In EQ2 there was a system called Lore and Legend. If you were hunting skeletons long enough, you'd see them drop a femur, or a rib cage, or a skull and these items were studiable. Once you studied one of the items, you'd get a quest telling you, you need to study the other parts (all of which dropped from skeletons, and you'd also have to "understand the essence and mind" or something like that, which was an auto update to the quest at some random point thoughout your journey of skeleton killings.
Once you became a "master" at skeletons, i.e. killed enough to study the essence, and/or mind, and collected and studied all the body parts the quest required, you earned a skill call Master Strike. Master Strike was just another hotkey ability that was just another attack vs. that type of mob. This Lore and Legend was done for almost every type of sentient mob in the game. So you could use Master Strike against almost everything you fought as long as you completed the Lore and Legend of said mob. It was a neat concept, but poorly implemented.
I'd much rater see, if I mastered the physiology of a being, that every attack I did vs. that being did more damage. Not just some "other" ability I could use. So like if I did 3-5 damager vs. skeletons, after I leared to master them, my base damage went to 4-6. So everything I do, I'm doing slightly more damage.
I know this might be a moot point, and maybe VR has something like this already, but I bring it up, because it was just something else that was doable in this game if you didn't have time to do a lot. I don't always have time to sit for a grind session for 3 hours, but if I' in for 30 mins, kill 20 skellys in that time and complete the Lore and Legend on it, then it feels like I did something. And I'm not trying to say, everytime I log in, you need to make me feel accomplished. I don't care about that and I understand a grind game. But there are also easy ways, imo, to let people feel that sense of accomplishment by not doing damage to the core of the game or the end game.
I know I keep bring up stuff from EQ2, but I think it was a fun game that just had unfortunate timing. And I think little systems like this are what make a game feel like something you want to engage in, especially if you're not a high end raider.
EQ2 did a number of things right, and I had a lot of fun with it in its early days. Collection quests, lore and legend, and housing, to name a few.
I lean more towards the D&D version of this, where at a certain level you had the option to choose an attack feat that did more damage (or had higher atk chance?) against a particular type of mob. The potential to have that ability against ALL mob types always seemed a bit far fetched to me.
Being able to only pick one, or two, allowed for more specialization, not to mention it could add some fun RP aspects for those interested in RP.
Side note: maybe my memory is off (been a long time since I played EQ2), but I seem to remember in dungeon groups that it was kind of a pain in the a$$ when you always had that one guy in the group that wanted you to go every which way for the purpose of completing the Lore and Legend quest.
Tralyan said:Side note: maybe my memory is off (been a long time since I played EQ2), but I seem to remember in dungeon groups that it was kind of a pain in the a$$ when you always had that one guy in the group that wanted you to go every which way for the purpose of completing the Lore and Legend quest.
IDK, every time I ever grouped in EQ2, even if people were working on L&L's, it was more of a passivily work on quest rather than an active pursuit.
Another cool thing I remember, is after completing those L&L's you'd get a "appearance only" weapon to hang in your house, along with the full written Lore on the creature in a book you could read and place/display in your house.
Ah yeah good call. That was a fun and well-made mechanic. DDO also had a similar system called Monster Manual that would reward you for killing mass amounts of a certain creature type. For killing 10,000 wraiths, you'd get an awesome-looking cosmetic wraith pet that would follow you around. I'm not advocating for cosmetic pets in Pantheon, but in DDO it looked so cool, I tirelessly grinded for days just to get it and proudly showed it off in town as people walked by and stopped and asked me about it because it was unlike anything else you could get in the game at the time.
Anyway, whatever the reward, it's a good feeling to know that you have so much more experience against a particular type of mob than most people and have gained some unique item or knowledge to show for it.
I am all for Lore and Legend if they make the bonus damage universal and passive to that type of mob. The sceptical part of me wonders if this would be an artificial obstacle to raids, as in "We only take 15% bonus to Ghouls." type of thing.
Saying that I don't see myself raiding. I adopt a dry sarcasm when under pressure, apparently, according to my WoW guild. I plan to dive into RP (looking for an EU RP guild, that does not mind a drunken Bard). Hmmm, is there such a thing as a sober Bard. I ask all the hard questions 8)))
Edit : Am amazed there are not more comments on this topic.
A passive buff might be too strong. An ability, or augmenter that can be used on a 2-5 minute cooldown is plenty powerful enough to encourage unlocking it, but without it being so strong that people require it. If there was a 15% damage modifier that was passive, it would absolutely be a requirement if it could be used on any significant raid encounter.
Even if it was 5% I would not put it past a min/maxing elitist guild (am coming from WoW atm) to require it.
I just disliked all the extra buttons that occured in EQ2 (for example). If there is one game that needed a skill deflation it was EQ2, but that is another debate 8)
I like the passive idea. And 15% is high I think. 5-7% damage increase I think would be enough. Not something you'd think you'd have to have, but also a nice little reward for when it did happen.
