lee: Joo-Pa (Definitely noticed and by Joppa who had some fun with it)

    Lassiz: Joe-Pa (In the stream recap)

    How many name variants is this guy gonna get?

    • 745 posts
    April 20, 2018 9:40 AM PDT

    \m/ thanks Baz, I appreciate your efforts <3

    I think I'll rewatch the stream this evening with a nice microbrew.  Even for a short stream, there was a ton to see and digest - it was so amazing seeing new content.  And wow, Black Rose Keep was so cool!  I loved the feel of the place from what we saw.

    • 2462 posts
    April 20, 2018 11:16 AM PDT

    Bazgrim said:

    - The plan is for auto attack to toggle automatically when you use a damaging offensive ability.

    Rather curious about this one. Will this be something players can lock so it doesn't happen? It seems like this would be in conflict with the advice from the previous stream in Halnir where they recommended not auto-attacking damage shield mobs and only using big abilities or perhaps a 2h weapon. Would be kind of terrible to try and use just big hit abilities only to instantly go into auto attack and throw out a handful of attacks, shredding yourself in the process.

    • 1625 posts
    April 20, 2018 12:30 PM PDT

    Thanks for the recap Baz, as usual !

    Weren't there info on ingame maps if they "should be" ?

    • 820 posts
    April 20, 2018 12:51 PM PDT

    Iksar said:

    Bazgrim said:

    - The plan is for auto attack to toggle automatically when you use a damaging offensive ability.

    Rather curious about this one. Will this be something players can lock so it doesn't happen? It seems like this would be in conflict with the advice from the previous stream in Halnir where they recommended not auto-attacking damage shield mobs and only using big abilities or perhaps a 2h weapon. Would be kind of terrible to try and use just big hit abilities only to instantly go into auto attack and throw out a handful of attacks, shredding yourself in the process.

    I was thinking the same thing. 

    EQ2 (and probably others, I dunno) did the same thing, and I recall it being pretty handy, and certainly not problematic. But in classic EQ, I definitely wouldn't have wanted to see that. I enjoyed having more control over my characters actions, even if it's something as silly as choosing to autoattack versus it being automatic after using a melee skill. 

    This is one of those things that rubs me the wrong way, but I can't really pinpoint why...

    • 394 posts
    April 20, 2018 1:10 PM PDT

    I would love for the autoattack button to have three modes.

    1: On (red border around icon)
    2: Off (regular icon)
    3: Automatic (white circling border pattern)

    If you hit your autoattack hotkey in combat, then it cycles between being on and off. If you select it out of combat, then it goes between being automatic and off. In 90% of cases you would just leave your character in automatic mode. In the 10% of cases that required manual control of autoattack, then it would bump you into manual control for the rest of the fight so that you wouldn't have to keep wrestling with it, then put it back into automatic after the fight if you wish to.

    Other systems of handling it would work fine also, just as long as you can easily use abilities without triggering autoattack.


    This post was edited by Ainadak at April 20, 2018 1:11 PM PDT
    • 477 posts
    April 20, 2018 1:16 PM PDT

    Ainadak said:

    I would love for the autoattack button to have three modes.

    1: On (red border around icon)
    2: Off (regular icon)
    3: Automatic (white circling border pattern)

    If you hit your autoattack hotkey in combat, then it cycles between being on and off. If you select it out of combat, then it goes between being automatic and off. In 90% of cases you would just leave your character in automatic mode. In the 10% of cases that required manual control of autoattack, then it would bump you into manual control for the rest of the fight so that you wouldn't have to keep wrestling with it, then put it back into automatic after the fight if you wish to.

    Other systems of handling it would work fine also, just as long as you can easily use abilities without triggering autoattack.

    Perfection, can we please get this in it would solve the problem mention above, when you need to stop auto-attack for some reason and just use abilities.

    • 3199 posts
    April 20, 2018 2:01 PM PDT

    As mentioned during the "mob tagging" portion, an open world game poses certain challenges.  The important distinction for me is that there are several oldschool MMO's that used FTE to solve some of those challenges, particularly FFXI and Vanguard.  I think the concern is less about instancing vs open world and more about preserving encounter challenge (prevent zerging and balancing the risk vs reward of encounters by saying that Mob X is designed to be killed by a single group or raid) and limiting the potential for KS'ing with every worthwhile encounter.  Seeing that Vanguard used FTE, I'm really curious on why VR is straying away from that model.  I have spoken with plenty of people who played Vanguard for a long time and the vast majority of them were really happy with how mob tagging was handled in that game.  So just from a design standpoint, I would love to hear why FTE was used in Vanguard, but now we're circling back to MDD which is what was used in EQ.  What caused this shift, specifically?  Here are my thoughts on FTE vs MDD (Most Damage Done):

     

    First To Engage (FTE) Mechanic

    Pros:

    • Can be leveraged to create a clearly defined "claim" mechanism that allows players to compete with minimal drama.
    • Removes a large degree of potential petitions that require interpretative intervention.
    • Creates an environment where all capable teams are encouraged to show up and compete for contested content.
    • Allows the development team more control as it pertains to creating truly challenging content.
    • Preserves the integrity and challenge of encounter design by preventing zerg-like behavior.
    • Allows players to focus their efforts on tackling challenging content rather than out-performing other players.
    • Allows more group/raid compositions to be viable by alleviating the inflated value of specific classes that are ideal in a DPS Racing environment.
    • Allows players to utilize a larger portion of their kit by removing the "DPS Trumps All" mentality.  #HotbarRealEstate
    • Alleviates the insurmountable power gap that is often associated with the DPS Racing formula.
    • Helps guilds retain their top players by ensuring that their efforts remain relevant.  #CommunityMatters
    • Creates an additional incentive to prioritize the disallowance of automated scripting software.
    • Completely eliminates kill-stealing across every tier of content.  (Not the same thing as leap-frogging.)
    • High likelihood of having an impact on overall retention and profitability.  #OpinionsMightMatter

    Cons:

    • Requires additional programming, funding, and design considerations.  #ThreeBulletsInOne
    • Can be difficult to implement down the road if above considerations are not factored into the early stages of development.
    • Viewed negatively by players who desire a pseudo-PVP element to be integrated into PVE.
    • Removes an element of player interaction depending on method of implementation and other design considerations.
    • May encourage training due to the nullification of kill-stealing.

