I don't know if this has been discussed before. I haven't followed the fourms closely. If this has already been discussed, please drop a link and I am sure Kilsin will close this thread up for us.
The question I want to ask stems from a thread that Kilsin posted a while back about monetization. He was asking what kind of payment models the community wanted/expected. And video game monetization is something that has been on my mind in general. We all have heard about EA and its Loot Box drama. Well I was recently listening to a Paradox Podcast about the business of video games, and Episode 4: Loot Boxes. Cutting a long podcast short, the gist was that "micro transactions and loot boxes are the future." One host says that he doesn't understand why people got upset, they can just go play a different game. But then they go on to say that going forward the cost of games is so high that the only way to make game is to loot box/micro transact/etc. My reaction was "This is EXACTLY why I flip my **** about EA and Loot Boxes!" I can only "go play a different game" as long as games are being made that monetize in ways that I can stomach. If those guys at Paradox (who doesn't do much with loot boxes btw) are right, I either have to swallow the hook of micro transactions/loot boxes, or I have to give up on a hobby I have loved for decades.
Games are expensive to make. Servers are expensive to maintain. Salaries have to be paid. And gamers want value for their dollar. Oh, and there is this thing called inflation. Games cost today about the same purchase price today that they had 20 years ago, but the value of each dollar is less. A $15 dollar per month sub in 2000 would cost $21.69 in today's dollars, but people seem stuck on the $15 sub even as development costs rise in real dollars.
So back to Pantheon. We as a community seem to want the subscription model (I know I sure do). We also seem to be willing to support the game through crowd funding, knowing that it is a niche game and that other games are not moving in this direction. But what are we willing to pay?
How much would you pay per month?
What would you pay for a copy of the game?
What should expansions cost?
And as an additional curiosity, have any of you ever considered a "per minute played" model vs a monthly sub? And what would that be worth?
I seriously want Pantheon to succeed, I think we all do. I know what I am willing to shell out is far greater than most people, but I think that we as a group should seriously be thinking about some of these questions. What are people willing to pay? And knowing that increased box costs or subscription cost will keep some people away, how far should VR go? I know that they will have their own internal answer to this.
From my perspective they are already narrowing their target market based entirely on the type of game they are making. If they do what we all seem to want and put a subscription model in place, they will further be limmiting they player base. This is one of the features that we all desire from that subscription model, it weeds out less serious player as compared with a free to play model. But those of us who are left, this niche playerbase that are fanatic for this game, what are we going to do to make this a profitable venture? I am seriously curious.
How many of you would still be playing Pantheon if a box cost $100, a sub was $25 per month, and expansions were $60. Just as an example?
Just some quick inflation calculations from 2000 to 2018 US dollars: $60 then is now $86.76, $15 then is now $21.69, and $40 then is now $57.84
Inflation does pose an issue, but 15 a month I believe it more than enough for a company to keep content coming out and to make a profit.
To answer the question, I would LOVE to have them to make the game sub base. With large expansions possibly costing ~50-60 bucks. NO loot boxes and no pay2win. If there is a shop let it be cosmetics only.
I am not the average consumer, but I do not consider myself to be inelastic when it comes to the price here. I didn't mind the $39 legends server when EQ proposed it originally. For the value I'm getting out of these games, this is not a large monthly expense. I would support any monthly price point that allowed the developers to reasonably profit, create meaningful content, and maintain a reliably functioning game, all while avoiding having to monetize other aspects of the game in order to generate profit or advance new content.
Playing on Corinav right now, it is fascinating to watch how the Krono simply destroys a server economy in a matter of days. Something like this certainly provides the developer with a means to combat real-money-transfers for in game items through 3rd parties (thus cutting them out of the revenue completely), but I would much more heavily value a game with greater integrity in terms of the borders it sets with the real world economy. Charge me what you want in order to get INTO the game, but then make my money irrelevant to anything I do IN the game.
I can't agree with $15 being more than enough, though it may turn out that it is all the player base are willing to pay.
I have played... many MMOs, most started as sub based games. I can't think of many that stayed sub based. A quick look at MMORPG.com doesn't show many games that are listed as having a sub model. I played both SWTOR and ESO at launch, and both of those games quickly dropped the sub model. Both games had a huge population boost after dropping subs, and both became more profitable. Remember for a moment that a video game company exists to make money, that without it they go bankrupt. How many people can they get to pay $15 a month, and what costs does that cover? Remember that population drop post launch is the norm, how much overhead are we covering now?
