After watching the newest stream i was devistated to hear there will be only one hotbar, I hate the way ESO and similar mmos do this. I find it boring to hit 5 or six buttons then repeat, it takes away skill based combat IMO. Sure you have to be tactical on what skills to choose before hand but will combat be fun pressing them same few buttons for hours on end ?
I have been playing eq2 for many years and am used to having at least 25 skills to use (depending on class). I know what each one does too and i dont use combat macros. If we are limited, every other player is going to use the same spec and will have a similar skill level as the rotations will be easy.
Anyways i read somewhere it was similar to how EQ1 was so i am downloading that to see what to expect. Maybe i will be wrong.
I just hope its not going to be too limiting.
Anyways what are your thoughts ?
Sometimes less is more. ESO combats fault isn't due to the hotbar but that the NPCs not having enough variation or difficulty. It's doesn't matter a great deal what you do as long as your spamming your abilties and dodging attacks. Pantheon is more about using the right abilties and getting it right.. enough of the time, if you don't you're penalized for it.
I like the one hotbar, I am thinking the idea is to selectively choose which skills for a particular encounter with which to fill the hotbar. If weapons cannot be easily switched in combat maybe the same with hotbar items? Or maybe hotbar items able to be switched- but like when medding- and weapons not to be switched.
I hear ya and I've never had a problem with a couple or three bars of abilities to choose from, but it is 12 buttons. That's quite a few abilities to choose from. ESO was frustratingly few. Others have way too many. Maybe 12 is perfect?
We are in pre-Alpha still and that hotbar was one of the things they said was still in evaluation.
I think the problem with one hot bar is....
(from the FAQ)
10.5 Will players be able to make ‘macros’?
There will be plenty of / (slash) commands that players can assign to hot keys. Likewise, the GUI will be customizable. However, players will not be able to create hotkeys that automate playing their character nor chain a long list of commands together.
If your abilities/skills are taking up all the (last stream shown - 14) slots, where do the /commands, clickies (shortcut), potions (shortcut), etc. go?
There are plenty of games which have very good combat systems, and only really allow you to have a few abilities. For example, many extremely popular and engaging FPS games have "run" "attack" "switch weapon", "throw grenade" and "use bandage/use radar beacon/semtex/etc.", which is really just 5 abilities with changes on the fifth depending on your loadout.
I think it's alot more about how much you need to actually react to the game and exactly what your opponent is doing. An enemy predictably swinging is plain boring, an enemy making red circles of death or something is ok, an enemy who actually makes you need to dodge, block, and time your attacks/special abilities (or take a lot of damage you don't need to take) is fantastic.
BeaverBiscuit said:
There are plenty of games which have very good combat systems, and only really allow you to have a few abilities. For example, many extremely popular and engaging FPS games have "run" "attack" "switch weapon", "throw grenade" and "use bandage/use radar beacon/semtex/etc.", which is really just 5 abilities with changes on the fifth depending on your loadout.
I think it's alot more about how much you need to actually react to the game and exactly what your opponent is doing. An enemy predictably swinging is plain boring, an enemy making red circles of death or something is ok, an enemy who actually makes you need to dodge, block, and time your attacks/special abilities (or take a lot of damage you don't need to take) is fantastic.
That may be fine for Melee characters, but what about casters? Just stand in the back of the fight and spam the same 5 keys over and over?
I'd like to weigh in on the side of "not having all your abilities available all the time."
I'm not prepared to say how many abilities that is, whether that means one hotbar or several, or how long a hotbar should be. I figure we work that out in Pre-Alpha, Alpha, and Beta.
Bonechip said:I think the problem with one hot bar is....
(from the FAQ)
10.5 Will players be able to make ‘macros’?
There will be plenty of / (slash) commands that players can assign to hot keys. Likewise, the GUI will be customizable. However, players will not be able to create hotkeys that automate playing their character nor chain a long list of commands together.
If your abilities/skills are taking up all the (last stream shown - 14) slots, where do the /commands, clickies (shortcut), potions (shortcut), etc. go?
The impression I got from the devs in the last stream was there might well be hotbars for macro buttons, just maybe not more than one hotbar for abilities, but even that isn't set in stone yet.
I think there is some confusion on skills, abilities, spells, and hotbar windows.
Many of us here are acclimated to the way EQ does it, and I do not think there are many here that want "all your abilities available all the time."
