While I was watching the Making of a City video on the Pantheon YouTube page, I noticed somethings that were off about Thronefast's design.
At this point, this city would be very difficult to defend.
The city wall has no machicolations. To fight against an army archers would have to lean well over the edge to kill somebody.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GYSaAV-f9Gk - an example of machicolation
https://youtu.be/kz_29h3_Npw?t=6m2s - Thronefast's outer wall.
The crenulations of the wall should extend the entire length of the wall with the low part being at waist level of whomever is guarding the city, and the higher part should be slightly taller than the average guardsman.
https://youtu.be/kz_29h3_Npw?t=5m18s You can see on further edges there are no crenulations.
The main city gate has no murder holes, the gate has no portcullis, and since it's technically three doors you only have to have break open the two tiny doors and you can stream warriors inside.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZwvoAdfxRY - Portcullis and Murder hole example.
https://youtu.be/kz_29h3_Npw?t=7m12s - Thronefast's main gate.
The towers do not have arrow slits/loops, these allow archers to easily aim out of the castle but it is difficult to shoot inside.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13xQxGk3-Vg - construction of an arrow loop
The purpose of a moat is to make it difficult or impossible to get close with seige tower or ladder to scale the wall. If you have land to stand on beside the wall, the moat is only a slight annoyance instead of a serious threat. It allows for sturdy ground.
https://youtu.be/kz_29h3_Npw current drop off to city
https://i.imgur.com/9xwyfD0.png - a correctly built moat.
The most important part to a cities defense is it's location. It should be difficult to get large amounts of people gathered together to target your city.
Thronefast from the 30 seconds I saw seemed to be on rolling hills with mountains in the back ground.
These are minor fixes in general that should probably be addressed. I am no expert at this, but these small things niggle at me.
I've got to agree with him... as we were outside I was wondering where wer all the archers going to stand? Why do they have those overhangs sticking out that would protect people trying to scale the wall.
I wrote it off as they consider just the massivenes ot the wall was all the defence they needed... but then those handy convenient little doors would be pretty easy to smash in.
Doesn't seem well defended to me.
I would love you guys in my D&D games. Always thinking like you're in a world with no magic and I don't have to hardly do anything to pull off some good DM tricks on you. Sure, the tower doesn't have arrow slits in it, but having arrow slits in it may be disadvantageous if those two towers are actually stone golems at rest that can animate themselves to defend the city. The moat looks like it is built just fine for defense. Especially if the bridge magically lifts from it and folds over the doorway.
Also, while there are many castles that run the water right up to the edge of the castle or tower, there are also plenty of examples of ones that don't. If an attacker can get siege equipment and climbing ladders across your moat to use what little ground they have available, then they likely don't have to worry about how much ground is available on the other side. Also, there are castles that had dry moats as well, ones that had no water in them, they were just giant ditches.
kelenin said:I would love you guys in my D&D games. Always thinking like you're in a world with no magic and I don't have to hardly do anything to pull off some good DM tricks on you. Sure, the tower doesn't have arrow slits in it, but having arrow slits in it may be disadvantageous if those two towers are actually stone golems at rest that can animate themselves to defend the city. The moat looks like it is built just fine for defense. Especially if the bridge magically lifts from it and folds over the doorway.
Also, while there are many castles that run the water right up to the edge of the castle or tower, there are also plenty of examples of ones that don't. If an attacker can get siege equipment and climbing ladders across your moat to use what little ground they have available, then they likely don't have to worry about how much ground is available on the other side. Also, there are castles that had dry moats as well, ones that had no water in them, they were just giant ditches.
Moats aside, you can't just wave off centuries of castle design "because magic." There has to be specific reasons as to why things weren't included.
I look at VR as the dungeon master in this case, in a classic game of D&D. The DM isn't going to give you a description of an area you're in and just start telling you exactly why everything was done the way it was. The assumption is made that (unless the DM says otherwise) a castle, town, or whatever was built to withstand anything that it is expected to go up against. The DM may have reasons for doing things the way he did (or in some cases doesn't), but he's not going to inform the characters unless the characters are knowledgeable and it's pertinent information.
Explaining to us players how Thronefast is defended isn't really necessary as a DM. Just the knowledge as players that it has survived as long as it has should be enough.
I think they mentioned that there was going to be two huge lions just insise the doors, in that case, those giant doors are to keep the lions IN. Maybe if you didnt have faction or treats for the lions, they would tear you apart if you strolled through the small doors.
Also I think that causeway is the only way in, everything else is surrounded by a lake so the kill zone is well aways for the archers to hit from the top.
