I remember playing an old MUD called Abysmal Realms with a friend years ago (like...1996 years ago - I'm not THAT old, mind you, I was rather young at the time... :p) Anyway, there was the utility spell "Recall" in that game, which would bring you back to the healer newbie room (or the healer room of one of the game's guilds if you had joined one of the 8/9 hardcoded guilds in the game). Of course, at higher levels, it had a greater chance to fail (it never did at low levels as a mechanic to aid newbies to the game, having a 100% success rate for below level 15 and then tapering off from there).
...however...
...there were some parts of the game that were not "safe" to go to. One area I only vaguely remember (this WAS 20 years ago, now), but was like a realm of Chaos or something. There were a few other deep dungeons, too. But the thing is, these areas, when you tried to cast the Recall spell, you would get the message that the gods had forsaken you (or something to that general effect), and the spell would fail, no matter the level. Effectively, no-recall areas. These areas DID generally have a "safe" room here or there - some sacred shrine or ancient monument of one of the gods through which their divine power allowed you to safely...get the hell out of there. But other than those few spots of sanctuary, the places were generally crazy, chaotic, easy to get lost in, and death traps. I was vaguely reminded of a similar feeling years later playing Final Fantasy 4 and the way the save points were described in that game (they were sacred circles where you could save and use tents, etc, that were safe from enemies due to their magics/divinity/etc - a feeling that was somewhat repeated in FF15's camp sites).
Now, here's the rub:
You NEVER get this feeling in MMOs. No matter the MMO, no matter where you are - dungeon, raid, or wild unknown - there is no place that isn't really "safe". At any time in WoW, for example, you can right click your Hearthstone, and within moments, you will be wisked back to the safety of whatever inn you bound to. The only downside is the opportunity cost of you having to walk all the way back to where you came from if you ever want to explore/get things from that area again. Famously (and hilariously), you could even hearth from PvP battlegrounds, ejecting you from the battleground match in the process...as the proverbial bubble-hearthing Paladins have been known to do from time to time (maybe that was fixed in more recent patches, I haven't heard of anyone trying it from a while).
This is great for Newbies, of course. A quick, easy escape to the arms of safety with low opportunity cost.
...but...this is PANTHEON.
I'm curious if there are parts of the game that WON'T let you escape so easily. That won't let you get away THAT easily. That will latch their tendrils of death and danger into your very soul and ground you to their plane unless and until you walk out or break out (or find some sanctuary of a sacred shrine that keeps monsters at bay).
...I'm going to guess not, since I haven't heard anyone talking about it, and this might be "too hardcore", even for Pantheon.
But...imagine the possibilities.
Granted, if such places exist, they SHOULD be rare, and SHOULD be places that a newbie won't easily wonder into. But for those experienced adventurers who are not faint of heart, such places existing...would be quite interesting, wouldn't you say? And the rewards for braving them and coming out alive...
Kind of like plane of fear in EQ1. You zone in ready to battle. you have your druid/wizard to evac you out if things go badly, except when that pesky imp teleports you away from the group right before the evac lands... the bugger.
I would be perfectly happy sans ports/hearth/bind point. But then I am looking at it from a bubble of not playing. I bet after a hard dungeon run I will change my mind. Especially in that after each play session, I like to bank items and sort my bags.
There is some irony to my thinking in that I was a bubble-hearth healadin in WoW (when you could) for those moments that your team entered "zerg" mode and started fighting in the center.
There were a lot of "not so safe zones"n eq1. But the rub in eq was if you died there you were there until you came back for your corpse. And unless you knew a kindly necro who would summon you or there wasa group with a nice cleric who would ress you, you had the nasty task to get your corpse. I do not know the systems in ff4 and the other game you mentioned but I am not sure that any other games had corpse retrieval as the only way to get your gear back.
If they put in such unsafe zonesthat you cannot port out or get out fairly easy if you get into trouble then you may be in for a long and painfull cr.
even in a big guild you may find it tough to gather enough people to help you retrieve youself if the zone is so big and dangerous that it took a long time to get in, and it is now repopulated .
The first time I went into Fear in eq1 we got wiped badly. Fear was new to us and we were very much underpowered for the zone. A uber guild called Fires OF Heaven came to our aid. They went in and cleared the area and gave us resses.. I know this happened to many groups. t was still a few hours before we got resses and the time was well worth the lesson.
I certainly hope protf has no zones where you cannot get your corpse without a 3-4 hour wait
Maybe a friendly corpse retriver in town with a limit of times oer week you can use him would be nice. But I do not see that happening in the game at all.
I agree in general with the OP.
If a dungeon has no ability to use recall or evac or teleport or whatever Pantheon calls those abilities in any form - no one can leave unless they manually fight back to the exit - there should either be an exit at the far end to be used after you kill the final boss (as in the leave instance command in most instanced dungeons in most games) or there should be a safe place after killing said boss where all teleportation abilities work again.
