Bazgrim said:Kalok said:Iksar said:Kalok said:The griefer argiument is getting old because it's brought up EVERY SINGLE TIME that someone says something that adds any sort of "realism" to the game.
It isn't realism though and it detracts from the gameplay unless they can make the system EXTREMELY tight. If there is player to player collision and I can't climb over, crawl under, squeeze between, or otherwise shove someone out of the way then I would say it is LESS realistic than having players pass through one another and assuming one of those events took place to get them on the other side.
It is realism. Try walking through another person sometime and tell me how it goes.
Iksar's point is that in the real world, you can just push people out of the way or squeeze through. If you can't do that in-game, it's not realistic, it's just frustrating. Even if people aren't griefing by doing it on purpose, it can be very annoying. And not in a rewarding way.
And I also said that with collisiion detection on, you COULD to pushing. Or did you miss that? It's obvious that Iksar did.
Iksar said:Kalok said:The griefer argiument is getting old because it's brought up EVERY SINGLE TIME that someone says something that adds any sort of "realism" to the game.
It isn't realism though and it detracts from the gameplay unless they can make the system EXTREMELY tight. If there is player to player collision and I can't climb over, crawl under, squeeze between, or otherwise shove someone out of the way then I would say it is LESS realistic than having players pass through one another and assuming one of those events took place to get them on the other side.
Player collision IS realism. A body can not walk through another body, being able to do so is totally cheesy!
So what I have highlighted in your post would indeed be the right way to do it, of that I will agree with you. I can't understand why people would request they throw the baby out with the bathwater.
And as for the shoving having the potential for greafing... yes it does. And as has been pointed out on the forums many times, on many differant topics.
IF anything can be used to Grief it will be used to Grief! the Solution to THAT problem is WoW. And I prefer not to play wow.
There IS a solution to the OP's problem of bottlenecks at zone lines, there are probablt dozens of them, it does not HAVE to be no player collision.
Pushing (players aren't fond of others taking control of their character, especially if they die from it) justs opens the door to more abuse for next to zero gain in terms of gameplay/enjoyment. Like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-rl3RPC_Mw
Again I ask what does player to player collision actually add to the game? "Realism" for the sake of itself is a poor argument.
If collision is in the game it could be fine if limited to PvP servers (where player to player makes the most sense), player to mob, and player to player only with those in your group/raid.
Iksar said:Pushing (players aren't fond of others taking control of their character, especially if they die from it) justs opens the door to more abuse for next to zero gain in terms of gameplay/enjoyment. Like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-rl3RPC_Mw
Yea, I covered that already.. this is your opinion, and this type problem has already been fixed in most every game out there. (that I have no intrist in playing)
"IF anything can be used to Grief it will be used to Grief! The Solution to THAT problem is WoW. And I prefer not to play wow."
As for your video... "crawl under" problem solved without making another cheezy game.
Iksar said:Again I ask what does player to player collision actually add to the game? "Realism" for the sake of itself is a poor argument.
You have been told at least 4 or 5 times. I'm not going to tell you again, and again,...
Iksar said:If collision is in the game it could be fine if limited to PvP servers (where player to player makes the most sense), player to mob, and player to player only with those in your group/raid.
This is your opinion, understood and your welcome too it, mine however is differant.
Iksar said:Pushing (players aren't fond of others taking control of their character, especially if they die from it) justs opens the door to more abuse for next to zero gain in terms of gameplay/enjoyment. Like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-rl3RPC_Mw
Again I ask what does player to player collision actually add to the game? "Realism" for the sake of itself is a poor argument.
If collision is in the game it could be fine if limited to PvP servers (where player to player makes the most sense), player to mob, and player to player only with those in your group/raid.
Say I "push" your afk toon from the vendor platform, canceling your vendors selling status to stop you from selling something lower then me. If ya dont;' have the mentality of a griefer, liek I do becausse I'm a bad bad boy, your ideas may be flawed in implementation. And don't get me started n if push was in game because with 10 accounts you can seal off a zonein and have the zone to yourself. See ya in game.