With crack troops guarding the causeway anything that gets past the killzone would be taken care of by them.
IN the case of a zerg where they all pile up on the causeway....wait a second! maybe THAT's what that divot in the center is! not a drainage ditch but rather the two halves of a length-wise door that drops down from either side down into the Lake/moat!
A couple of things struck me as odd. Magic or DM secrets aside, fantasy genres should pay a tad more attention to castle design. I'm cool with departures from classic medieval castles, but there are basic features which existed with good reason. Why have crenellations in the wrong places? If you need them for defense, then put them in strategic positions. In some cases, the kinks in the design actually better serve the attack than the Thronefast defender.
At 17:45 you see the stairs that lead up to the inner wall straight in front of the main gate in the killway. Just below each landing on the stairs there is something that looks like a doorway, but it's hanging out off the side in a manner which doesn't seem to serve any purpose or contribute to the style significantly. If anything, you might want doors on the landings where you could martial troops from barracks that might be inside the walls, out to meet the enemy who may be trying to advance up the stairs.
I assume that there are large gates left and right of the killway which are not yet in the model. Pretty sure there's no planned portcullis as there's nothing above of scale to accomodate it when open. Without secondary gates, the killway is more in name than function and the area immediately outside the gate is far more deadly.
At 44:05 you get a great view of the top of the top of the stairs we saw at 17:45. The side facing into the city is crenellated whereas the side facing the killway is flat. Seems backwards. For a wall of this height you'd probably crenellate both sides, certainly the part most likely to face the enemy. Crenellating only the inner side gives outward facing defenders no protection and when the wall is taken, gives the attackers fairly secure vantage points from which to reign terror on the city below.
However, I'm willing to suspend disbelief if the devs don't talk about the defensive nature of Thronefast in their next video. At this point Thronefast is more of a Disney castle than a defensible fortress. Talking about defensive design only serves to draw unnecessary attention to issues that aren't quite up to snuff for the siege nerds.
Fulton said:Is thronefast a castle? Or is it just a city with walls for grandeur and maybe protection from simple wildlife or the occasional wandering troll?
I was thinking something like this. As an example, Helm's Deep in The Lord of The Rings (the movie and books, not the game) had an outer wall that was very similar to Thronefast except it was missing the moat.
Patience guys they are still building it...not finished, work in progress, matter of fact once you get to testing, you'll probably see more changes. The game has changed since the prior livestream.
Just remember anything you see prior to beta (or even in beta from time to time) is still subject to change. When testing, don't get attached to your characters or anything else you've been doing ingame. Wipes will happen. Wipes mean things go poof. Testing goes like this: Pre-alpha, alpha, beta.
Cana
CanadinaXegony said:Patience guys they are still building it...not finished, work in progress, matter of fact once you get to testing, you'll probably see more changes. The game has changed since the prior livestream.
Just remember anything you see prior to beta (or even in beta from time to time) is still subject to change. When testing, don't get attached to your characters or anything else you've been doing ingame. Wipes will happen. Wipes mean things go poof. Testing goes like this: Pre-alpha, alpha, beta.
Cana
It's not about patience, it's about pointing out where changes could be made while in process. To me that makes a LOT more sense than waiting until they have a finished product.
For example if I'm heading from the east coast of the US to the west coast.... I would REALLY like somebody to point out that I had taken a wrong turn as I crossed into Mexico, rather than to find out when I arrived in Guatemala.
Zorkon said:CanadinaXegony said:Patience guys they are still building it...not finished, work in progress, matter of fact once you get to testing, you'll probably see more changes. The game has changed since the prior livestream.
Just remember anything you see prior to beta (or even in beta from time to time) is still subject to change. When testing, don't get attached to your characters or anything else you've been doing ingame. Wipes will happen. Wipes mean things go poof. Testing goes like this: Pre-alpha, alpha, beta.
Cana
It's not about patience, it's about pointing out where changes could be made while in process. To me that makes a LOT more sense than waiting until they have a finished product.
For example if I'm heading from the east coast of the US to the west coast.... I would REALLY like somebody to point out that I had taken a wrong turn as I crossed into Mexico, rather than to find out when I arrived in Guatemala.
They're gonna get LOTS of our feedback once they let us in. But we have to see the game ..be in the game, to give the right feedback, and understand where the Devs are going with this.
I don't think anyone is being overly critical or suggesting that the model is in a final state. If someone shows you their plan for a new car and it's missing an engine, but want to talk about performance, the lack of said engine becomes somewhat of an elephant on the table.