For me, the ideal way to do it is have one (XX) slot "Primary" window that.. Casters, Melee, and Hybrids can load up their various skills/abilities/spells on.
Have another window (or windows) that are general use hotbars. These would be for /command macros, and shortcuts (item clickies, potions, etc)
Example 1:
A Halfling Ranger could load up (X) spells, their racial hide ability, forgage ability, and Melee skills on the Primary window (in any combination they want, but limited by the number of slots it has).
And have other general use hotbar(s) loaded up with whatever else they want on them (that are not skills/abilities/spells).
Example 2:
A Human Summoner could load up their Primary window with just spells (even though they have the option to add a racial abiltiy, and/or melee skills)
And have other general use hotbar(s) loaded up with whatever else they want on them (that are not skills/abilities/spells).
Just spitballing.
My takeaway from what I've listened to is that they are considering one core hotbar for abilities, but that there may be additional hotbar spaces for commands, etc.
Personally, my primary concern will be whether I can choose the keybinds for each space where my key abilities will be. I can hit 1-6 no problem while moving, but 7-= tend to be a bit more dicey and I don't want to be hitting the wrong skill. Being able to make those (for example) CTRL 1-6 tends to make my ability to play my character / reach all my skills far more consistent. I might set up 7-= with text macros, etc. that aren't as crucial to whether or not my group is going to die, but that's another matter.
I too am an EQ2 player and have the same concerns. Even though I hate EQ2 now since Theybreak games took over and quit one week after the latest expansion I really liked having ALL my abilities available to me as and when I needed them.Another problem with one hotbar is for support and healers, will that bar be full of heals,resses and buffs for them with little room for damage abilities/spells? Imagine having 6 buffs and 4 heals and one or two res spells. You know the DPS isn't going to let you drop a spell that buffs them lol
splitpawthanos said:I too am an EQ2 player and have the same concerns. Even though I hate EQ2 now since Theybreak games took over and quit one week after the latest expansion I really liked having ALL my abilities available to me as and when I needed them.Another problem with one hotbar is for support and healers, will that bar be full of heals,resses and buffs for them with little room for damage abilities/spells? Imagine having 6 buffs and 4 heals and one or two res spells. You know the DPS isn't going to let you drop a spell that buffs them lol
I'm thinking, out of combat, you'd be able to load in your saved 'buffs' hotbar, which would 'memorise' those spells (or whatever the mechanic is), cast all your buffs, then load back (re-memming) your 'combat' hotbar.
So you wouldn't be able to refresh buffs mid-combat, unless you put very important ones in your combat hotbar, but you would have 12 slots for your actual in-combat only stuff and that sounds like not a bad amount for a few heals, damage spells, de-buffs and whatever.
katryn said:My takeaway from what I've listened to is that they are considering one core hotbar for abilities, but that there may be additional hotbar spaces for commands, etc.
This is how I interpret it as well.
To use a caster as an example, you could only have a limited number of spells up at a time (approximately 1 hotbar worth), but of course you could have other hotbars with things like /assist or /sit etc.
I like the idea of one hotbar. Played a few years, with a visit here or there, of EQ2. That's exactly what's keeping me from returning again is the vomit of two dozen 'attack skills'. One attack does the same function as another attack but the twist is it's AoE. I honestly applaud people who have alts and know exactly what the three dozen skills do for each of their characters. That's just not me. Way too much work.
Now, I do appreciate having a second hotbar for any gate / teleport to city / summon horse / summon vanity pets spells-skills-items. Then a third hotbar for the clickies and a few macro emotes.
Take a look at current Everquest. It started out with 8 Gem (spell) slots and what a 2x4 or 2x5 hotbar that was rotatable with 10 deep. Attack , Kick , Slam , Taunt, Sense heading, bandage, .... Now there's a potion bar, bandoilier, some other high level alternate skill mini hot bar? It's a mess.
I'm sure over time Pantheon will add new features with some new UI elements. One hotbar , ten hot bars , please just try to plan ahead a little to avoid future new players having a screen full of learning curve hotbars.
katryn said:My takeaway from what I've listened to is that they are considering one core hotbar for abilities, but that there may be additional hotbar spaces for commands, etc.