Zeem said:.not sure who your asking, but I have time so I'll respond. Since the option of "crawl" was introduced. I think that would require the hit box not extending all the way to the floor.... so if I was to SIT while at the merchant you would in theory pass right over me. (Not that I would be in competition with you to sell first... I don't compete with other players in an MMO)Iksar said:Pushing (players aren't fond of others taking control of their character, especially if they die from it) justs opens the door to more abuse for next to zero gain in terms of gameplay/enjoyment. Like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-rl3RPC_Mw
Again I ask what does player to player collision actually add to the game? "Realism" for the sake of itself is a poor argument.
If collision is in the game it could be fine if limited to PvP servers (where player to player makes the most sense), player to mob, and player to player only with those in your group/raid.
Say I "push" your afk toon from the vendor platform, canceling your vendors selling status to stop you from selling something lower then me. If ya dont;' have the mentality of a griefer, liek I do becausse I'm a bad bad boy, your ideas may be flawed in implementation. And don't get me started n if push was in game because with 10 accounts you can seal off a zonein and have the zone to yourself. See ya in game.
And since climb and crawl have been introduced as solutions, allowing players to go over and under other players... you need to kick that up to 30 accounts to seal off the zone... @ $15 each... if you want that zone for $450 a month. .. your welcome too it. I wouldn't think that will be a common problem though.
Zeem said:Iksar said:Pushing (players aren't fond of others taking control of their character, especially if they die from it) justs opens the door to more abuse for next to zero gain in terms of gameplay/enjoyment. Like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-rl3RPC_Mw
Again I ask what does player to player collision actually add to the game? "Realism" for the sake of itself is a poor argument.
If collision is in the game it could be fine if limited to PvP servers (where player to player makes the most sense), player to mob, and player to player only with those in your group/raid.
Say I "push" your afk toon from the vendor platform, canceling your vendors selling status to stop you from selling something lower then me. If ya dont;' have the mentality of a griefer, liek I do becausse I'm a bad bad boy, your ideas may be flawed in implementation. And don't get me started n if push was in game because with 10 accounts you can seal off a zonein and have the zone to yourself. See ya in game.
No... You can't "seal off the zone line" and prevent people from entering if collision dection on zone in is implemented.
All of you "anti-collision" people are under the, obviously, mistaken assumption that mechanics can't be put in the game to alleviate, or at least mitigate, these issues.
Zorkon said:Zeem said:.not sure who your asking, but I have time so I'll respond. Since the option of "crawl" was introduced. I think that would require the hit box not extending all the way to the floor.... so if I was to SIT while at the merchant you would in theory pass right over me. (Not that I would be in competition with you to sell first... I don't compete with other players in an MMO)Iksar said:Pushing (players aren't fond of others taking control of their character, especially if they die from it) justs opens the door to more abuse for next to zero gain in terms of gameplay/enjoyment. Like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-rl3RPC_Mw
Again I ask what does player to player collision actually add to the game? "Realism" for the sake of itself is a poor argument.
If collision is in the game it could be fine if limited to PvP servers (where player to player makes the most sense), player to mob, and player to player only with those in your group/raid.
Say I "push" your afk toon from the vendor platform, canceling your vendors selling status to stop you from selling something lower then me. If ya dont;' have the mentality of a griefer, liek I do becausse I'm a bad bad boy, your ideas may be flawed in implementation. And don't get me started n if push was in game because with 10 accounts you can seal off a zonein and have the zone to yourself. See ya in game.
And since climb and crawl have been introduced as solutions, allowing players to go over and under other players... you need to kick that up to 30 accounts to seal off the zone... @ $15 each... if you want that zone for $450 a month. .. your welcome too it. I wouldn't think that will be a common problem though.
depends on what drops in that zone and the prices for gold. :)
But now your saying crawl, I didnt comment about crawl I was talking about push. Dont change topics.
Kalok said:Zeem said:Iksar said:Pushing (players aren't fond of others taking control of their character, especially if they die from it) justs opens the door to more abuse for next to zero gain in terms of gameplay/enjoyment. Like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-rl3RPC_Mw
Again I ask what does player to player collision actually add to the game? "Realism" for the sake of itself is a poor argument.
If collision is in the game it could be fine if limited to PvP servers (where player to player makes the most sense), player to mob, and player to player only with those in your group/raid.
Say I "push" your afk toon from the vendor platform, canceling your vendors selling status to stop you from selling something lower then me. If ya dont;' have the mentality of a griefer, liek I do becausse I'm a bad bad boy, your ideas may be flawed in implementation. And don't get me started n if push was in game because with 10 accounts you can seal off a zonein and have the zone to yourself. See ya in game.