The VR team started the discussion about the defensive nature of Thronefast (whether you want to call it a walled city, castle or whatever) so they should expect feedback on that very subject. There are elements of the design which anyone with a Ph.D in defensive castle design is going to take offense to.
Ya, I know that was a horrible pun, but let's not treat anything as so precious that it can't be discussed openly in the forum without chastising folks for pointing something out. There are SOOO many badly designed castles/fortifications in video games.
Fulton said:Is thronefast a castle? Or is it just a city with walls for grandeur and maybe protection from simple wildlife or the occasional wandering troll?
This is a good point. Depending on the timeline of the lore, and where Thronefast is situated in relation to the geography of the world and the geo-political climate, it may not NEED to be a fortress.
I think back to a book I just read, The Farseer Trilogy, where the protagonist grew up in Buckeep Castle, a fortress at the mouth of the river as it spilled into the sea. It was built completely for defense, and had a very martial aspect to it. It protected the inlands, and the trade routes down the river. Later in the books, the protagonist found himself inland and coming up Tradeford Castle, a fortress in the middle of the kingdom that had no need to be a defensable outpost fom hordes of enemies. The city guards were plenty to protect it from the random outlaw band or occasional city scuffles.
I guess my question is, for those who are more in touch with the Lore of Terminus, does Thronefast NEED to be a defensible fortress? Is the political climate such that Thronefast is always facing imminent dangers in the form of standing armies and conquest? Why was it built, what was its purpose, and where, in relation to the rest of the world?
Genuine questions.
Celandor said:I don't think anyone is being overly critical or suggesting that the model is in a final state. If someone shows you their plan for a new car and it's missing an engine, but want to talk about performance, the lack of said engine becomes somewhat of an elephant on the table.
The VR team started the discussion about the defensive nature of Thronefast (whether you want to call it a walled city, castle or whatever) so they should expect feedback on that very subject. There are elements of the design which anyone with a Ph.D in defensive castle design is going to take offense to.
Ya, I know that was a horrible pun, but let's not treat anything as so precious that it can't be discussed openly in the forum without chastising folks for pointing something out. There are SOOO many badly designed castles/fortifications in video games.
No chastising in my intent, just making sure we all are aware of what point in production/building we are at. From what I saw, there seemed to be still alot of concept building...those doors we saw are probably subject to change. Long as nobody thinks we are looking at a finished product, that's my only concern. And even though we are providing feedback, the Devs do have targets, goals that they are headed toward as part of their grand scheme. We can have a wish list, but that's no guarantee it will be implemented as per that wish list. As I said before, we'll get a better idea once ingame and can give some educated feedback on systems etc according to how the game will be as a finished product with input from the Dev team. :) Also wanted to add that some of these elements people are discussing...would probably serve well for a pvp ruleset server. Ahh the good old days of Dark Age of Camelot and defending keeps. :)
Cana
Tralyan said:Fulton said:Is thronefast a castle? Or is it just a city with walls for grandeur and maybe protection from simple wildlife or the occasional wandering troll?
This is a good point. Depending on the timeline of the lore, and where Thronefast is situated in relation to the geography of the world and the geo-political climate, it may not NEED to be a fortress.
"Welcome to Thronefast, the Friendship City where you will be welcomed -- after you cross our expansive moat, walk past our walls teeming with archers, enter the massive gate, pass our stone guardian beasts, exit the killway and pass the defensive army we are training on your left... "
Nope, doesn't sound like a fortress to me.
:-)
Celandor said:"Welcome to Thronefast, the Friendship City where you will be welcomed -- after you cross our expansive moat, walk past our walls teeming with archers, enter the massive gate, pass our stone guardian beasts, exit the killway and pass the defensive army we are training on your left... "
Nope, doesn't sound like a fortress to me.
:-)
OMG, you just described my morning commute...
Celandor said:Tralyan said:Fulton said:Is thronefast a castle? Or is it just a city with walls for grandeur and maybe protection from simple wildlife or the occasional wandering troll?
This is a good point. Depending on the timeline of the lore, and where Thronefast is situated in relation to the geography of the world and the geo-political climate, it may not NEED to be a fortress.
"Welcome to Thronefast, the Friendship City where you will be welcomed -- after you cross our expansive moat, walk past our walls teeming with archers, enter the massive gate, pass our stone guardian beasts, exit the killway and pass the defensive army we are training on your left... "
Nope, doesn't sound like a fortress to me.
:-)
Ha. Touche. I concede.
sdcord said:After seeing all of the past streams and watching this most recent one, I have to be honest, I'm concerned with the art direction of this game. I'm not a fan of Jared's art style. :(
So far to me, the art show a lot of detail and variety in design. I generally don't typically enjoy human architecture in games, probably due to its usually what closely resembles reality, either current or in the past (medievil), but the overall quality and thought into Thronefast looks impressive to me. The Halfling concept art even more so.