Getting to the raid aspect, I've raided a lot in EQ2, and I know that some Raid bosses were the same race as the type of mob we earned Master Strike for. But that ability didn't work on the raid bosses. So there is a way to turn that off vs. some mobs, especially raid mobs and possibly easier to turn it off vs. raid bosses because those bosses aren't an assembly line mob like the others.
To me, passive makes a great deal of sense (if the ability is not OP ignore my initial 15% that was just an example, a bad example I grant). Would my Bard have to think about something he has done countless times or would it be a natural occurrence, especially if it was a passive through a song or buff? It does not need to be a Master Strike.
What is to say a Druid, Enchanter, or Bard did not learn a way to increase their buff/song against certain mobs?
I may be over thinking it. 8))
My take on legend and lore is in the "Difficulty of Mob indicators" thead here (page 3) - https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/1859/difficulty-of-mob-indicators/view/page/3
Short version: It should be a skill that you can develop, and lets you gain information about monsters in game, and not just a thing you collect and do for a neat reward :)
I think there are plenty more creative ways to give a passive reward to people who complete these than just a damage buff or a clicky. For example, in the DDO monster manual, some rewards for mastering a creature type allowed you see the mob's exact remaining and max HP on it's health bar. Otherwise the game would only ever show you percentages. And if you really wanted to come up with the exact number, you'd have to look back at your combat log and add up all the numbers. But mastering a race gave you a lot more easy knowledge about the creature's stats.
A tiny increase to damage might make sense, such as knowing about weak spots in the mob's armor that other chars might not know about because you have spent so much time fighting them. But with Pantheon, the possibilities are endless. Perhaps when mastering a creature type, you'd gain more insight about that mob's dispositions. These sorts of things are not OP, but are still nice little helpful perks. Realistically, it's probably better to have these sorts of goals/rewards not be something that you specifically set out to accomplish and grind out for days, but instead just be little bonuses for slaying that you have mostly already been doing anyway.
Nephele said:My take on legend and lore is in the "Difficulty of Mob indicators" thead here (page 3) - https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/1859/difficulty-of-mob-indicators/view/page/3
Short version: It should be a skill that you can develop, and lets you gain information about monsters in game, and not just a thing you collect and do for a neat reward :)
I am not a fan of having that kind of information being gated behind a feature like this. I could see someone becoming a "lore and legend" master vs skeletons prior to level 20, and then having that wisdom forever. Attack types, special abilities, resistances ... all of that stuff should be found organically by studying the combat logs of individual encounters. I would never want to know that much information about a mob prior to fighting it for the first time. Dispositions will hopefully have some sort of visual indicator or something textual in their name such as "Bully Kobold" "Craven Kobold" "Bloodthirsty Kobold." As far as their respawn cycle and day/night pattern, that's also something I would want to learn for each mob organically.
The EQ2 system worked great. I don't think most people did them for a neat reward ... the weapon we earned was a vanity house item ... just a fluffy bonus. It was cool to have and collect but most people worked on these "quests" to unlock the mastery strike and/or earn XP for completing the quest. Each mob-type that qualified had a chance to drop one of 5 L&L items. If you inspected one of them, it would consume the item, initiate the quest, and give you credit for that specific item. There were 8 updates total, 5 that were dropped, and 3 that were random updates that could trigger upon killing a corresponding mob. In addition to L&L, these same mobs usually had a separate language quest that could be worked on in a somewhat similar fashion.
I like the idea of there being some sort of progressive learning mechanic with mobs, but it shouldn't be tied into identifying their attacks/abilities/resistances/dispositions/respawn cycles. Maybe the power of the mastery strike could be increased based on how many mobs you kill of that type. You would still have the traditional "quest" to unlock the mastery strike, but after unlocking it, you could continue boosting it's effectiveness until you get to 100% efficiency or whatever. One major reason I wouldn't want to see this tied into a /con system is because not every mob in the game would qualify for a specific L&L set, in fact, if mob types are really diverse, most wouldn't. Also, some mobs are more rare than others and it could end up being a nightmare if everybody needs to camp the same 4 "air elementals" in order to be eligible to "learn" their toughness/level.
To summarize my thoughts here ... I want to be able to learn the same information that you proposed, but would go about it differently. I think each encounter should be learned the old-fashioned way. If you fight a skeleton boss and die to it, you'll go through your logs to see that it used ice comet ... but I never want to know what abilities a mob can use prior to engaging it, no matter how many similar mobs of that type I have killed earlier on. I think being able to gauge the level/toughness of a mob should be pretty accessible to all players if we're going to have a harsh death penalty, and since not all mobs will qualify to have an L&L quest, I don't think it makes sense to have the /con system tied into it.