     

    Additional Considerations:

    • EQ2/FFXI/Vanguard all used FTE to great effect and were renowned for having challenging content.  Beating that content felt extremely validating because it proved that your group/raid was capable of conquering content as it was designed and without outside interference/assistance, which is paramount in a true risk vs reward environment.

     

    • If damage dealt is the only qualifier of mob "ownership" (like EQ), then "kill stealing" is an invalid term, because it inherently implies an alternative means of determining mob ownership, which invalidates damage dealt as a metric.  Holding both positions at once is cognitive dissonance.

     

    • Many players want a fair chance to experience content without being trampled over by others.  A tagging system is fair and does not promote the rich get richer mentality that is painstakingly attached to the DPS Racing model.  In order for this to work, the game needs to be truly challenging which leads to the next bullet.

     

    • The FTE mechanism shouldn't be viewed as a tool that allows people to "first hit something" for "easy credit."  Encounters should be really challenging, and the preparation phase should be vital to your success (which is something that has been emphasized a great deal for Pantheon).  If we get to the point where players are more worried about securing the pull than they are with how they're going to deal with the challenging boss they just pulled, the game isn't hard enough.  Your #1 focus should ALWAYS be based around a clean pull to prevent a mob from promptly destroying your group/raid.  Winning the pull is a secondary consideration that should punish you if you're greedy & pull something while being under prepared.

     

    • DPS Racing reinforces the "it's about the destination rather than the journey" mindset.  Players will be driven to grind to maximum level, with no sleep, and kill everything possible until they beat the game.  You can spend a solid 2-3 weeks focused 100% on getting to end-game and killing every boss while there is no real competition from players who would otherwise take longer to get to that tier of content.  Been there, done that, and to be quite honest, I'm tired of playing the villain.  Once you establish a lead in this race, you can basically coast your way to the finish line (any future contested content) as long as players continue to show up and leverage the power gap that can be achieved by rushing to max level.

     

    • In order to prevent true long-term competition, ultra-hardcore players are encouraged to play in such a way that revolves around the above bullet.  The common policy is to rotate sleeping shifts (4-6 hours) between multiple players.  While one person sleeps, the other person boxes their character (albeit at limited efficiency.)  When that player wakes up, they rotate duties with the other person who was boxing their character.  It allows players to stay logged in, grinding, 24/7.  There is a reason why people are willing to go through these extremes.  It gives such a massive advantage toward the DPS racing model that it becomes nearly impossible for any other guild to compete with them.  (Note that some guilds will do this regardless of what mechanic is adopted in order to secure WW position for various raid kills.  There is no issue with that.  There are major issues, however, with creating a system that rewards this behavior with an ever growing chain reaction of power spikes to those who get there first.  It's a simple formula that can be leveraged to unthinkable benefit, and has been for nearly 20 years.)

     

    • If you want to give people a reason to show up because they at least have a chance to down a distinguished boss, first-tag is the way to go.  I have watched second or third tier guilds beat contested content due to the first-tag system and it's a truly awesome thing.  It made competition feel alive because everybody had a real chance to win.  A lot of people have voiced their concerns on how DPS Racing ultimately feels like "PVP" on a "PVE" server.  Should players be more concerned about the epic dragon they are fighting, or the power of that other raid of "heroes" beside them?  Should the underdogs have a chance or not?  If they do, guilds have a much better chance of retaining their top talent rather than see them being assimilated by the DPS-Racing juggernauts that monopolize the entire competitive landscape of a given server.

     

    • Systems are intrinsically tied to community politics. Without systems, the game wouldn't exist in the first place. Community comes after systems, because the entire fabric of how the community can interact and behave is contingent on how the game itself is configured.  It is of the upmost importance, in my opinion, that the game is not designed in such a way that encourages degenerate behavior.  If the game allows a single player to kite a named boss around for extended periods of time, the game isn't hard enough.  There are plenty of ways to prevent this type of "cheese play" from working, especially with bosses.

     

     

    Finally, I would also like to cite several tenets that reinforce the logic behind an FTE system (IMO):

    • A commitment to a style of play that focuses on immersive combat, and engaging group mechanics.
    • An understanding that a truly challenging game is truly rewarding.
    • An expectation that with greater risk will come greater reward.
    • A sincere commitment to creating a world where a focus on cooperative play will attract those seeking a challenge.
    • A belief that the greatest sense of accomplishment comes when it is shared - and earned.

     

    As a sidenote, I also want to mention that EQOA, which is tied for my favorite MMO of all time (alongside FFXI) did use the MDD model.  This is important because my two favorite games both used different models for kill credit, and were both open-world games.  So at the end of the day, I am not writing MDD off.  But one memory I have with EQOA is that my guild always got kill credit on contested encounters whereas with FFXI competition felt more legitimate.  Any time multiple guilds were DPS Racing against a raid boss in EQOA, it was almost inevitable that the mob would die because the encounters simply weren't designed to be killed by an unknown amount of people.  As a hardcore raider, I think MDD will create a more favorable competitive landscape for my playstyle.  I never saw an underdog story with MDD.  You either rolled with the best guild or you lost every race ... and that is the crux of the issue.

    If we're going MDD ... so be it!  But that model basically encourages competition ... kill credit is defined as "most damage done" not "who got there first."  I think it's important to accept that, and own it.  If there are going to be rules in place to prevent kill-stealing, that is also something that needs to be clearly defined.  If it's open to interpretation, it will create an enormous burden for the CS team.  Looking at Gnasshura in Halnir Cave ... there is a door locking mechanic.  What is the purpose of that?  To prevent competition, or overwhelming the mob (aka balancing risk vs reward of an encounter that is designed for a single group)?  Will multiple groups be able to enter that room or will the room have a cap on how many players can be inside at any given point in time?  Is there a solid commitment from VR to leverage ghosting in Pantheon, as was the case in Vanguard?  I have seen it referenced quite a bit as a potential solution to some of the challenges of "too much competition" but Vanguard used FTE rather than MDD.  If ghosting is going to be used, how will the system be evolved to accommodate for an MDD model that poses new variables that didn't need to be considered in Vanguard?

