I think Brad mentioned somewhere, maybe Bazgrim knows the answer, that the zoneline will be large and not bottlenecked like EQ1 but caves and similiar single entry way zones will have a corridor.
Heres a thought say some zones, caves for example; entrances can shift around the zone based on whatever events. In addition, once you are inside the zone and a entrance change happens it will effect that as well causing you to find the new zoneout location. Could create some epic dungeon/cave crawls.
It would make you think twice before zoning in somewhere.
Ahh the element of danger in this lol.
I am curious yalls ideas on other examples of how this idea could be used.
EDIT
I guess I could of put this here,
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/4250/zones-with-different-exits-than-the-entrance
but I was more curious about dynamic zone entrance not static ones exampled in Sebilis/Chardok.
That could be interesting, where the lore makes sense. Like a wizard spire or something. Or maybe you zone into a dungeon and there is a cave in after you get so far.
The difficulty I see with this is that the zones aren't instance, so whatever "event" affects the group that just zoned in, it also affects everyone else that tries to come in after them, so I don't know how well that would work
Kalok said:That could be interesting, where the lore makes sense. Like a wizard spire or something. Or maybe you zone into a dungeon and there is a cave in after you get so far.
The difficulty I see with this is that the zones aren't instance, so whatever "event" affects the group that just zoned in, it also affects everyone else that tries to come in after them, so I don't know how well that would work
Ties into your living world and dymantic 'ruins' no? Something happens like as simple as time passing and an entrance collapses.
Just an idea I had and there wern;t any new stuff to talk about on the forums so, I posted :)
Zeem said:Kalok said:That could be interesting, where the lore makes sense. Like a wizard spire or something. Or maybe you zone into a dungeon and there is a cave in after you get so far.
The difficulty I see with this is that the zones aren't instance, so whatever "event" affects the group that just zoned in, it also affects everyone else that tries to come in after them, so I don't know how well that would work
Ties into your living world and dymantic 'ruins' no? Something happens like as simple as time passing and an entrance collapses.
Just an idea I had and there wern;t any new stuff to talk about on the forums so, I posted :)
Most definitely ties into the 'living world' concept. It has the potential to be really cool. I hope you have your flame retardant boxers on, because the naysayers are gonna come in guns blaazing.....
Kalok said:Most definitely ties into the 'living world' concept. It has the potential to be really cool. I hope you have your flame retardant boxers on, because the naysayers are gonna come in guns blaazing.....
I like critisim, makes me grow. And it was an open question. This is at most a post-launch thing but, I'm just generating convos, it may spark another idea in someone. I do this at work. Generates ideas.
Thanks for the feedback. Keep it coming
Makes me think of something like from the movie Goonies when they're sliding down to the Jolly Rodger(?) or whatever the pirate ship was. They don't know where they're going or even if they're all going the same way. That could be a nice idea.
People might not like the RNG aspect of it, especially if they end up on the opposite end of where they want to be, but I like it.
VicNuggets said:Makes me think of something like from the movie Goonies when they're sliding down to the Jolly Rodger(?) or whatever the pirate ship was. They don't know where they're going or even if they're all going the same way. That could be a nice idea.
People might not like the RNG aspect of it, especially if they end up on the opposite end of where they want to be, but I like it.
I like that movie, and i think the ship was The Inferno.
I like this example
Or perhaps, a vertical rotating cylinder like dungeon, with multiple levels that then opposite ways, with each level being big enough to house 4 to 5 groups comfortably so it could also have 2 to 3 "ways" the levels could "line up" Like you could only go up or down every 15-30mins depending on what part of level you're on. I can see it now, spinning and bringing slowly around, only sometimes the stairs or paths or rocks or the new climbing system, gotta jump when the next area gets close enough. If you miss, you fall below a level, where hopefully there is a friendly group there already killing mobs, if not your team, must also bite the bullet and jump down with you to save you. (or let you die and summon after, lame version) Or 3 giant floating islands, that turn slowly, and occasionally get close enough to jump or "transfer" to the other side, grind and kill and make your way to one of the other passable ledges for when the time is right to jump again. Super cool idea. Oh, and each can have it's own dynamic atmosphere, so you may only be able to hang out in one, till you get acclimated to the next area
Man, that's a pretty cool idea. Maybe have it near the gnomes, in a cogwork and gears type theme
Or maybe can work in the lore for gnomes that Pillar of energy and the Prison as a dungeon. Perhaps a big clock type theme. The dungeon crawl is the internal gearing and cogs connecting to other workings.