I hope I am wrong. I know that in an early stream that Brad mentioned that he expected that a sub model in the $15 per month zone was going to be what they shipped with. But with Kilsin posting the question about monetization, with my experiences in other games, and with what is going on in the industry at large, I have my doubts.
15 dollars a month is more then enough to maintain the servers needed for the amount of concurrent users during prime time...Last i checked for 10k concurrent users and peak times your looking at 1500 a month in rent. 150,000k is more then enough per 10k players for this rent and of course the mmo has other cost with employees dedicated in this area added to the rent.
The more concurrent players at peak hours doesn't scale exactly it gets more expensive as the number goes up but not extremely so. Its been a while..
Still would probably have to charge for those expansions because new content isnt cheep.
I have played... many MMOs, most started as sub based games. I can't think of many that stayed sub based. A quick look at MMORPG.com doesn't show many games that are listed as having a sub model. I played both SWTOR and ESO at launch, and both of those games quickly dropped the sub model. Both games had a huge population boost after dropping subs, and both became more profitable. Remember for a moment that a video game company exists to make money, that without it they go bankrupt. How many people can they get to pay $15 a month, and what costs does that cover? Remember that population drop post launch is the norm, how much overhead are we covering now?
What does a population boost means if he brings back no money ?
I mean, would you prefer to have 1000 players paying a sub, or 2000 players with 500 paying a sub and 1500 not doing so ?
Swtor and Teso fell in the same shortcuts : Short term sight and milking the fans. The few that subs thoses games get little advantage, small in comparison to what F2P users get. But they are willing to pay more and more, and thoses games focus on the content they make money with. Not raids, not dungeons (or Flashpoints, whatever), but cartel market / Crowns gear.
Then, even if it's a "viable" economic option, it just drops the game into the abyss of weekly releases of new cosmetics, emotes, flashies and exclusive things for real money, with the game gaining no depth.
If the choice was having no pantheon or a F2P pantheon, I'd opt for the first one, as sad as it sounds.
Generally speaking, what I expect to pay for an MMO is $50 for a base game, $40 for expansions and $15 a month. With that said, though, Pantheon sets itself apart since I am considering supporting its creation. I am very aware of the changes that have happened in the gaming industry, and especially within the MMO genre. As someone who is aware of these things, I would not be opposed to continuing my support of the game in some way if I felt that was genuinely assisting in securing its continued health. As someone who will have (hopefully) helped fund its creation in some small way, I would / will have a vested interest in ensuring that it succeeds.
I'm not 100% sure what the best way to go about presenting anyone who feels that way with an option would be. I agree that a sub fee is both a game support function and a 'quality' screen. People who are devoted to this will pay up--people who aren't won't. I do feel empathy for anyone who can't pay up but would like to, but at the same time I do feel that, to a certain extent, a fee does act as a certain (albeit not perfect) level of troll repellent. I'm not personally against options that will let me somehow choose to give more support when / if I can, but I also don't think it would necessarily be wise to raise the base cost of a monthly subscription across the board. While many of us who will undoubtedly end up playing and loving the game might be able to afford it, $15 might be all that someone can afford on a continued basis, and I don't think that contribution should be understated.
As for whether I am against options that present some form of items or services for monetization? Yes and no. I certainly don't want to support anything that is directly pay to win or which gives players a tangible and unobtainable advantage. I'm not against cosmetic options, however. I think it is important to have these in the game as well, but if they were targetted and marketed as rewards for people wanting to support the game or its world, since the backing of the community for this game is a matter of pride and certainly no secret, I don't necessarily think that would be bad. Done in balance with, as opposed to at the expense of quality things in game, I think it could present a way to continue to patron the game in some way if someone has the finances and inclination to do so. I patron several of my favorite creators on YouTube when I would still (technically) be able to enjoy them without doing that. As such, I see nothing wrong with wanting to support this game long term, either.
I'd drop 60-80 for initial base release, probably $15-25 a month for sub, and expect expacs to cost about the same as base game. I'm not opposed to any of that.
That being said, I'd LOVE to help fuel their bank accounts by spending (plus shipping) $50 on plushies, $30 on Tshirts, etc etc. I'd be quite happy to proudly represent the game in a physical format, as well. I am even writing this while sitting next to the caster-elf figurine from the original EQ on my shelf, the cloth map hanging on my wall, and the shiny golden lunchbox (cause that's what the case is now) proudly displayed in vision of anyone who enters the room. I think this could be a fun way for them to bring in some extra income to help keep costs low that DOESNT feel like micro-transactions, as we get loot from it too.