    I have also seen encounter scaling referenced as a potential solution.  I would love to hear more information about that feature, if it's a part of the plan, and how it would be implemented.  Would it be possible for guilds to intentionally overwhelm an NPC with the hope of wiping another raid by triggering adds?  What about forcing a mob to flee while another guild is already fighting it?  The biggest question of all is this ... what is the goal when it comes to player vs player vs environment competition?  Will it be constant?  Are there rules, or exceptions to the rules?


    This post was edited by oneADseven at April 20, 2018 2:32 PM PDT
    • 256 posts
    April 20, 2018 2:54 PM PDT

    oneADseven said:

    As mentioned during the "mob tagging" portion, an open world game poses certain challenges.  The important distinction for me is that there are several oldschool MMO's that used FTE to solve some of those challenges, particularly FFXI and Vanguard.  I think the concern is less about instancing vs open world and more about preserving encounter challenge (prevent zerging and balancing the risk vs reward of encounters by saying that Mob X is designed to be killed by a single group or raid) and limiting the potential for KS'ing with every worthwhile encounter.  Seeing that Vanguard used FTE, I'm really curious on why VR is straying away from that model.  I have spoken with plenty of people who played Vanguard for a long time and the vast majority of them were really happy with how mob tagging was handled in that game.  So just from a design standpoint, I would love to hear why FTE was used in Vanguard, but now we're circling back to MDD which is what was used in EQ.  What caused this shift, specifically?  Here are my thoughts on FTE vs MDD (Most Damage Done):

     

    First To Engage (FTE) Mechanic

    Pros:

    • Can be leveraged to create a clearly defined "claim" mechanism that allows players to compete with minimal drama.
    • Removes a large degree of potential petitions that require interpretative intervention.
    • Creates an environment where all capable teams are encouraged to show up and compete for contested content.
    • Allows the development team more control as it pertains to creating truly challenging content.
    • Preserves the integrity and challenge of encounter design by preventing zerg-like behavior.
    • Allows players to focus their efforts on tackling challenging content rather than out-performing other players.
    • Allows more group/raid compositions to be viable by alleviating the inflated value of specific classes that are ideal in a DPS Racing environment.
    • Allows players to utilize a larger portion of their kit by removing the "DPS Trumps All" mentality.  #HotbarRealEstate
    • Alleviates the insurmountable power gap that is often associated with the DPS Racing formula.
    • Helps guilds retain their top players by ensuring that their efforts remain relevant.  #CommunityMatters
    • Creates an additional incentive to prioritize the disallowance of automated scripting software.
    • Completely eliminates kill-stealing across every tier of content.  (Not the same thing as leap-frogging.)
    • High likelihood of having an impact on overall retention and profitability.  #OpinionsMightMatter

    Cons:

    • Requires additional programming, funding, and design considerations.  #ThreeBulletsInOne
    • Can be difficult to implement down the road if above considerations are not factored into the early stages of development.
    • Viewed negatively by players who desire a pseudo-PVP element to be integrated into PVE.
    • Removes an element of player interaction depending on method of implementation and other design considerations.
    • May encourage training due to the nullification of kill-stealing.

     

    Additional Considerations:

    • EQ2/FFXI/Vanguard all used FTE to great effect and were renowned for having challenging content.  Beating that content felt extremely validating because it proved that your group/raid was capable of conquering content as it was designed and without outside interference/assistance, which is paramount in a true risk vs reward environment.

     

    • If damage dealt is the only qualifier of mob "ownership" (like EQ), then "kill stealing" is an invalid term, because it inherently implies an alternative means of determining mob ownership, which invalidates damage dealt as a metric.  Holding both positions at once is cognitive dissonance.

     

    • Many players want a fair chance to experience content without being trampled over by others.  A tagging system is fair and does not promote the rich get richer mentality that is painstakingly attached to the DPS Racing model.  In order for this to work, the game needs to be truly challenging which leads to the next bullet.

     

    • The FTE mechanism shouldn't be viewed as a tool that allows people to "first hit something" for "easy credit."  Encounters should be really challenging, and the preparation phase should be vital to your success (which is something that has been emphasized a great deal for Pantheon).  If we get to the point where players are more worried about securing the pull than they are with how they're going to deal with the challenging boss they just pulled, the game isn't hard enough.  Your #1 focus should ALWAYS be based around a clean pull to prevent a mob from promptly destroying your group/raid.  Winning the pull is a secondary consideration that should punish you if you're greedy & pull something while being under prepared.

     

    • DPS Racing reinforces the "it's about the destination rather than the journey" mindset.  Players will be driven to grind to maximum level, with no sleep, and kill everything possible until they beat the game.  You can spend a solid 2-3 weeks focused 100% on getting to end-game and killing every boss while there is no real competition from players who would otherwise take longer to get to that tier of content.  Been there, done that, and to be quite honest, I'm tired of playing the villain.  Once you establish a lead in this race, you can basically coast your way to the finish line (any future contested content) as long as players continue to show up and leverage the power gap that can be achieved by rushing to max level.

     

    • In order to prevent true long-term competition, ultra-hardcore players are encouraged to play in such a way that revolves around the above bullet.  The common policy is to rotate sleeping shifts (4-6 hours) between multiple players.  While one person sleeps, the other person boxes their character (albeit at limited efficiency.)  When that player wakes up, they rotate duties with the other person who was boxing their character.  It allows players to stay logged in, grinding, 24/7.  There is a reason why people are willing to go through these extremes.  It gives such a massive advantage toward the DPS racing model that it becomes nearly impossible for any other guild to compete with them.  (Note that some guilds will do this regardless of what mechanic is adopted in order to secure WW position for various raid kills.  There is no issue with that.  There are major issues, however, with creating a system that rewards this behavior with an ever growing chain reaction of power spikes to those who get there first.  It's a simple formula that can be leveraged to unthinkable benefit, and has been for nearly 20 years.)