No... You can't "seal off the zone line" and prevent people from entering if collision dection on zone in is implemented.
All of you "anti-collision" people are under the, obviously, mistaken assumption that mechanics can't be put in the game to alleviate, or at least mitigate, these issues.
K man :) I've run with a guy whos ran a raid force. he moved 30+ character at once killing mobs in Sleepers tomb. but hey w/e I'm done on this thread. Tjinking something isn't possible is the flaw in modern IT security attacks and compromises.
Kalok said:No... You can't "seal off the zone line" and prevent people from entering if collision dection on zone in is implemented.
All of you "anti-collision" people are under the, obviously, mistaken assumption that mechanics can't be put in the game to alleviate, or at least mitigate, these issues.
Exactly! There is more than one way to skin a cat.
And since they seem unwilling to entertain any solution other than total elimination of player collision to stop zone bottlenecks, that tells me they are just against player collision for other reasons and using "griefing" as a scape goat.
Zorkon said:Kalok said:No... You can't "seal off the zone line" and prevent people from entering if collision dection on zone in is implemented.
All of you "anti-collision" people are under the, obviously, mistaken assumption that mechanics can't be put in the game to alleviate, or at least mitigate, these issues.
Exactly! There is more than one way to skin a cat.
And since they seem unwilling to entertain any solution other than total elimination of player collision to stop zone bottlenecks, that tells me they are just against player collision for other reasons and using "griefing" as a scape goat.
Yep. Everything that is remotely "realistic" or adds depth and diffiiculty to the game illicits an "Oh noes!! Griefers!!" response.
Zeem said:crawl was brought into this thread as one piece of the solution just as climb and push were... if I remember correctly it was in the same post.depends on what drops in that zone and the prices for gold. :)
But now your saying crawl, I didnt comment about crawl I was talking about push. Dont change topics.
When you have a 4 or 5 part solution you can't negate one and ignore the rest and think you made a point.
Kalok said:Zeem said:Kalok said:Zeem said:Iksar said:Pushing (players aren't fond of others taking control of their character, especially if they die from it) justs opens the door to more abuse for next to zero gain in terms of gameplay/enjoyment. Like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-rl3RPC_Mw
Again I ask what does player to player collision actually add to the game? "Realism" for the sake of itself is a poor argument.
If collision is in the game it could be fine if limited to PvP servers (where player to player makes the most sense), player to mob, and player to player only with those in your group/raid.
Say I "push" your afk toon from the vendor platform, canceling your vendors selling status to stop you from selling something lower then me. If ya dont;' have the mentality of a griefer, liek I do becausse I'm a bad bad boy, your ideas may be flawed in implementation. And don't get me started n if push was in game because with 10 accounts you can seal off a zonein and have the zone to yourself. See ya in game.
No... You can't "seal off the zone line" and prevent people from entering if collision dection on zone in is implemented.
All of you "anti-collision" people are under the, obviously, mistaken assumption that mechanics can't be put in the game to alleviate, or at least mitigate, these issues.
K man :) I've run with a guy whos ran a raid force. he moved 30+ character at once killing mobs in Sleepers tomb. but hey w/e I'm done on this thread. Tjinking something isn't possible is the flaw in modern IT security attacks and compromises.
Show me ONE TIME where I said "not possible". I said, "alleviate" and "mitigate". But then, I don't expect you to udnerstand the difference when you're on a pendantic kick.
I work in the InfoSec department of a large non-profit. Never and "not possible" are diry words, and I rarely use them.
You're worse than I am!
haha, jk, not a chance. *FLEXES*
Zeem said:Kalok said:Zeem said:Iksar said:Pushing (players aren't fond of others taking control of their character, especially if they die from it) justs opens the door to more abuse for next to zero gain in terms of gameplay/enjoyment. Like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-rl3RPC_Mw
Again I ask what does player to player collision actually add to the game? "Realism" for the sake of itself is a poor argument.
If collision is in the game it could be fine if limited to PvP servers (where player to player makes the most sense), player to mob, and player to player only with those in your group/raid.
Say I "push" your afk toon from the vendor platform, canceling your vendors selling status to stop you from selling something lower then me. If ya dont;' have the mentality of a griefer, liek I do becausse I'm a bad bad boy, your ideas may be flawed in implementation. And don't get me started n if push was in game because with 10 accounts you can seal off a zonein and have the zone to yourself. See ya in game.