"Is this a pretty big clock, yes. Yet even the smallest of gnomes would have to drink a "shrink" potion to enter and navigate in any comfortable fashion "
So, a dungeon that would require everyone to use shrink spells and stuff to enter and move around.
And a rock or pillars one that is actually giant,
"stairs so steep, even the tallest Ogres had to increase his size and sometimes even use a stool for help up"
I remember a dungeon/zone in EQ1 that required my Ogre shaman to shrink himself and most everyone else, just to get in and move around. Goblins and stuff. Can't recall the name, but I remember being SO thankful for making the crazy trek to get that shrink spell a few days before. Wondering to myself along the way " why would I even need a spell like this"
THAT`S the type of stuff that made you think ahead, or realize that you would need to come back some other time when you have what you need to succeed.
Great posts, making me think of all kinds of possibilities
My question with the "cave in" concept is that if it happens when that first group walks passed, then what? Forever is the dungeon changed and there's a new path? Does that path eventually change too?
That's where you're losing me. Are these changes permanent, timed or player manipulative (IE: can player blast away at the cave in to open it) ?
I don't mind changes, but I think they should be more based on long range plans. Small changes like that, planned into expansions or updates. Nothing major enough to completely change a region, but enough to give it a freshnesh and give the players a new path. Especially if there's an area of a dungeon that players just seem to avoid or ignore.
I could see a situation where there are three or four cave entrances to a zone. All take you to a different place in the zone. Cave ins could cause one or even all of them to be blocked. Maybe they become cleared after a few RL days, maybe you need players to clear them via crafting or harvesting skills. This could have a similar effect to Darkness Falls in DAOC. Although not PvP it would be similar as as far as it would temporarily prevent players outside from accessing the zone while those that were already inside would still be able to reap its rewards.
As long as the effect is not permanent it would add a layer of uniqueness to the game.
Fulton said:My question with the "cave in" concept is that if it happens when that first group walks passed, then what? Forever is the dungeon changed and there's a new path? Does that path eventually change too?
That's where you're losing me. Are these changes permanent, timed or player manipulative (IE: can player blast away at the cave in to open it) ?
I don't mind changes, but I think they should be more based on long range plans. Small changes like that, planned into expansions or updates. Nothing major enough to completely change a region, but enough to give it a freshnesh and give the players a new path. Especially if there's an area of a dungeon that players just seem to avoid or ignore.
Could be handled in many ways. Maybe the player characters have to cooperatively dig it our. Or maybe the NPCs. Or maybe a combination of both.
I think Dynamic dungeon entrances are a great idea. It was one of the most appealing concepts from the ill fated EQ Next for me. I think there is both room for zone entrances that appear in different locations and zones that themselves change with time. The real question will be the limitations of the game engine and what can be dynamic and what must be static game maps for collision detection and world fall through prevention.
For dynamic entrances I mentioned an idea in a previous thread about perception allowing a character to spot a hidden entrance to a lair. The basic idea would be that a similar rock feature is placed in 12 locations across 3 zones. The door to the lair can only be opened by someone with the appropriate Perception flags. The lair persists until the boss is killed at which the lair begins to collapse. After a certain amount of time either players or their bodies are forced out of the lair and the lair door no longer works. 4-8 hours later randomly one of the 12 locations lair door becomes active and the dungeon repopulates. Nuts and bolts wise, it may be easier to make 12 lairs and really have the respawn, door and the zone ejection be the only dynamic things. I have a feeling though that current tech should only require creating the zone once. There is also no reason that there could not be multiple lairs in existence at once connected to those 12 points or that the layout or mob composition had to be the same each time.