     

    • If you want to give people a reason to show up because they at least have a chance to down a distinguished boss, first-tag is the way to go.  I have watched second or third tier guilds beat contested content due to the first-tag system and it's a truly awesome thing.  It made competition feel alive because everybody had a real chance to win.  A lot of people have voiced their concerns on how DPS Racing ultimately feels like "PVP" on a "PVE" server.  Should players be more concerned about the epic dragon they are fighting, or the power of that other raid of "heroes" beside them?  Should the underdogs have a chance or not?  If they do, guilds have a much better chance of retaining their top talent rather than see them being assimilated by the DPS-Racing juggernauts that monopolize the entire competitive landscape of a given server.

     

    • Systems are intrinsically tied to community politics. Without systems, the game wouldn't exist in the first place. Community comes after systems, because the entire fabric of how the community can interact and behave is contingent on how the game itself is configured.  It is of the upmost importance, in my opinion, that the game is not designed in such a way that encourages degenerate behavior.  If the game allows a single player to kite a named boss around for extended periods of time, the game isn't hard enough.  There are plenty of ways to prevent this type of "cheese play" from working, especially with bosses.

     

     

    Finally, I would also like to cite several tenets that reinforce the logic behind an FTE system (IMO):

    • A commitment to a style of play that focuses on immersive combat, and engaging group mechanics.
    • An understanding that a truly challenging game is truly rewarding.
    • An expectation that with greater risk will come greater reward.
    • A sincere commitment to creating a world where a focus on cooperative play will attract those seeking a challenge.
    • A belief that the greatest sense of accomplishment comes when it is shared - and earned.

     

    As a sidenote, I also want to mention that EQOA, which is tied for my favorite MMO of all time (alongside FFXI) did use the MDD model.  This is important because my two favorite games both used different models for kill credit, and were both open-world games.  So at the end of the day, I am not writing MDD off.  But one memory I have with EQOA is that my guild always got kill credit on contested encounters whereas with FFXI competition felt more legitimate.  Any time multiple guilds were DPS Racing against a raid boss in EQOA, it was almost inevitable that the mob would die because the encounters simply weren't designed to be killed by an unknown amount of people.  As a hardcore raider, I think MDD will create a more favorable competitive landscape for my playstyle.  I never saw an underdog story with MDD.  You either rolled with the best guild or you lost every race ... and that is the crux of the issue.

    If we're going MDD ... so be it!  But that model basically encourages competition ... kill credit is defined as "most damage done" not "who got there first."  I think it's important to accept that, and own it.  If there are going to be rules in place to prevent kill-stealing, that is also something that needs to be clearly defined.  If it's open to interpretation, it will create an enormous burden for the CS team.  Looking at Gnasshura in Halnir Cave ... there is a door locking mechanic.  What is the purpose of that?  To prevent competition, or overwhelming the mob (aka balancing risk vs reward of an encounter that is designed for a single group)?  Will multiple groups be able to enter that room or will the room have a cap on how many players can be inside at any given point in time?  Is there a solid commitment from VR to leverage ghosting in Pantheon, as was the case in Vanguard?  I have seen it referenced quite a bit as a potential solution to some of the challenges of "too much competition" but Vanguard used FTE rather than MDD.  If ghosting is going to be used, how will the system be evolved to accommodate for an MDD model that poses new variables that didn't need to be considered in Vanguard?

    I have also seen encounter scaling referenced as a potential solution.  I would love to hear more information about that feature, if it's a part of the plan, and how it would be implemented.  Would it be possible for guilds to intentionally overwhelm an NPC with the hope of wiping another raid by triggering adds?  What about forcing a mob to flee while another guild is already fighting it?  The biggest question of all is this ... what is the goal when it comes to player vs player vs environment competition?  Will it be constant?  Are there rules, or exceptions to the rules?

     

    Please give it a rest mate! Trust in VR and let them make "Their" game.

    • 820 posts
    April 20, 2018 3:21 PM PDT

    Pyde said:

    oneADseven said:

    As mentioned during the "mob tagging" portion, an open world game poses certain challenges.  The important distinction for me is that there are several oldschool MMO's that used FTE to solve some of those challenges, particularly FFXI and Vanguard.  I think the concern is less about instancing vs open world and more about preserving encounter challenge (prevent zerging and balancing the risk vs reward of encounters by saying that Mob X is designed to be killed by a single group or raid) and limiting the potential for KS'ing with every worthwhile encounter.  Seeing that Vanguard used FTE, I'm really curious on why VR is straying away from that model.  I have spoken with plenty of people who played Vanguard for a long time and the vast majority of them were really happy with how mob tagging was handled in that game.  So just from a design standpoint, I would love to hear why FTE was used in Vanguard, but now we're circling back to MDD which is what was used in EQ.  What caused this shift, specifically?  Here are my thoughts on FTE vs MDD (Most Damage Done):

     

    First To Engage (FTE) Mechanic

    Pros:

    • Can be leveraged to create a clearly defined "claim" mechanism that allows players to compete with minimal drama.
    • Removes a large degree of potential petitions that require interpretative intervention.
    • Creates an environment where all capable teams are encouraged to show up and compete for contested content.
    • Allows the development team more control as it pertains to creating truly challenging content.
    • Preserves the integrity and challenge of encounter design by preventing zerg-like behavior.
    • Allows players to focus their efforts on tackling challenging content rather than out-performing other players.
    • Allows more group/raid compositions to be viable by alleviating the inflated value of specific classes that are ideal in a DPS Racing environment.
    • Allows players to utilize a larger portion of their kit by removing the "DPS Trumps All" mentality.  #HotbarRealEstate
    • Alleviates the insurmountable power gap that is often associated with the DPS Racing formula.
    • Helps guilds retain their top players by ensuring that their efforts remain relevant.  #CommunityMatters
    • Creates an additional incentive to prioritize the disallowance of automated scripting software.
    • Completely eliminates kill-stealing across every tier of content.  (Not the same thing as leap-frogging.)
    • High likelihood of having an impact on overall retention and profitability.  #OpinionsMightMatter

    Cons:

    • Requires additional programming, funding, and design considerations.  #ThreeBulletsInOne
    • Can be difficult to implement down the road if above considerations are not factored into the early stages of development.
    • Viewed negatively by players who desire a pseudo-PVP element to be integrated into PVE.
    • Removes an element of player interaction depending on method of implementation and other design considerations.
    • May encourage training due to the nullification of kill-stealing.

