Preechr said: It’s my impression that gaming in general is teaching young players that everything but skill matters, so their primary interest in any game becomes getting to level cap then accumulating “the best” gear as quickly as possible Once they’ve done that, if they are not the best player in the game, they quit Starting in forum posts or game chat, the questions usually go something like: What’s the best dps class in this game? What’s the fastest way to level up? What’s the best gear for my rogue? Where can I get the best weapons for my rogue? What’s the best build for my rogue? What rotation should I use? For each of these questions there will a few players like us trying to explain that these are the wrong questions, but there will inevitably be answers provided For most games, not just MMOs, this is the path to success, and it has become the expectation... anything else is a boring, grindy game for no-lifers Not sure that the existence of parsers or min-maxers is the root problem, but rather the mentality these things feed I think it’s a social problem that needs a social answer I love helping new players, but I keep seeing these questions and I’ve grown weary of trying to counter the trend When I try to explain that skill and knowledge matters more, I usually get tuned out and the blanks get filled in from other sources Rarely I’ll see young players saying, “OK, I’ve got the right gear and the right build... so why does my dps suck so bad?” These are the few that got to the end of what most games expect and finally realize the game they are playing really does require actual skill and that they won’t be able to be good taking shortcuts Most of them just quit when they get there, however, because the kid feels they made the correct investment in the game and it didn’t pay off so the game must be stupid The social solution would defeat this mentality early on somehow, though I have no idea how that could be done
Great post.
Ainadak said:For me the biggest part is making it feel less like a math problem and more like a cost benefit analysis. You can expand horizontally as some have described and that certainly helps open up the field of what is optimal when. If there is enough of that situation differentiation, then the question "what's best for me" will be answered with a "well....", which is wonderful. However, I think a big part of it comes into accessibility and what I want is a game where you can determine what the BiS is, but the top BiS for a situation is outrageously difficult to acquire, the second top BiS would be absurdly difficult to acquire, the third being very difficult, and so on and so forth. What I would like is for people to be able to calculate what the BiS is, then say "that's far too difficult for me to get, what is the best value for the commitment that I'm willing to put in?" If it is reasonable to acquire anything that exists, then you might as well save time by only getting the best. If there are better options that you cannot reasonably acquire, then the question becomes a cost benefit analysis. Sure, the BiS dragon killing sword may be A and the next best is B, but if I spend a few days farming C or D, then maybe that's good enough for me. If A/B aren't in the game, then it is instinctive to say "I'll figure out whether C or D is better, then get the best and be done sword hunting and move onto other tasks". I want people to be ask "what's best for me vs. dragons" and still be answered with a "well.....".
There may or may not always be the "correct" answer, but the more you muddy the waters, the more room there will be for people to move in different directions.
Also...
Not all modern MMO players have toxicity coursing through their veins and I hope everyone here recognizes that. It's only human to learn as much as is necessary to accomplish your goals and I think qalyar did a good job in acknowledging the practicality of parsing and googling the BiS list and optimal rotation for your class. We all hope that Pantheon will be different, but another important question is what happens to those players from modern MMOs when they get to Pantheon. Anticipating their issues is only the first step.
It is my opinion that it is the duty of both the developers and the community to welcome good meaning players and teach them how the game works with understanding and kindness. If Pantheon is filled with players who shout "go back to WoW you rotation seeking nub", then I think we have failed.
Indeed. The more "Well ....." moments we have in the game, the better. From what I have observed, we should be asking ourselves that question quite a bit before engaging in combat. I like compounding on that by requiring players to ask that same question as it pertains to who/what/when/where/why/how they can achieve the various solutions to the situational problems they are able to identify, and as often as possible. The more "Well ....." moments we find ourselves in, the less likely there is to be an ideal path of progression. That doesn't mean that players won't continue to try and develop leveling guides, build guides, etc ... but rather than there being a single, authoriative guide, you would see a robust list of guides much like you do in League of Legends.
One person may commit to creating a guide on how to acquire a set of situational ice resistance gear. It's possible that this guide will delve into other areas (or guides) but the larger the network of situations/solutions, the more difficult it is to try and formulate a plan based on any guide in the first place. Your last comment couldn't possibly be more true. My hope is that Pantheon will attract a large variety of players but it's up to our community to welcome them and break them into this style of game without running them out of town. People need to practice patience and compassion and understand that helping others will have an indirect way of helping the game succeed, and increase the likelihood of it being more widely embraced by the various demographics that VR will be targetting.
No matter how anyone wants to look at this or attempt to combat the issue, there will be mathed out rotations, gear, etc that will exist. Some form of a parser will exist whether approved or not.
The major difference in Pantheon compared to wow and other games is the actual need for the utility of each class. A good rogue may do good dmg but a great rogue will do good dmg and have the common sense to CC mobs off the healer when needed. All of those coming from wow will still have the wow mentality, as I call it, and that will either quickly fade or they will quickly find themselves being ostricized from most groups. Its the same reason a lot of people lost their minds when Cata launched and they had to learn how to CC and do actual mechanics, they cried the game was too hard.
qalyar said: @Enitzu: The desire to understand how to maximize the effectiveness of one's class when situations permit it, and the ability to respond to complex situations (such as with crowd control) are not mutually exclusive.
While true, it will be the difference between good players and not so good. This game will be slower paced which means a much easier to follow rotation. Gear will make a difference but those that don't have the time won't be able to keep up as much. Otherwise, there is no way to stop people from using meters in any form unless they completely hide the combat log from being read.
Your post was about finding ways to combat the meters being the end all be all. If the combat log is readable there will be meters. With meters, people can make SIMs. With SIMs you can quickly and easily come up with BiS gear listings/stats/etc. The only way to somewhat combat it is to push the game to where DPS is not the end all be all but rather only a part of what makes the player good.
You also have to keep in mind that tanking in this game with be much harder than any current game on the market. Tanks will have limited threat gen and the good dps will be the ones that can maximize dps while staying under the threat levels. So there's a lot of factors that will change things.
qalyar said:
WoW sports all of 4 stats these days (the "attribute" stats just scale with gear quality and offer no choices): crit, haste, mastery, versatility. What they do doesn't matter here. What matters is that the math involved is solvable, fairly trivially. Usually that means there's a "best stat" and a "second-best stat", and the goal is to merely assemble gear with those two stats (gear has two stats there), with the best stat ideally having the bigger value. Presto, a best in slot list emerges (not counting the titanforging mechanic, but that's inane and Pantheon won't be that dumb).