Anyway, I'm sorry for playing devil's advocate here. I really apologize if I am coming off negative, I don't intend to. Like I said, I really like the idea of a progressive learning model but I don't think the information learned should ever replace the old fashioned way of learning that same info. Another idea I would suggest is making it so higher quality components could be harvested from mobs as you learn more about them. Maybe you can only get "skeleton skulls" if you have enough mastery with their L&L, or if they drop crafting components, maybe you have a higher chance of acquiring a +1 or +2 version.
+1 .. I like it if the presentation is unexpected and (if posibble) differs per mob race.
So the message is like a thought the character gains for something to persue. That could be a quest; but does not always need to be eleborate.
A character can just become knowledgeble about simpler mob types, or needs to study harder on the more advanced/harder/AI ones.
oneADseven said: Another idea I would suggest is making it so higher quality components could be harvested from mobs as you learn more about them. Maybe you can only get "skeleton skulls" if you have enough mastery with their L&L, or if they drop crafting components, maybe you have a higher chance of acquiring a +1 or +2 version.
I could back this. Could be a great way to integrate Crafters and Adventurers. Rarer, or Pristine crafting components can only be obtained from someone who has mastered that creature and knows how to kill them without ruining the pelt/peice thats needed. Those mobs could still drop raw or common items, but not the rare ones.
This could actually be a great way of leveling the playing field of the crafters always being their own provider. To be a good crafter it'll take too much time to become a master hunter.
oneADseven said:Anyway, I'm sorry for playing devil's advocate here. I really apologize if I am coming off negative, I don't intend to. Like I said, I really like the idea of a progressive learning model but I don't think the information learned should ever replace the old fashioned way of learning that same info. Another idea I would suggest is making it so higher quality components could be harvested from mobs as you learn more about them. Maybe you can only get "skeleton skulls" if you have enough mastery with their L&L, or if they drop crafting components, maybe you have a higher chance of acquiring a +1 or +2 version.
No worries sir, you're allowed to disagree with my crazy ideas - heck, I'd be concerned if you *didn't* disagree sometimes :P
I liked EQ2's legend and lore but after a while it didn't feel special anymore. Oh hey, another book. Ok let me go kill a few of them and get the bits I need. Dangit, that tail never drops, I'll just buy that one. Ok cool here's another thing for the weapon wall and another thing for my master strike. Yay.
What I *want* is for "lore" to be more personal and meaningful. I want it to be a journey you take through the life of your character, and not just something you do for a little bit when you're at level 15 and start fighting gnolls and then you've "mastered" it. It should be a lifelong learning kinda thing. This is why I proposed to link it with advanced enemy evaluation skills. It gives an incentive to keep leveling that lore up.
If we step back from the way other games have done it, and just think about the fiction - what is "lore?" It's in-depth, esoteric knowledge of people, places, or things that can be used to solve mysteries and help us on our adventures. So, keeping that in mind:
Lore (People/Factions): A knowledge of history, traditions, and culture. Lore in this area might help with diplomacy, negotiating during merchant transactions, or finding opportunities
Lore (Places): A knowledge of the local area including its history and what things can be found there. Lore in this area might help with travel time, finding hidden things, or spotting dangers.
Lore (Creatures/Monsters): A knowledge of the natural behavior and habitats of the creature or monster. Lore in this area might help with knowing strengths/weaknesses, tracking, or harvesting useful things from kills.
You can expand on this if you want, but I hope you see where my thought process is going, and why I presented it the way I did in the other thread. Regardless, what I want is for lore skills to be meaningful and not just a trophy or a bonus. EQ2's legend and lore skills were fun - but Pantheon's can be SO much bettter.
I apologize if I am coming off negative too. But i didn't like the idea of remakes from other games like EQ2 or other games.
Yes some mechanics were good during playing these games but i wanna see new stuff in PROTF.
You all are right if you want to have to do a lot of content inside the game.
I have a lot of hope that VR will surprise us with some new features and not give us a copy selection of good mechanics/features of different other games.
just my 2 cent
You're forgetting one of the cool parts of early EQ2 - you didn't start Lore and Legend by killing mobs of that type, you started it by finding a book or some other lore about the creatures. These were often deep inside a dungeon - like the evil eye one was a book deep in Runnyeye. That's probably what people remember being dragged around dungeons for - looking for those L&L starters.
I don't recall when they changed L&L to auto-drop from the mobs, but it got a lot easier to get the master strikes once they did!
ah ok forgott these part of L&L.
yoe are right sometime they were also hidden in some bookshelfes.
Kittik said:...Once you became a "master" at skeletons, i.e. killed enough to study the essence, and/or mind, and collected and studied all the body parts the quest required, you earned a skill call Master Strike. Master Strike was just another hotkey ability that was just another attack vs. that type of mob...
I love this concept - I think it makes sense that, after killing a particular mob a lot, you should get GOOD at killing that particular mob.
fazool said:I love this concept - I think it makes sense that, after killing a particular mob a lot, you should get GOOD at killing that particular mob.
Awesome, because thats what this whole thread is about. Just a different and hopefully better and more creative way of doing it and allow our characters to have something similar to a Master Strike ability.