     

    Additional Considerations:

    • EQ2/FFXI/Vanguard all used FTE to great effect and were renowned for having challenging content.  Beating that content felt extremely validating because it proved that your group/raid was capable of conquering content as it was designed and without outside interference/assistance, which is paramount in a true risk vs reward environment.

     

    • If damage dealt is the only qualifier of mob "ownership" (like EQ), then "kill stealing" is an invalid term, because it inherently implies an alternative means of determining mob ownership, which invalidates damage dealt as a metric.  Holding both positions at once is cognitive dissonance.

     

    • Many players want a fair chance to experience content without being trampled over by others.  A tagging system is fair and does not promote the rich get richer mentality that is painstakingly attached to the DPS Racing model.  In order for this to work, the game needs to be truly challenging which leads to the next bullet.

     

    • The FTE mechanism shouldn't be viewed as a tool that allows people to "first hit something" for "easy credit."  Encounters should be really challenging, and the preparation phase should be vital to your success (which is something that has been emphasized a great deal for Pantheon).  If we get to the point where players are more worried about securing the pull than they are with how they're going to deal with the challenging boss they just pulled, the game isn't hard enough.  Your #1 focus should ALWAYS be based around a clean pull to prevent a mob from promptly destroying your group/raid.  Winning the pull is a secondary consideration that should punish you if you're greedy & pull something while being under prepared.

     

    • DPS Racing reinforces the "it's about the destination rather than the journey" mindset.  Players will be driven to grind to maximum level, with no sleep, and kill everything possible until they beat the game.  You can spend a solid 2-3 weeks focused 100% on getting to end-game and killing every boss while there is no real competition from players who would otherwise take longer to get to that tier of content.  Been there, done that, and to be quite honest, I'm tired of playing the villain.  Once you establish a lead in this race, you can basically coast your way to the finish line (any future contested content) as long as players continue to show up and leverage the power gap that can be achieved by rushing to max level.

     

    • In order to prevent true long-term competition, ultra-hardcore players are encouraged to play in such a way that revolves around the above bullet.  The common policy is to rotate sleeping shifts (4-6 hours) between multiple players.  While one person sleeps, the other person boxes their character (albeit at limited efficiency.)  When that player wakes up, they rotate duties with the other person who was boxing their character.  It allows players to stay logged in, grinding, 24/7.  There is a reason why people are willing to go through these extremes.  It gives such a massive advantage toward the DPS racing model that it becomes nearly impossible for any other guild to compete with them.  (Note that some guilds will do this regardless of what mechanic is adopted in order to secure WW position for various raid kills.  There is no issue with that.  There are major issues, however, with creating a system that rewards this behavior with an ever growing chain reaction of power spikes to those who get there first.  It's a simple formula that can be leveraged to unthinkable benefit, and has been for nearly 20 years.)

     

    • If you want to give people a reason to show up because they at least have a chance to down a distinguished boss, first-tag is the way to go.  I have watched second or third tier guilds beat contested content due to the first-tag system and it's a truly awesome thing.  It made competition feel alive because everybody had a real chance to win.  A lot of people have voiced their concerns on how DPS Racing ultimately feels like "PVP" on a "PVE" server.  Should players be more concerned about the epic dragon they are fighting, or the power of that other raid of "heroes" beside them?  Should the underdogs have a chance or not?  If they do, guilds have a much better chance of retaining their top talent rather than see them being assimilated by the DPS-Racing juggernauts that monopolize the entire competitive landscape of a given server.

     

    • Systems are intrinsically tied to community politics. Without systems, the game wouldn't exist in the first place. Community comes after systems, because the entire fabric of how the community can interact and behave is contingent on how the game itself is configured.  It is of the upmost importance, in my opinion, that the game is not designed in such a way that encourages degenerate behavior.  If the game allows a single player to kite a named boss around for extended periods of time, the game isn't hard enough.  There are plenty of ways to prevent this type of "cheese play" from working, especially with bosses.

     

     

    Finally, I would also like to cite several tenets that reinforce the logic behind an FTE system (IMO):

    • A commitment to a style of play that focuses on immersive combat, and engaging group mechanics.
    • An understanding that a truly challenging game is truly rewarding.
    • An expectation that with greater risk will come greater reward.
    • A sincere commitment to creating a world where a focus on cooperative play will attract those seeking a challenge.
    • A belief that the greatest sense of accomplishment comes when it is shared - and earned.

     

    As a sidenote, I also want to mention that EQOA, which is tied for my favorite MMO of all time (alongside FFXI) did use the MDD model.  This is important because my two favorite games both used different models for kill credit, and were both open-world games.  So at the end of the day, I am not writing MDD off.  But one memory I have with EQOA is that my guild always got kill credit on contested encounters whereas with FFXI competition felt more legitimate.  Any time multiple guilds were DPS Racing against a raid boss in EQOA, it was almost inevitable that the mob would die because the encounters simply weren't designed to be killed by an unknown amount of people.  As a hardcore raider, I think MDD will create a more favorable competitive landscape for my playstyle.  I never saw an underdog story with MDD.  You either rolled with the best guild or you lost every race ... and that is the crux of the issue.