Dynamic zones will most likely be harder to implement tech wise. One idea could be a huge circular chamber with a set of 4 crosswise bridges. Falling off the bridges is a virtual death trap. The entrance shelf is large enough that there is always at least one bridge that is jumpable. Otherwise the 4 bridges rotate around a central axis, say 1 revolution every 4 hours, and which of the 9 exit doors can be accessed via the bridges changes over time. Design wise you could still have the tunnels reconnect at other locations but otherwise the bridge room would be the most efficient way to get where you want to be if the bridge is in the right location. There is even an opportunity for players to impact the rate of rotation in some way which could add an extra aspect to the zone.
*edit* Just noticed Suterian posted some other great Dynamic Zone ideas *edit end*
There are limitless iterations on these two concepts and opportunities for players to trigger either the spawning of a dungeon/raid or influence the rate of respawn without resorting to instancing.
Fun topic,
Trasak
Yes, here is the quote from Aradune you're referring to:
"It is not a grid of Vanguard chunks -- Pantheon is a zoned based world. But the zones, especially the outdoor zones, are very large and it's easy for us to make them look correct, adjacent to each other. We are striving for the 'if you can see it, you can get there' goal. So we don't need to 'funnel' you through from one zone to another like we often had to in EQ. So while it's technically more like EQ, it feels more like VG. It's more open, the zones are larger (so you will see the 'loading please wait' less frequently, and the zones load pretty quickly), and we don't need to make those strange corridors between zones like we did with EQ."
I really like the idea, though, of a cave-in happening while you're in a dungeon and needing to find a new way out. It would definitely bring adventuring to a whole new level. Kind of reminds me of some of the good ideas that EQN had to make the world feel more alive. But of course, this being an open persistent world does present some difficulties. Without actually testing it in-game, it's hard to predict if this would be something that is better in theory than in practice. I don't like things where zones just randomly change their layout in an attempt to keep them "new and exciting," but if the dynamic changes make sense from a lore perspective and are at least somewhat predictable and allow you to adapt to them, I think it would probably be really cool.
Anyway, here's another Aradune quote from that same thread you might find interesting:
"The idea of different pieces of planets colliding with Terminus, bringing new races, their architecture, their gods, etc. gives us a ton of creative freedom and a really fun sandbox to play in. Part of that freedom means that one region of the world doesn't have to make sense geographically when compared to an adjacent region. The topography can totally change and in a surprising, unexpected, and yes, 'unrealistic' ways. Yes, this includes the directions rivers may seem to be running or any other 'anomaly' you may perceive in the atlas. Pantheon's world is truly fantasy, with an emphasis on the fantastic.
I realize this is different than, say, Middle Earth. I'm a huge Tolkien fan, I assure you, but so many 'fantasy' worlds (in novels, games, etc.) have also been crafted to be 'realistic fantasy' that we decided to take a different approach with Pantheon, similar to our different (non-traditional) approaches to some of the playable races, etc. Too much 'sameness' is something MMOs have been struggling with, IMHO."
(Source: https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/2184/updated-map ;)
Bazgrim said:*snip*
I really like the idea, though, of a cave-in happening while you're in a dungeon and needing to find a new way out. It would definitely bring adventuring to a whole new level. Kind of reminds me of some of the good ideas that EQN had to make the world feel more alive. But of course, this being an open persistent world does present some difficulties. Without actually testing it in-game, it's hard to predict if this would be something that is better in theory than in practice. I don't like things where zones just randomly change their layout in an attempt to keep them "new and exciting," but if the dynamic changes make sense from a lore perspective and are at least somewhat predictable and allow you to adapt to them, I think it would probably be really cool.