I'd also be willing to do a LootCrate kind of subscription for the game, but not for in-game items. I want in game content to be achievable by all, not just who has extra to pay for it. But a box/package at my door once a month including new lore about Pantheon, maybe a dev-signed picture, a pen, some stickers? It'd probably make my day every time it arrives.
Time to drop some hammers on this one:
Kilsin said:As much as I love the reasons behind this discussion, we have had it before and our answer has not changed, we will be opting for somewhere around the regular subscription fee price that you would typically expect with any AAA MMORPG for many reasons, but one of the most important is, what could we reasonably charge over another AAA game that has spent $500,000,000 on their title?
Fictional Example: If ESO spends half a billion dollars on their MMORPG and we spend 10 million (for arguments sake a made up number) how can we justify charging our community and anyone that plays our game more money than the industry standard, what can we offer over ESO that would allow us to charge more?
The answer is more complicated than you think but it is not something we are considering at this time, we have publicly stated that we will be sticking to a relatively normal and expected monthly subscription fee for Pantheon, there has been talk within the community of charging for a premium server(s) but this is something we are not completely sold on either as it splits the community up and again, there would need to be a reason to charge more for certain servers. :)
I just wanted to jump in and let you know this before the thread became as long as the last one! You are free to discuss this as much as you like but keeping in mind what our answer is on the subject. ;)
Aradune said:I've said all of this before but it does come up often, so I don't mind re-stating this when necessary:
First, no F2P/pay-to-win/cash shops. Period.
We will either use the good old sub model, or possibly a modular model, where you pay for the game, then each expansion, etc. We're not ready to set that in stone.
As for what the sub would be, the plan is the traditional $15 a month. Yes, we have talked with each other and the community and I think a lot of players, assuming we do make a great game, would pay more. And maybe we do explore premium servers. It's all possible. But, in general, if we go subs, to play Pantheon after the trial period, it would be $15 a month.
...
And if we did charge more, that's what we would do with it -- make sure your money is spent on making a better game for you, a better experience, better CS, etc.
But at this point, the plan is (for regular servers at least) to charge $15. I think it would be foolish of us to proclaim 'we are a premium MMO and therefore we are going to charge everyone more!'
I do like the idea of being thought of as a premium MMO developer -- but I think we have to earn that respect first.
Also from Brad/Aradune:
If we can reach a reasonable percentage of those who already do love Pantheon AND those who would once given a chance to experience it, then we will have success, the game will grow, expansions with new content and crazy new features will be released, and we'll have another game on our hands that's still running even 17 years after launch. 15 million online gamers (a conservative number, btw)? 10% is still 1.5M. 1% is 150,000 gamers. EQ was very successful and profitable at 150,000 gamers, peaking at 550k. Small numbers yes when compared later to WoW, but plenty large enough to employ a dedicated dev team, live teams, expansion teams, support and GM/CS teams, etc. etc. Especially a company like Visionary Realms, where we run lean and mean. We don't have huge overheads, a publisher who takes a huge cut, needless bureaucracy, 9-5ers, people who won't wear multiple hats and do whatever it takes.
And while I'm convinced we will be much closer to 10% than 1%, probably even higher, the point is that while we don't need a massive ton of people to achieve success, we do need to make a large number of people aware and familiar with the game.
I've wondered about this as well. I'm surprised that game box prices and monthly subs and haven't gone up with inflation. Have you heard the stories from the mid-90s MMOs that charged based on time played? And people got bills for hundreds of dollars in the mail. It's crazy to think people were willing to play a game with that payment model, but I guess because the idea of online games was so new.
I'd be willing to pay $20 or even $30/month if it means no cash shop. Honestly, I'll pay as much as is needed to keep the game going if I love it. I think if VR is ever in financial trouble, they should tell the community that their options are 1.) Shut the game down, 2.) Raise the monthly fee to $XX/month, 3.) Open a cash shop. Then it's up to the community to voice their opinion on which path they want forward. That's better than surprising us with a blog explaining their new payment model.
How much would you pay per month? It depends on the level of service! Am I going to see active GMs in the world with various events happening weekly/monthly? Am I going to get somewhat prompt answers/assistance from GMs when I petition them? I'd pay $30 per month for something like that. Or is it going to be like all the other modern MMOs with almost zero GM events and interaction (and taking days to answer a petition)? At that point I'd only be willing to pay the industry standard $15 per month.
What would you pay for a copy of the game? For the standard version around $60 or so, collectors edition $100.
What should expansions cost? I'm not a fan of the expansion model, but if that is the model VR goes with I'd prefer it be cheap so the game remains accessible to new players. The price should be $30 or less. Either that, or the expacs should come bundled with the original game later on for $60.