"Having killed the giant rabbit that had terrorized local farmers for decades its magical deadening of magical abilities fades and you can now use any transportation abilities." This would not be too hair raising even after a session of hare razing.
Having just gone back to EQ this past week (started last Saturday) to play on Agnarr it was a nice quality of life addition to not have to get my gear off my corpse. That said, I would be okay with being able to have the corpses pulls ala /corpsedrag if you could pull multiple corpses like the first iteration way back. Up to like 5 I think?
I know many would disagree with this - especially now that so many MMOs have made this a thing of the past. From my perspective death has very little penalty in modern MMOs. Even the 'res sickness' is a weak penalty. Yes I got a frustrated as anyone when the infamous UNDING took place in EQ but because of that and the corpse hassel there was a certain risk/reward consideration that went into every battle. Death should be significant. I mean YOU DIED. I know that the hardcore dead and done thing is a bit much in a MMO like Pantheon but it is popular games like D3. I played hardcore with several characters there when I played and had no shortage of getting groups. Those characters lives where never meant to span years though.
Clearly at lower levels this should be alleviated or mitigated to some extent, but as you progress your character the penalty should be significant and a constant consideration on the actions and decisions your character takes or makes.
This topic is certain to be heavily debated one, but IMO so many MMOs are soft. Things too tough for you, okay here - go back to your safe place and you can try again. You wanted to test your character against that deep red? Too much? Oh okay just reset to the inn - your decision is unconsequential.
No. No thank you. You bit off more than you can chew? Wrote that check your character can't cash. SUCK IT UP CUPCAKE YOURE GOING DOWN!! Lesson learned?
Let the flames arise!
Renathras said:I remember playing an old MUD called Abysmal Realms with a friend years ago (like...1996 years ago - I'm not THAT old, mind you, I was rather young at the time... :p) Anyway, there was the utility spell "Recall" in that game, which would bring you back to the healer newbie room (or the healer room of one of the game's guilds if you had joined one of the 8/9 hardcoded guilds in the game). Of course, at higher levels, it had a greater chance to fail (it never did at low levels as a mechanic to aid newbies to the game, having a 100% success rate for below level 15 and then tapering off from there).
...however...
...there were some parts of the game that were not "safe" to go to. One area I only vaguely remember (this WAS 20 years ago, now), but was like a realm of Chaos or something. There were a few other deep dungeons, too. But the thing is, these areas, when you tried to cast the Recall spell, you would get the message that the gods had forsaken you (or something to that general effect), and the spell would fail, no matter the level. Effectively, no-recall areas. These areas DID generally have a "safe" room here or there - some sacred shrine or ancient monument of one of the gods through which their divine power allowed you to safely...get the hell out of there. But other than those few spots of sanctuary, the places were generally crazy, chaotic, easy to get lost in, and death traps. I was vaguely reminded of a similar feeling years later playing Final Fantasy 4 and the way the save points were described in that game (they were sacred circles where you could save and use tents, etc, that were safe from enemies due to their magics/divinity/etc - a feeling that was somewhat repeated in FF15's camp sites).
Now, here's the rub:
You NEVER get this feeling in MMOs. No matter the MMO, no matter where you are - dungeon, raid, or wild unknown - there is no place that isn't really "safe". At any time in WoW, for example, you can right click your Hearthstone, and within moments, you will be wisked back to the safety of whatever inn you bound to. The only downside is the opportunity cost of you having to walk all the way back to where you came from if you ever want to explore/get things from that area again. Famously (and hilariously), you could even hearth from PvP battlegrounds, ejecting you from the battleground match in the process...as the proverbial bubble-hearthing Paladins have been known to do from time to time (maybe that was fixed in more recent patches, I haven't heard of anyone trying it from a while).
This is great for Newbies, of course. A quick, easy escape to the arms of safety with low opportunity cost.
...but...this is PANTHEON.
I'm curious if there are parts of the game that WON'T let you escape so easily. That won't let you get away THAT easily. That will latch their tendrils of death and danger into your very soul and ground you to their plane unless and until you walk out or break out (or find some sanctuary of a sacred shrine that keeps monsters at bay).
...I'm going to guess not, since I haven't heard anyone talking about it, and this might be "too hardcore", even for Pantheon.
But...imagine the possibilities.
Granted, if such places exist, they SHOULD be rare, and SHOULD be places that a newbie won't easily wonder into. But for those experienced adventurers who are not faint of heart, such places existing...would be quite interesting, wouldn't you say? And the rewards for braving them and coming out alive...
I feel ya. I played a MUD also that had scrolls fo recall and there were some areas where they coun't be used. On top of that if you were a Dwarf, dwarves had a innate magical resist and sometimes a dwarf would outright resist the scroll lol.
I liek EQ had some places like that for sure. Most of the classic dungeons like Guk and sol a-b were so cramped that if you got into trouble there was nowhere to run, someone also mentioned Plane of Fear. Plane of Air also you woun;t gate but had to jump off the side. I can defintaly see Pantheon bringing back those moments of fear. Even a enviroment in Pantheon where it is a silence area, silence from League I am using here, where you cant cast spells or use abilities, just straight melee lol.