    If we're going MDD ... so be it!  But that model basically encourages competition ... kill credit is defined as "most damage done" not "who got there first."  I think it's important to accept that, and own it.  If there are going to be rules in place to prevent kill-stealing, that is also something that needs to be clearly defined.  If it's open to interpretation, it will create an enormous burden for the CS team.  Looking at Gnasshura in Halnir Cave ... there is a door locking mechanic.  What is the purpose of that?  To prevent competition, or overwhelming the mob (aka balancing risk vs reward of an encounter that is designed for a single group)?  Will multiple groups be able to enter that room or will the room have a cap on how many players can be inside at any given point in time?  Is there a solid commitment from VR to leverage ghosting in Pantheon, as was the case in Vanguard?  I have seen it referenced quite a bit as a potential solution to some of the challenges of "too much competition" but Vanguard used FTE rather than MDD.  If ghosting is going to be used, how will the system be evolved to accommodate for an MDD model that poses new variables that didn't need to be considered in Vanguard?

    I have also seen encounter scaling referenced as a potential solution.  I would love to hear more information about that feature, if it's a part of the plan, and how it would be implemented.  Would it be possible for guilds to intentionally overwhelm an NPC with the hope of wiping another raid by triggering adds?  What about forcing a mob to flee while another guild is already fighting it?  The biggest question of all is this ... what is the goal when it comes to player vs player vs environment competition?  Will it be constant?  Are there rules, or exceptions to the rules?

     

    Please give it a rest mate! Trust in VR and let them make "Their" game.

     

    Personally, even if I don't agree with oneAD here, I'm pleased as dag gum punch we have people that are so passionate about Pantheon. 

    • 1625 posts
    April 20, 2018 3:36 PM PDT

    An other answer about FTE vs anything else is really not the solution here. You are enticed to your opinion, but that's just out of subject here OneADseven.

    • 1810 posts
    April 20, 2018 4:08 PM PDT

    Great job Baz ! :)  Keep up the good work bro !

    • Moderator
    • 8592 posts
    April 20, 2018 6:17 PM PDT

    Awesome work, Baz! :)

    • 3199 posts
    April 20, 2018 6:43 PM PDT

    @Pyde & Mauvais:  Considering that the question was one of the most commonly asked questions at PAX, I wouldn't say it's out of subject.  The point was brought up in the stream and I was following up on that with my thoughts.  I did mention that I feel MDD can work and how one of my favorite games all time used that model.  That said, I asked a few questions that I feel are reasonable.  Asking questions doesn't mean that I don't trust VR ... I just want to better understand the philosophy behind some of the decisions and would appreciate a little more insight on why/how they came to be.  If anybody watched the PAX panel you would see that most development teams appreciate having an open dialogue with the community.  Also, it was stated several times during that video that they want to hear our feedback.  I am voicing mine ... if someone disagrees with it, that's perfectly okay.

    I understand that it's a sensitive topic and that's a big reason why I feel that having a better understanding of the why/how is important.  Again, I place an enormous amount of trust in VR and I don't think it's fair to insinuate otherwise.  Joppa mentioned that it's a really deep question, and that there is a lot to speak to and it was pretty clear that we weren't going to hear any of that on a stream that was coming to an end.  I look forward to hearing Joppa elaborate on his thoughts a bit more as he mentioned that the game is being designed with all of these challenges in mind.  Any time a similar situation has come up in the past, I was always pleasantly surprised by the responses that were given.  Personally, I will be rushing to end-game and probably awarding bonus DKP to anybody who gets to level cap within a short period of time.  That's a common practice in this sort of environment (player vs player performance where time invested is usually the most important cog in power progression) and one that has always paid off.


    This post was edited by oneADseven at April 20, 2018 7:23 PM PDT
    • 20 posts
    April 20, 2018 6:57 PM PDT

    Awesome summary, thanks Baz!

    • 1303 posts
    April 21, 2018 6:30 AM PDT

    MauvaisOeil said:

    Thanks for the recap Baz, as usual !

    Weren't there info on ingame maps if they "should be" ?

    Yeah there was info and I'm going to go find that as it was something I was glad to hear.

    I'm going to go through it again now and pick out some other highlights for me...

    Re. melee combat stamina: -

    Lassiz: I was sitting here spamming abilities like I'm playing a different MMO and I'm just like "what's going on?" and I realised endurance was a lot slower recharging so you can't just button mash

    Brad: No, not fans of button mashing

    [Lassiz was definitely running out of stamina and needed to manage resources to have enough for backstabs and, more importantly later, Smoke and Mirrors for crowd control]


    Re. Environment dynamics and open world philosophy

    [Having told the story of Brad taking one step too close to a boss in Halnir Cave dungeon and a wall dropping down behind him cutting him off from the group and leaving him solo with the boss]

    Joppa: It's one of the ways we're trying to experiment with the open world mechanics like that you know it's not that every boss encounter is going to be behind a closing door but it's one of the ways we can experiment with some of that and see what kind of emergent gameplay what kind of social dynamics things like that create. Internally so far with our pre-alpha testers it's been very interesting that mechanic specifically so I'm excited to let more people experience things like that

    Lassiz: ...Are you guys going just all open world

    Joppa: It's all open world

    Lassiz: Oh man, I love that and at the same time I get scared of that

    Brad: Well and that's kind of what Chris [Joppa] is alluding to, that doesn't mean just that there's an open dungeon and everyone can just grief everyone there's going to be rules and obstacles and different mechanics that we're going to experiment with in alpha and beta. It's not just a big free-for-all

    [later in the stream]

    Lassiz: ...hypothetical. Group tagging or leap frogging in dungeons?...