No... You can't "seal off the zone line" and prevent people from entering if collision dection on zone in is implemented.
All of you "anti-collision" people are under the, obviously, mistaken assumption that mechanics can't be put in the game to alleviate, or at least mitigate, these issues.
K man :) I've run with a guy whos ran a raid force. he moved 30+ character at once killing mobs in Sleepers tomb. but hey w/e I'm done on this thread. Tjinking something isn't possible is the flaw in modern IT security attacks and compromises.
Pushing players is probably a bad idea. Someone earlier in this thread offered a simple solution to the zone line issue and we're all waving our e-sabers about while ignoring the easy answer.
Kalok said:Pushing someone out of your way isn't "taking over control of their character". Overexaggeration much??? Just because it is zero gain for you doesn't mean it's zero gain for anyone else. I know that this is going to be a shock to you, but the game isn't being made just for you.
Realism is a perfectly acceptable reason. "Oh noes!!! It might be used for griefing!!" isn't a good reason to not have it. *ANYTHING* can be used for griefing by jerks. That's just the way it is.
Forcing another player to move against their will is taking control over another player no matter how brief. Being killed by another player pushing you off a cliff, into a trap, or to a lower floor/area would not be a rich experience, especially when you have no recourse to stop the action. I never said nor imagined the game was being made just for me, a bit of a projection on your part I'd guess. I'm not anti all things that can be used to grief but some features/mechanics add very little gameplay compared to how big of a tool they can be for griefers/trolls and how big of a nightmare they can become for customer service. Trains are fine, trains where you can have someone get you killed because they blocked your path is not.
Realism isn't a good reason in and of itself, particularly for making gameplay decisions in a fantasy video game. It's more realistic if every armor drop and many weapons had to be taken to a crafter before they could be worn or used so they could be sized for your character, larger races having to pay more and/or give extra materials depending on what dropped the armors. It would be more realistic if players could only carry one or two bags total and if the weight they were carrying made them attack/cast slower and lose endurance faster. It would be more realistic if when you died anyone could loot your corpse.
Zorkon said:Yea, I covered that already.. this is your opinion, and this type problem has already been fixed in most every game out there. (that I have no intrist in playing)
"IF anything can be used to Grief it will be used to Grief! The Solution to THAT problem is WoW. And I prefer not to play wow."
As for your video... "crawl under" problem solved without making another cheezy game.
It's a nightmare of issues that come even if they added crawl, climb, and/or shove. Sure 1 player against another 1 player it might work out well enough, but what happens when there are a few players to a small grouping that are blocking the path? What happens when you try to crawl? Do you just "blink" to the other side of all of them, even if some are sitting or crawling themselves? What if the ceiling is too low in the dungeon? What if two people are blocking a doorway but you can't push one because there is nowhere to relocate their character to? If they are invisible do you just pass right through them?
There are tons of issues to deal with, each one like the above taking more away from this "realism" that keeps being mentioned. Then they also have to consider all these things in every design aspect; making massive banks and auction houses with tons of tellers/brokers, limited dungeon designs to get rid of any somewhat cramped dungeons or areas that might have a choke point, making sure there are multiple exits to a lot of more common areas/buildings. Seems like a lot of work just to allow players to body block others indiscriminately because it feels more real but doesn't add much beyond that.
The best way to eliminate zone line bottlenecks is to not have player to player collision, at least not for those outside your group. If there is player collision and players are spread out when zoning in based on if someone else is blocking a spot then you end up with either massive zone lines to accommodate that or you have some players getting stuck in walls of bodies with others dying because they couldn't zone their train out due to congestion.
The funny thing here is that both sides are fighting for immersion, one side (collision) wants more environmental immersion and the other (passthrough) wants more mechanical immersion, so no one can say immersion is not a valid reason to want something. If immersion makes the game more fun for you then how is it not valid, isn't fun the ultimate goal?
Environmental immersion is made up of things like the pretty graphics, the nice music, the great lore, etc. and without it we would be playing a game of circles fighting squares while fart noises play in the background. Collisions can be good here because they can give players the illusion of weight and resistance which help in feeling like you are in the game.