*snip*
This is where some PC/NPC/PC+NPC thing could come in handy to "dig out" the cave in so that it's not a "one and done" scenario.
"Train to!! ..... what zone?"
It might also make corpse runs a bit harder.
Like trying to find the character map when going from windows 8 to windows 10- or any other prior version. (New freeport)
Convo said:Fun topic guys:-) It's an interesting thought, I've have had an idea myself on this that I hope to bring to Pantheon one day.
Thanks Convo. I can see this as a future expansion idea. Maybe the expansion is in an area that has alot of seismic activity due to the Terminus event. The activity can be the backbone reason for the shifting entrances.
Convo, with your work with Unity so far is it possible to have looping scripted moving objects with full collision detection? I wonder how much of an old school Tomb Raider Player vs Environment can be built into a Player vs Enemy MMO without damaging the feel of an MMO. It would be fairly hilarious for a raid or high value dungeon to require Mario skills to complete in addition to encounter skills.
Kalok said:Bazgrim said:*snip*
I really like the idea, though, of a cave-in happening while you're in a dungeon and needing to find a new way out. It would definitely bring adventuring to a whole new level. Kind of reminds me of some of the good ideas that EQN had to make the world feel more alive. But of course, this being an open persistent world does present some difficulties. Without actually testing it in-game, it's hard to predict if this would be something that is better in theory than in practice. I don't like things where zones just randomly change their layout in an attempt to keep them "new and exciting," but if the dynamic changes make sense from a lore perspective and are at least somewhat predictable and allow you to adapt to them, I think it would probably be really cool.
*snip*
This is where some PC/NPC/PC+NPC thing could come in handy to "dig out" the cave in so that it's not a "one and done" scenario.
Yeah definitely. That would probably have to be one of several ways players could react to it.
Trasak said:Convo, with your work with Unity so far is it possible to have looping scripted moving objects with full collision detection? I wonder how much of an old school Tomb Raider Player vs Environment can be built into a Player vs Enemy MMO without damaging the feel of an MMO. It would be fairly hilarious for a raid or high value dungeon to require Mario skills to complete in addition to encounter skills.
I'd imagine this would be very possible.
This sounds like a fun idea! My first thought was Group A having been in the dungeon/area for a while and suddenly come face-to-face with Group B, who came in from an enterance from another direction.
Group A: "Wait........Where'd you come from?!"
Group B: "Our rogue noticed an opening behind some fallen rocks on the North side of Bladewind Mountain. We dug it out and followed it here. Where'd you come from?!"
Group A: "We entered the Shallow Hope mine on the South side of Bladewind Mountain........."
Now, mechanics-wise maybe there is a cave-in for when Group A gets so far, but that enables the enterence to be found that Group B came in. I see a lot of potential for this that I can get behind.
**Edit: Added thoughts**
Also, in a situation like this, the mine could be sealed until some NPC miners are able to clear it out. Maybe several days to a week or more in game time. They also may try and seal up the other enterence to keep people safe. Later on, another group of clumsy adventurers go and cause another cave in........................
Why not extend the dynamics to the dungeon that in turn inlfuences the entrances/near entrance areas.
I'm thinking about that movie, Cube, and its related movies. There's a cube made of many baby cubes each with a unique trap/nothing. People have to use clues at the 6 exits of each baby room to try and navigate the whole cube. There is only 1 baby cube that allows exiting the cube. I wouldnt suggest the one shifting exit, but maybe more ways to exit.
Land said:Why not extend the dynamics to the dungeon that in turn inlfuences the entrances/near entrance areas.
I'm thinking about that movie, Cube, and its related movies. There's a cube made of many baby cubes each with a unique trap/nothing. People have to use clues at the 6 exits of each baby room to try and navigate the whole cube. There is only 1 baby cube that allows exiting the cube. I wouldnt suggest the one shifting exit, but maybe more ways to exit.
It's funny you mention the Cube movies. I happen to have all of them. They are a vey novel take on the shock-horror genre.