    Joppa: That's a pretty heavy one to get into... the plan right now is for Most Damage Done to be the way we handle mob tagging, but that of course then raises a lot of questions a lot of caveats. It's a very philosophical question too as far as why we chose to go that way. It has a lot to do with our decision to make Pantheon an open world game... and honestly at PAX that was probably one of the most recurring questions is that pair, right. "Is it open world or is it instanced and if it's open world how are you guys planning to handle X?" So there's a lot to say there. It really gets down to the heart of what Pantheon is. ...We see an opportunity to recapture that older classic way of doing things and bring that into the market today because there's really not anyone right now embracing that the way that we want to and what that means is open world and we go into that eyes wide open and say ok there are some really amazing benefits to an open world game because of the way it builds community the way that the shared experiences are able to happen and the social bonds and constructs that are created but then there's also challenges and like I said that would take a while to speak to but it's maybe good to say that we are aware of those things and we're designing with those things in mind

    [the implication being that, though we will have open world and most damage done, there will be various 'controls' developed to alleviate the known negative aspects]


    Re. maps

    Lassiz: I definitely love the compass thing by the way on the group members

    Kilsin: See that's a tricky thing too ... one that gets talked about; a minimap or no minimap but I think the choice to have a directional compass pointer is good

    Brad: Feels right to me. Feels like enough information

    Lassiz: So there's not going to be a map? Just like old school EQ?

    Joppa: There will not be a map. If we have a map it'll be something most likely that would unfold as you actually explore the area and it would be a map that you open intentionally for you to put in your own information. So if you want to mark a landmark, if you want to mark a POI, if you want to make a note here or there that would be for you to do not for the game to do for you.

    Lassiz: Man, that's great

    Brad: But at the same time there's always people like to make maps on their own website and if that's what you want to do, go for it.

    Lassiz: Oh man, EQAtlas was my best friend

    Brad: It's really just up to the player... we're not providing a detailed map

    Kilsin: That's kinda what I like about the stuff that we're aiming for. We're trying to build communities and give them the tools to help build themselves as well. If we provided everything there'd be no need for people to work together or figure things out on their own and come together so I just love that stuff.

    Joppa: So we've decided to not have classes, we're not going to have races, we're not going to have weapons or armour!...

    [hehe flippency! Is Chris critical of the 'less is more' way or is this just a regular in-house discussion that attracts the humour?]

    Brad: You just have to discover them Chris!

    Lassiz: What about something like sense heading? Or is the compass always going to be accurate?

    Joppa: That compass at the top of the screen will not be accurate without the proper skill level. Whether we call that sense heading or whatever...


    Re. Casting

    Lassiz: How does casting work in this game? Is it 'stand still'?

    Joppa: There will be some abilities that you can do will moving and as a little tease, there's maybe some abilities that might benefit from momentum. The standard is: Come to a stop and ... cast your spell... but there will be other forms of casting as well: Casting while moving, casting benefits from momentum, things like that.

    • 1303 posts
    April 21, 2018 6:41 AM PDT

    oneADseven said:

    @Pyde & Mauvais:  Considering that the question was one of the most commonly asked questions at PAX, I wouldn't say it's out of subject.  The point was brought up in the stream and I was following up on that with my thoughts.  I did mention that I feel MDD can work and how one of my favorite games all time used that model.  That said, I asked a few questions that I feel are reasonable.  Asking questions doesn't mean that I don't trust VR ... I just want to better understand the philosophy behind some of the decisions and would appreciate a little more insight on why/how they came to be.  If anybody watched the PAX panel you would see that most development teams appreciate having an open dialogue with the community.  Also, it was stated several times during that video that they want to hear our feedback.  I am voicing mine ... if someone disagrees with it, that's perfectly okay.

    I understand that it's a sensitive topic and that's a big reason why I feel that having a better understanding of the why/how is important.  Again, I place an enormous amount of trust in VR and I don't think it's fair to insinuate otherwise.  Joppa mentioned that it's a really deep question, and that there is a lot to speak to and it was pretty clear that we weren't going to hear any of that on a stream that was coming to an end.  I look forward to hearing Joppa elaborate on his thoughts a bit more as he mentioned that the game is being designed with all of these challenges in mind.  Any time a similar situation has come up in the past, I was always pleasantly surprised by the responses that were given.  Personally, I will be rushing to end-game and probably awarding bonus DKP to anybody who gets to level cap within a short period of time.  That's a common practice in this sort of environment (player vs player performance where time invested is usually the most important cog in power progression) and one that has always paid off.

    As Joppa said "It really gets down to the heart of what Pantheon is" and it sure does.  It's fundamental to the game and needs as much discussion and analysis and feedback as possible. I would also like to hear more on the philosophy behind it not only because it obviously greatly effects the game we are all invested in, but it's generally very interesting.

    As with most aspects of the game, we generally are happy to trust in VR's vision, but that's not going to stop us talking about it and hoping our concerns are of interest to the devs and may even effect the development.

    The devs want our feedback. They say it again and again. I wish some would stop trying to squash others' opinions...

    Keep it up, oneADseven!

    • 164 posts
    April 21, 2018 9:33 AM PDT

    Okay as an actual question here. From the Stream at 59:40 (couple seconds off probably) You see a Wizard Spell fire ball spell casted and flying at the enemy 'Black Wolf Dyl'. You then see the fireball hitting the target and ricocheting off of Dyl and narrowly missing Laz.....

    Would ricocheting spells cause damage to allies or other enemies in the vacinity if it hits that person or enemy!?

    Edit: While rewatching that portion I see this happening quite a few times where Laz narrowly escapes from the Fireball redirection and actually starts around 59:33


    This post was edited by LeonSanborn at April 21, 2018 9:36 AM PDT
    • 168 posts
    April 21, 2018 4:12 PM PDT

    So I noticed that during the stream, Joppa the cleric was rarely losing mana. Now, is that because of some cheat or maybe values weren't input completely yet? Not sure but I kinda hope that changes, I love healing and love having to decide what heal to use because of mana efficiency, so always having a full mana bar would kinda make it a not so difficult job. 

    • 4320 posts
    April 23, 2018 6:03 AM PDT

    Iksar said:

    Bazgrim said:

    - The plan is for auto attack to toggle automatically when you use a damaging offensive ability.

    Rather curious about this one. Will this be something players can lock so it doesn't happen? It seems like this would be in conflict with the advice from the previous stream in Halnir where they recommended not auto-attacking damage shield mobs and only using big abilities or perhaps a 2h weapon. Would be kind of terrible to try and use just big hit abilities only to instantly go into auto attack and throw out a handful of attacks, shredding yourself in the process.