It would help to know more specifically what you don't like though.
sdcord said:After seeing all of the past streams and watching this most recent one, I have to be honest, I'm concerned with the art direction of this game. I'm not a fan of Jared's art style. :(
What of it do you not like? Darkness, fairytaleness, overly expansive, not lifelike enough? Throw us a bone here.
I've only seen a couple of his, umm for lack of a better word, civilizations. And it's been the ToRM (Tower of the Reckless Mage) and Thornefast. We really haven't seen him diversified in his creativity yet. Once we get to see Wilds End proper or the lands of the other civlizations, they could be vastly different.
Although I do think Thornefast is a little too large and spacious inside, I liked the look of it. Some life justs needs added and hopfully, when complete it doesn't have that empty overly vast feel that I got from the stream video.
Kittik said:sdcord said:After seeing all of the past streams and watching this most recent one, I have to be honest, I'm concerned with the art direction of this game. I'm not a fan of Jared's art style. :(
What of it do you not like? Darkness, fairytaleness, overly expansive, not lifelike enough? Throw us a bone here.
I've only seen a couple of his, umm for lack of a better word, civilizations. And it's been the ToRM (Tower of the Reckless Mage) and Thornefast. We really haven't seen him diversified in his creativity yet. Once we get to see Wilds End proper or the lands of the other civlizations, they could be vastly different.
Although I do think Thornefast is a little too large and spacious inside, I liked the look of it. Some life justs needs added and hopfully, when complete it doesn't have that empty overly vast feel that I got from the stream video.
I agree with Kittik. We've mostly just seen human locations, which IMO, in most games tend to be massive and grand but lack real uniqueness and distinctive racial attributes. But that said, I think what we have seen has been awesome and, again IMO, the lighting in a game can make or break most anything, and the lighting I've seen in Pantheon the last couple streams has been absolutely awesome. Not to mention the other minor details that make the world seem alive (IE: water, grass, shadows)
If they get weather, fog, rain, snow, right, man that would be something, and by right I mean, not every rain or snow is a torrential downpour, and not all fog is thick as pea soup.
CanadinaXegony said: Patience guys they are still building it...not finished, work in progress, matter of fact once you get to testing, you'll probably see more changes. The game has changed since the prior livestream.Just remember anything you see prior to beta (or even in beta from time to time) is still subject to change. When testing, don't get attached to your characters or anything else you've been doing ingame. Wipes will happen. Wipes mean things go poof. Testing goes like this: Pre-alpha, alpha, beta. ...
There's changes due to adding content, then there's changes due to shifting design goals. The first type is normal. The second type can kill a project if not kept in check.
Given the historical examples of the past 20 years, it is exceedingly rare to see things like cities re-built entirely, pre-launch. As you can hear in the most recent "Making of a city" video, the creative, artistic, and work/task/job implementation process is very well defined.
My point? This is it. This is what Thronefast is going to be, right through to launch. Doesn't mean it can't or won't change, post-launch. EQ1 re-did Freeport, for example, many many years later. But as long as it doesn't crash the client, crash the server, lag either to below 30fps, or cause some other critical bug? It's fine. It's done, move on to the next task.
If Visionary Realms had the manpower or queue depth in their tasks to take feedback like this and make massive, significant, tangible changes to things like their city being too large? The game would have been done long ago. If they try to make those adjustments now, the game will run out of money to pay people long before Thronefast is finished, to say nothing of the other 8 starting cities, and actual adventure areas. Re-doing massive areas like this is, and I hate to put it this way, a waste of effort, with respect to the pre-launch tasks that need to be done. Layout, first pass, polish pass, done.
There is a finite amount of time, and they have to launch eventually.
As far as wipes go, by the time they're in pre-alpha, alpha, and beta, everything not "nailed down", that is, all mobile object data, quest data, everything in the database ( unrelated to world geometry ) will be and is always volatile. The city walls don't fall into that category. They're not destructible in the traditional sense, in this game.
It still seems to me,. having just watched the video again, that Thronefast seems more like a walled city than it does a castle "proper". Given that interpretation, not having certain martial details, like archer ports and what-not isn't really a "missing item".
Edited to add....
Here is an example of what I am talking about.
https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/bNKozT015b_rxQd6yVLHTBZLwdw=/0x0:5540x3668/1200x800/filters:focal(2327x1391:3213x2277)/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_image/image/51492085/shutterstock_41678254.0.jpg