That was life as a Melee in OG EQ. If you weren't lucky enough to have a druid or wizard with you. You either died or ran out.
I would like it very much if there were no recall skill. You fight your way into that dungeon, you better fight your way back out too.
In EQ you had wizards and druids with the evacuation spell, in case of a wipe.
Those evac spells didn't always work as expected, in other words there was a chance that it would fizzle by porting part of the group but not the whole group. I remember evacing my group in Mistmoore, we were in one of the bedrooms, my whole group reached safety...except me.
I was left to face the wrath of the agro mobs lol. Now this "could" have been a bug, or it could have been the odds that the spell would fizzle and fail. :)
That was what 17 years ago, and I still remember that. :) Memorable experiences in EQ came in all shapes and sizes, from making friends with people you helped, to adventure scenarios where you weren't certain of the end result. Hoping Pantheon provides memories as memorable as back in the day. :)
Cana
CanadinaXegony said:In EQ you had wizards and druids with the evacuation spell, in case of a wipe.
Those evac spells didn't always work as expected, in other words there was a chance that it would fizzle by porting part of the group but not the whole group. I remember evacing my group in Mistmoore, we were in one of the bedrooms, my whole group reached safety...except me.
I was left to face the wrath of the agro mobs lol. Now this "could" have been a bug, or it could have been the odds that the spell would fizzle and fail. :)
That was what 17 years ago, and I still remember that. :) Memorable experiences in EQ came in all shapes and sizes, from making friends with people you helped, to adventure scenarios where you weren't certain of the end result. Hoping Pantheon provides memories as memorable as back in the day. :)
Cana
Pretty sure this was by design. It was an awesome feature in my opinion. It was fairly rare, but when it happened it really caused an oh-**** moment. Although it's not always bad. It happened to my druid in the Hole once, so I disbanded my druid from the group, joined the other group that didn't have an evacer and evaced them out too. Worked out for the better just purely by chance.
This thread brings up a lot of old memories of EQ. Castle Mistmoore and the many crazy nights with friends trying to stay alive especially when our Warrior would pull for us, he liked to keep it challenging. The massive trains that happened in that zone meant you always had to be ready to run for the exit, hide, or die. As you read in previous posts you would have to corpse run and it could be inconvenient at times. I still thought that the reason it sticks out so well in my mind is because it was tough, not impossible, and one of the best times I have had in a game. If you don’t have a penalty, then you don’t have that fear gnawing on your insides when the guy who’s pulling got an extra group.
@ the OP,
If you want that sense of danger, just don't take a class in your group that can evac, simple as that. No need to penalize everyone else who likes that safety blanket. I am like you, I like that sense of danger, pushing your group to keep going further and faster always pulling more and more. Just one mob in camp? lazy and boring, send the puller out to get another.
I have put some thought into the "go home" type features. I would prefer it to be an out of game feature rather than in game. I don't want it used as a way for people to be gating out of dungeons and such. But if you haven't played your character in a while and want to log in at your home city I don't see that as a big deal.
I actually like the idea of extremely remote areas removing your get out of jail free card, or your ability to warp away from danger. This game is supposed to be mysterious,and it's greatest treasures should deter all but the bravest, and boldest adventurers from exploring the depths of dangerous areas. Doesn't have to be a full zone, but maybe hidden lairs within dungeons that may have warnings warning you of the danger of entering said area. It brings me back to a time when I was venturing through an extremely high level zone in order to complete a quest on another game, the regions were so remote and were full of extremely high level mobs that you couldn't use potions or abilities to get around...just had to be smart in your steps and understand the monsters movements.
I honestly had that fear in EQ in most zones as a warrior until I learned them and especially when I had a perma-group with a cleric who could resurrect most if not nearly all experience lost. Having an Evaccer also negated the fear, but not as much as having someone who could Res on hand. A bit off-topic from your OP, but I've discussed it in the past - I would like to see a reverse resurrection system to what is typically in most MMOs. Penalize lower levels less - 98% res at 10 to a 50% res at 50, etc. Have the sting of death exist at all levels while keeping people in the hook early by not being too punitive on death. I think creating an environment where there is always true "risk" will accomplish what you're seeking in your OP.
I still think Wolfshead Online summarizes my feelings on the death penalty the best which I think would create the atmosphere in an MMO that you're seeking:
http://www.wolfsheadonline.com/the-death-penalty-mechanic-and-loss-aversion-in-mmo-design/
Nuggie said:Kind of like plane of fear in EQ1. You zone in ready to battle. you have your druid/wizard to evac you out if things go badly, except when that pesky imp teleports you away from the group right before the evac lands... the bugger.
Best times in my life in EQ, even after all these years i still think the OLD fear was the best designed zone in the game. I had so much fun in it.
I just didnt like the SK death Touch system, it kinda broke when random names being called.