Personally, my primary concern will be whether I can choose the keybinds for each space where my key abilities will be. I can hit 1-6 no problem while moving, but 7-= tend to be a bit more dicey and I don't want to be hitting the wrong skill. Being able to make those (for example) CTRL 1-6 tends to make my ability to play my character / reach all my skills far more consistent. I might set up 7-= with text macros, etc. that aren't as crucial to whether or not my group is going to die, but that's another matter.
This is exactly what I tend to do! Though I do think I thend to use SHIFT 1-6, but technicalities. I still kept everything to that side of the keyboard and made use of being able to stack hotbars in order to mimic where the keys were. I also re-bound my function keys simply because they were easier to reach than going across the keyboard.
Maybe we're the weird ones. =O
To be fair though, I don't mind the less is more approach, but I would greatly appreciate being able to change the super long 1x12 bar into a 2x6 block of buttons.
Bonechip said:That may be fine for Melee characters, but what about casters? Just stand in the back of the fight and spam the same 5 keys over and over?
Pantheon will have a cooldown rotation+auto attack system. You represent an extreme faction who feels that we should have as many cooldowns/abilities as possible to spend our time focusing on. Please remember, however, that there are those of us on the other extreme who feel that cd rotation/auto attack systems are fake, unimmersive, unnecessary, and boring. VR will be aiming at a compromise between both of us.
In addition to needing to focus on your cooldowns and mana bar (and it looks like there will be quite a bit of that even with reduced hotbars), Pantheon will include combat details guys like me know and love, such as these:
Games like Dark Souls do a good job proving that ranged combat can be engaging without many abilites-even in groups. Quality over Quantity.
Further notes on engaging players in Pantheon:
There are a large number of mechanics VR will be adding to combat in Pantheon besides just CD rotation/mana awareness. Many of them will effect ranged characters just fine. You should hopefully be able to feel plenty engaged, even without a massive number of abilities=).
As usual, it's best to first consult the FAQ to get an idea of VR's overall design philosophy:
There will be a traditional auto-attack system. Passive abilities will trigger automatically during combat (dodge, parry, etc.). This gives the player the time to focus on selecting abilities and spells (magic missile, fireball, counterspells, deflections, etc.) based on what’s going on tactically in combat.
We realize that some MMOs have used a more ‘action’ oriented combat system, where you click on different buttons to attack, swing your sword, dodge, etc. With Pantheon, combat will still be action-packed and require close attention, using tactics, as well as reacting to what mobs and other players may be doing. In fact, so much will be going on that you will not want to have to worry about whether you are swinging your sword or not -- you will be casting spells, assuming stances, countering or deflecting your opponent’s moves and spells, and more. Additionally, while you can either click directly on a mob or simply use the tab key to change targets, there will also be a subset of spells where you can target the ground (for example, some area-of-effect spells).
The player will have enough time to react to what the NPC is doing (counterspell, deflect, move out of the way, etc.). Combat is more involved and the player will need to pay attention, but it is not ‘twitch’ in the way a first-person shooter is.
We’re considering it. We don’t want to create a detailed combo system but we like the idea of synergetic abilities and the opportunity for players abilities to open up possible actions for others. We will reveal more in the future.
Combat statistics, formulas, weapon damage, weapon delay, resource pools, regeneration, etc. are all things we are constantly tweaking and monitoring. While we are at the point we need to be right now, we don’t consider anything final. Tweaking and balancing an MMO is an ongoing process.
The idea then is to strike a fine balance between having enough abilities available to make you feel like you have a sufficient variety/amount of tools for a given battle, but not so many that you spend all your time staring at your hotbars because you can just repeat the same combos over and over and are always prepared for no matter what the mobs do, thus making it less interesting and less difficult. The goal is to make it tactical and also keep your eyes on the world, not the UI. Easier said than done for sure.
disposalist said:Bonechip said:I think the problem with one hot bar is....
(from the FAQ)
10.5 Will players be able to make ‘macros’?
There will be plenty of / (slash) commands that players can assign to hot keys. Likewise, the GUI will be customizable. However, players will not be able to create hotkeys that automate playing their character nor chain a long list of commands together.
If your abilities/skills are taking up all the (last stream shown - 14) slots, where do the /commands, clickies (shortcut), potions (shortcut), etc. go?
The impression I got from the devs in the last stream was there might well be hotbars for macro buttons, just maybe not more than one hotbar for abilities, but even that isn't set in stone yet.