Pay per minute is horrifying to me, that would get extremely expensive if I binged. I think that would actually bother me even more than a cash shop! Speaking of that I think since most MMOs are "free to play" these days you really need to show people value for their subscription...it is not so much about having a cheap subscription as it is about having features and services that justify it. Think value compared to cheap. Yes some game studios have insanely high budgets for their MMOs but that doesn't mean a thing to the niche audience following Pantheon...we are looking for something more than fast and easy combat + pretty graphics we are looking for a return to the RPG.
How much would you pay per month? $15
What would you pay for a copy of the game? nothing
What should expansions cost? $30 to $50 depending on the mount of content.
you guys have to remember that the world is not only USA, most of the world also loves playing good MMOs but cant pay more than 15$/month.
I like very much brads idea, that you dont have to buy the game and you can play demo, this will help to bring people to the game.
I also think that instead of "buying" the gamem you can have a "starter pack"... that have one month of subscription, couple of medium bags, extra bank slots and some king of fluff item like "spectacles of perception" that slightly increase the perception skill, but decrease dexterity and stamina bu the same amount.
Doesn't charging for expansions mean gating people out if they don't pay? I really hope we won't be splitting the community like that. I'd much rather pay an extra £5 a month or more and have expansions be free.
If it would mean keeping the show on the road I would definitely pay for a premium server that's double the subs, but, again, I'd prefer the community weren't split.
I see the massive value of a demo program, but I'm very worried about gold-sellers, botters and, let's face it, baddy kids messing up the low-level play. I hope there are strict limitations on free players to constrain possibly 'bad' behaviours.
Good topic. I guess pricing for me all depends on what am I getting for my investment. Also let me say I am a Pathfinder, just to put my words into context, since we are talking investment in the game. I am not rich either, so I dont have money to throw around. I work for a utility company, a technician. But if the promise of Pantheon is to be believed...then I would pay a premium as a hedge against the game becoming a carnival MMORPG. Exactly what that number would be I couldn't say at this point 20? 25? for a sub? maybe....but I would pay more for a true MMORPG that stays true to that genre. I DO NOT like or support any F2P models. 1Also I think that buying in game items with RL money, especially vendors in-game, is tacky, ruins immersion, and definitely attracts the wrong crowd of subscriber ( dont care how that sounds).
Let is also be said that my support falls away when a game developer forgets its community and subscribers.
disposalist said:Doesn't charging for expansions mean gating people out if they don't pay? I really hope we won't be splitting the community like that. I'd much rather pay an extra £5 a month or more and have expansions be free.
If it would mean keeping the show on the road I would definitely pay for a premium server that's double the subs, but, again, I'd prefer the community weren't split.
I see the massive value of a demo program, but I'm very worried about gold-sellers, botters and, let's face it, baddy kids messing up the low-level play. I hope there are strict limitations on free players to constrain possibly 'bad' behaviours.
I like the idea of a premium server that way the whole community always has access. I couldnt agree more about the Plat bots and they get in on these free starter packs. No better way to speed up a games economy going to the shitter.
I like the idea of going for $15 per month. Cynwolf mentioned rough estimates for server costs, but I wonder what GM costs per player are. Just some super ballpark napkin math (1 GM per 200 online players, 30 hours per month avg for each account, $20 per hour for GM pay) gets you to $3 of your monthly sub going to GMs, which would be a significant portion of the cost if it is at all accurate. If those numbers are close though, then I think $15 per month seems like it could provide a good profit margin and be acceptable for a large playerbase.
I side with disposalist on the premium servers. It would definitely create the feel of a two tier society for me. I would pay for the additional GM coverage because I want to get the best possible Pantheon experience, not because I think it's necessarily the best application of funds. Part of me would hate myself for paying the fee.
As for free trials, I think VR has made it clear that it's an important part of their business model. I was surprised to hear that they wanted to do free trials, but I can certainly believe that it would help people buy in to have tried the game. Not everyone has the blind faith that we do! What I would love though is a toggle for "receive messages from paid accounts only". If I were in the level range of trial accounts or if I were part of an in-game guide program, then I would leave the toggle off, but if I were level 50 and didn't want to hear any gold spam, then I would toggle it off. Hopefully that kind of system would allow the free trial players get a nearly full game experience and allow the rest of us to opt out of gold spam.
We have several discussions on this topic, most of which have been closed due to people being unable to discuss this topic in a mature fashion but our official stance is that we will release our price structure closer to release, we will not be taking feedback on this subject though.
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/search?query=subscription&type=forum_topic&submit=