    Absolutely agree. I am also personally hoping that it's at least an option we can toggle. I'd much rather have complete control over what my character does, and it really doesn't take any extra effort to just right click on a mob to auto attack it.

    • 4320 posts
    April 23, 2018 6:11 AM PDT

    disposalist said:

    MauvaisOeil said:

    Thanks for the recap Baz, as usual !

    Weren't there info on ingame maps if they "should be" ?

    Yeah there was info and I'm going to go find that as it was something I was glad to hear.

    I'm going to go through it again now and pick out some other highlights for me...

    Re. melee combat stamina: -

    Lassiz: I was sitting here spamming abilities like I'm playing a different MMO and I'm just like "what's going on?" and I realised endurance was a lot slower recharging so you can't just button mash

    Brad: No, not fans of button mashing

    [Lassiz was definitely running out of stamina and needed to manage resources to have enough for backstabs and, more importantly later, Smoke and Mirrors for crowd control]


    Re. Environment dynamics and open world philosophy

    [Having told the story of Brad taking one step too close to a boss in Halnir Cave dungeon and a wall dropping down behind him cutting him off from the group and leaving him solo with the boss]

    Joppa: It's one of the ways we're trying to experiment with the open world mechanics like that you know it's not that every boss encounter is going to be behind a closing door but it's one of the ways we can experiment with some of that and see what kind of emergent gameplay what kind of social dynamics things like that create. Internally so far with our pre-alpha testers it's been very interesting that mechanic specifically so I'm excited to let more people experience things like that

    Lassiz: ...Are you guys going just all open world

    Joppa: It's all open world

    Lassiz: Oh man, I love that and at the same time I get scared of that

    Brad: Well and that's kind of what Chris [Joppa] is alluding to, that doesn't mean just that there's an open dungeon and everyone can just grief everyone there's going to be rules and obstacles and different mechanics that we're going to experiment with in alpha and beta. It's not just a big free-for-all

    [later in the stream]

    Lassiz: ...hypothetical. Group tagging or leap frogging in dungeons?...

    Joppa: That's a pretty heavy one to get into... the plan right now is for Most Damage Done to be the way we handle mob tagging, but that of course then raises a lot of questions a lot of caveats. It's a very philosophical question too as far as why we chose to go that way. It has a lot to do with our decision to make Pantheon an open world game... and honestly at PAX that was probably one of the most recurring questions is that pair, right. "Is it open world or is it instanced and if it's open world how are you guys planning to handle X?" So there's a lot to say there. It really gets down to the heart of what Pantheon is. ...We see an opportunity to recapture that older classic way of doing things and bring that into the market today because there's really not anyone right now embracing that the way that we want to and what that means is open world and we go into that eyes wide open and say ok there are some really amazing benefits to an open world game because of the way it builds community the way that the shared experiences are able to happen and the social bonds and constructs that are created but then there's also challenges and like I said that would take a while to speak to but it's maybe good to say that we are aware of those things and we're designing with those things in mind

    [the implication being that, though we will have open world and most damage done, there will be various 'controls' developed to alleviate the known negative aspects]


    Re. maps

    Lassiz: I definitely love the compass thing by the way on the group members

    Kilsin: See that's a tricky thing too ... one that gets talked about; a minimap or no minimap but I think the choice to have a directional compass pointer is good

    Brad: Feels right to me. Feels like enough information

    Lassiz: So there's not going to be a map? Just like old school EQ?

    Joppa: There will not be a map. If we have a map it'll be something most likely that would unfold as you actually explore the area and it would be a map that you open intentionally for you to put in your own information. So if you want to mark a landmark, if you want to mark a POI, if you want to make a note here or there that would be for you to do not for the game to do for you.

    Lassiz: Man, that's great

    Brad: But at the same time there's always people like to make maps on their own website and if that's what you want to do, go for it.

    Lassiz: Oh man, EQAtlas was my best friend

    Brad: It's really just up to the player... we're not providing a detailed map

    Kilsin: That's kinda what I like about the stuff that we're aiming for. We're trying to build communities and give them the tools to help build themselves as well. If we provided everything there'd be no need for people to work together or figure things out on their own and come together so I just love that stuff.

    Joppa: So we've decided to not have classes, we're not going to have races, we're not going to have weapons or armour!...

    [hehe flippency! Is Chris critical of the 'less is more' way or is this just a regular in-house discussion that attracts the humour?]

    Brad: You just have to discover them Chris!

    Lassiz: What about something like sense heading? Or is the compass always going to be accurate?

    Joppa: That compass at the top of the screen will not be accurate without the proper skill level. Whether we call that sense heading or whatever...


    Re. Casting

    Lassiz: How does casting work in this game? Is it 'stand still'?

    Joppa: There will be some abilities that you can do will moving and as a little tease, there's maybe some abilities that might benefit from momentum. The standard is: Come to a stop and ... cast your spell... but there will be other forms of casting as well: Casting while moving, casting benefits from momentum, things like that.

    Nice transcript disposalist! Thanks for doing that

    • 300 posts
    April 23, 2018 9:15 AM PDT

    Bazgrim said:

    - If you lose enough XP upon death that would delevel you, you will instead accumulate an XP debt.

    Can anyone tell me at what timestamp in the stream this is discussed? I've listened to the stream a couple of times, but I cannot find it.

    • 4320 posts
    April 23, 2018 9:56 AM PDT

    Wellspring said:

    Bazgrim said:

    - If you lose enough XP upon death that would delevel you, you will instead accumulate an XP debt.

    Can anyone tell me at what timestamp in the stream this is discussed? I've listened to the stream a couple of times, but I cannot find it.

    My apologies for not clarifying, but this was said by Joppa in chat during the Post-Stream Review with Lass. If you watch the VOD on Twitch with chat open, you should see his comment.


    This post was edited by Bazgrim at April 23, 2018 9:57 AM PDT
    • 300 posts
    April 23, 2018 11:45 AM PDT

    Awesome, thanks Bazgrim. That was my problem ;)

    And thank you as well for putting that summary together. It's very helpful!