Yeah that's definitely what Joppa said. I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if there are additional hotbars for macros and other non-combat hotkeys. But we will see.
Bonechip said:
BeaverBiscuit said:There are plenty of games which have very good combat systems, and only really allow you to have a few abilities. For example, many extremely popular and engaging FPS games have "run" "attack" "switch weapon", "throw grenade" and "use bandage/use radar beacon/semtex/etc.", which is really just 5 abilities with changes on the fifth depending on your loadout.
I think it's alot more about how much you need to actually react to the game and exactly what your opponent is doing. An enemy predictably swinging is plain boring, an enemy making red circles of death or something is ok, an enemy who actually makes you need to dodge, block, and time your attacks/special abilities (or take a lot of damage you don't need to take) is fantastic.
That may be fine for Melee characters, but what about casters? Just stand in the back of the fight and spam the same 5 keys over and over?
Absolutely not. With advanced AI and NPC Dispositions, mobs will be smart enough to realize that the casters are safely in the back dealing a lot of damage and will specifically target the casters/healers and use abilities to keep them on their toes which the player will of course have to react to or suffer the consequences. The Dispositions in general will go a long way in making combat more dynamic and exciting for everyone. Currently you can have 12 abilities hotkeyed (not 5 lol). I'd think that's enough variety of tools to make you really have to think about when and how to use them. Like Disposalist said, I personally think 12 may actually be the perfect balance. But long story short: it's too early to tell - we'll have more info to reference in Alpha and Beta
Stevie said:Anyways i read somewhere it was similar to how EQ1 was so i am downloading that to see what to expect. Maybe i will be wrong.
Please for the love of God don't look at EQ1 in its current state to give you an idea of what to expect in Pantheon lol. It has drifted far, far from its roots that Pantheon is aiming to bring back. Expectations in general are useless garbage and do more harm than good. My advice would be to take Pantheon as it is and don't bother trying to compare it to anything else - that will only taint your understanding. Just wait and see what VR comes up with :)
As development progresses, Pantheon is looking less like old EQ and more like Vanguard.
The game is years away from full release at it's current pace and like EQ1 and Vanguard, very little from alpha's and beta stayed the same to launch.
One has only to look at what EQ1 has become some 19 years after it's launch. Nothing is anything close to the same, except maybe the trains.
Yeah that's definitely what Joppa said. I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if there are additional hotbars for macros and other non-combat hotkeys. But we will see.
I hope so. Because having fishing, "mount" or tradeskill keys competing with my combat skills would really push me away from them. However, 12 abilities with proper costs and cooldowns are way than enough, most MMO's nowaday only have an extensive amount of skills are tied to some semi-crumbling gameplay (like FFXIV with "combos" taking tremendous amounts of keys and making the gameplay rigid), or an overwhelming amount of off-GCD abilities that ultimately devaluate the impact of GCD management.
I'm pretty sure it will be more than enough to have a dynamic and strategic gameplay, just watch Cohh playing, he was often Stamina starved while only using kick/waylay/backstab, not to say when he started using his bleed and poison. The dynamic of melee classes with stamina, and hopefully stamina + mana for hybrids, is some of the most interesting things I want to see flourishing.
If they do have additional hotbars I hope they work like these from FFXIV. These are set up via player macros and such and are not innate to the game/ui so it could be made even better/smoother if designed that way from the get-go:
http://www.imgur.com/Lst5ecA.gif
https://thumbs.gfycat.com/SilentDeadHerald-size_restricted.gif
https://thumbs.gfycat.com/GrayDisgustingArgali-size_restricted.gif
https://thumbs.gfycat.com/DesertedPinkBelugawhale-size_restricted.gif
A simple 1 key/click to show/hide hotbar(s) for things like macros, mounts, clicky items, potions, etc.
While 12 abilities which are needed in combat is probably sufficient what about all your utility abilities or spells? Such as fishing, tracking, direction sense etc etc. Or utility spells such as summon food, summon drink, levitate etc etc.
This concerns me if their will only be one hot bar. hopefully they reconsider this. 12 combat oriented spells or abilities seems fine but what about all the utility oriented abilities and spells?
I really do not want to have to switch between different hot bars just to play the game would rather have my combat oriented abilities on one hot bar, my utility bases abilities on another and another hot bar for items, mounts and macros.