Mechanical immersion is made up of things like fluid gameplay, intuitive control schemes, challenging content, etc. and without it we would end up with a beautiful game that is unplayable. Collision can be bad here because they can potentially interrupt an otherwise fluid gameplay if you need to stop playing your game to yell at some ogre to move out the way for 10 minutes.
Both are important and vary in importance from person to person, so we should not say that immersion is not a valid reason, we should instead try to find a balance.
I personally prefer to have player collisions, tho it wont spoil the game for me if it is not implemented.
My personal suggestion is that instead of pushing players from their location, you can slowly push through them, so you would collide with them, but then if you kept on pushing you could phase through them as if squeezing thru, this way they cant really block your path and you cant really push them off a cliff. We still have the problem that if a group of 20 a-holes are crowding a ledge to block it off and you were to try and jump on you would still collide and fall. Not sure how that can be elegantly solved.
EDIT: Immersion is not the same as realism. It is not about making the game more like reality and more about making it easier for you to forget reality is there and focus on just the game, and it requires a good balance of both mechanical and environmental immersion.
Preechr said:GrumpyNPC said:...a game of circles fighting squares while fart noises play in the background
Coming this Fall on Netflix
*minor de-rail*
When I first started playing and from general chatting, I came to realize that some of the people behind the avatars were sophisticated uber computer design type people and my first exposure was hearing them speak of "mob"'s. In my mind, I only knew the label, i,e,, griffon, moss snake, Necromancer so I assumed when they said "mob" they meant something like "Man Or Beast" and so I started throwing that around. I was a bit chagrined when I was in a group of these sophisticated people who were now my in-game friends and a guest asked what it meant. Of course I replied first- wanting to show off my game maturity- and was laughingly corrected (in a good way) to its true meaning of "Moving Object Block" .
A game consisting of only moving object blocks would seem kind of surreal to me- even with the fart noises. heh.
Manouk said:Preechr said:GrumpyNPC said:...a game of circles fighting squares while fart noises play in the background
Coming this Fall on Netflix
*minor de-rail*
When I first started playing and from general chatting, I came to realize that some of the people behind the avatars were sophisticated uber computer design type people and my first exposure was hearing them speak of "mob"'s. In my mind, I only knew the label, i,e,, griffon, moss snake, Necromancer so I assumed when they said "mob" they meant something like "Man Or Beast" and so I started throwing that around. I was a bit chagrined when I was in a group of these sophisticated people who were now my in-game friends and a guest asked what it meant. Of course I replied first- wanting to show off my game maturity- and was laughingly corrected (in a good way) to its true meaning of "Moving Object Block" .
A game consisting of only moving object blocks would seem kind of surreal to me- even with the fart noises. heh.
Yep... Back in the day when MOBs were "invented", we called them "Mobiles". When I use the term MOB, though, I am typically referring to "mobiles" that are combatants, as opposed to the term NPC, which I use for non-combat encounters, even though they are "mobiles" as well.
Kalok said:Yep... Back in the day when MOBs were "invented", we called them "Mobiles". When I use the term MOB, though, I am typically referring to "mobiles" that are combatants, as opposed to the term NPC, which I use for non-combat encounters, even though they are "mobiles" as well.
This is what I mean when I use the term "mob". It comes from MUDs.
Kalok said:Manouk said:Preechr said:GrumpyNPC said:...a game of circles fighting squares while fart noises play in the background
Coming this Fall on Netflix
*minor de-rail*
When I first started playing and from general chatting, I came to realize that some of the people behind the avatars were sophisticated uber computer design type people and my first exposure was hearing them speak of "mob"'s. In my mind, I only knew the label, i,e,, griffon, moss snake, Necromancer so I assumed when they said "mob" they meant something like "Man Or Beast" and so I started throwing that around. I was a bit chagrined when I was in a group of these sophisticated people who were now my in-game friends and a guest asked what it meant. Of course I replied first- wanting to show off my game maturity- and was laughingly corrected (in a good way) to its true meaning of "Moving Object Block" .
A game consisting of only moving object blocks would seem kind of surreal to me- even with the fart noises. heh.
Yep... Back in the day when MOBs were "invented", we called them "Mobiles". When I use the term MOB, though, I am typically referring to "mobiles" that are combatants, as opposed to the term NPC, which I use for non-combat encounters, even though they are "mobiles" as well.
Yep, that's the way of it.