@Nephele - I think that's moving in an interesting direction for sure. The dialog options still seem a little fake and leading to me, but like I said I really dislike the obtuse typed responses that sometimes become a real bottleneck to moving forward. Typing also kind of removes the perception system from the equation, and I'd like to see a way to work that in.
1. There are a 'few' perception threads about:
.... perhaps some relate to your question...
General Focus Perception Threads:
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/5882/perception
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/3580/question-about-perception
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/3921/perception-question
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/5485/another-perception-thoughts
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/6880/the-perception-system
Class Focused Perception Threads:
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/3382/bards-and-the-perception-system
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/3482/perception-and-real-tracking-for-rangers
Skill Focused Perception Threads:
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/5891/using-the-perception-system-while-crafting
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/3745/perception-brainstorm-melee
Fanfiction Perception Threads:
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/4108/perception-in-a-blade-of-grass
Quest Focused Perception Threads:
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/5796/quest-talk
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/4682/quest-item-s
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/5883/quest-customization
2. These are development Forums:
The whole point of these forums is to have the opportunity to discuss areas/mechanics that may be in the game, and to do so in a reasoned, helpful manner. Helpful to the DEVs that is. From their point of view, the best they can hope for is a single thread per subject, discussing a mechanic or point of interest. They can then sift through the reasoned arguments for and against, looking at suggestions and innovations that may offer a better solution than the one they currently invisage.
Thus, I am afraid I cannot subscribe to having to settle for picking one of the two options given. It seems to be a closed question, limiting discussion and removing hope for innovation. Thus I have taken upon myself the liberty of re-writing your original post (at least in my mind):
QUESTION:
"EQ, et al, used MUD/RPG-style text parsing, while modern MMOs use 'click-forwards without reading' quest progression. What version of these, if any, is best for Pantheon?
Which best builds immersion, enhances socialization and adds to game play?
What cost would this choice have to fun/quality-of-life for players?"
ANSWER: ... well an answer
There is no 'either or' choice here. These two ends of the spectrum are not in a vacuum.
Consider a 'smart' perception method: smart in the sense that the NPC knows what parts you have accomplished. When you go to an NPC it becomes a matter, not of choosing the right 'word' or 'option' from a list, but in proving to the NPC that you have done the research, talked to whomever he wanted etc... The game intrinsically knows if you have and thus you may be allowed to pick an option saying "tell him what was written on the gravestone" without having to spell it out ... he will know if you know.
I.e. performing the portions of a quest needed acts as a queue for the NPC that you have done it. Looking it up in 'Wiki-quests' may tell you where to look and who to talk to ... but you will definitely have to go and do that since merely giving the correct answer to the NPC will get you nowhere. He knows you are fibbing!
I imagine some variation of the text based, along side 'smarter' NPCs would be a workable solution. Not for all quests, to be sure. However, I can answer as to what removes immersion and care for the quests - making the stories unimportant as you repeatedly click 'next' until the quest tracker updates. So I would hope for something better than that, at the very least.
Evoras, has to run and get dinner!
Demostorm said:It's not really the clicking on the words, its that those words will be in a pop up which is exactly the same as WOW's quest markers, cept they only show up with high perception.
Guess we can test it and see how fun or not fun it is seeing quest markers.
Really looking forward to the Perception skill..and working for the title that goes with it. Now if we could only persuade (hmmm that could be a skill too) VR to give us Diplomacy (ala Vanguard) :)
Cana
Feyshtey said:I'm not looking forward to another game that has glowing ! everywhere, or with popups hitting me in the face as I explore. I like to find things rather than have them hit me with an air horn notification if I'm in proximity.
That being said, I am not a fan of:
/say "What book?"
/say "What big book?"
/say "What black book?"
/say "What big black book?"
/say "What big black iron-bound book?"
/say "What book of secrets?"
/say "What big black book secrets?"Joe says, "Ask about the Tome of Elemental Squirrels."
/say "WTF?"
Joe says, "Seriously. It works."
/say "What Tome of Elemental Squirrels?"
Elementalist Jiggers says, "I'm glad you asked Feyshtey...."
*Bangs head on keyboard.*
Hahaha that's hilalrious Feyshtey :D
Nephele said:How is this for a compromise solution?
- No floaty !s to tell you that an NPC is a quest giver, etc.
- When you interact with an NPC you get a dialog window that tells you what the NPC says
- In the dialog window are "responses" that you can choose from. Depending on your class/race/faction/perception/etc, you may get *additional* responses to choose from.
- Some of those responses may lead to more information or a quest. Others may end the conversation.
- For the sake of realism, if you choose a bad response, you might take a minor faction hit, and have to wait for the NPC to "cool down" for a few minutes before you try the conversation again.
Would that be immersive enough for most of us, in that we still have to navigate through the conversations to find the quests? Presumably, NPC dialog could be written in such a way that it wouldn't be super obvious in all cases.
Too much? Not enough? Shut up Nephele, that'll never work? :)
That could work, as long as the pop ups dont happen all the time when your walking around town. I am a big fan of very few quests.. but really engaging ones.. Quality over quantity.
Demostorm said:That could work, as long as the pop ups dont happen all the time when your walking around town. I am a big fan of very few quests.. but really engaging ones.. Quality over quantity.
I absolutely agree with you on quantity/quality of quests. That said, I don't feel like having a quest is a prerequisite for NPC dialog either! What I mean by that is - every NPC should have something to say. Maybe it's super relevant. Maybe it's mundane. Maybe it's commenting about the weather. But you never know till you talk to them... and you won't find the quests, unless you spend the time to talk to the NPCs :) Besides, that NPC complaining about the weather? Maybe if you've accomplished enough, she might tell you how she's worried about her brother, who's a guard, posted out in the wilderness, and who hasn't written recently.... but she'd only do that if she knew you were someone people trusted. Just sayin' :)
dorotea said:Back in the day many games had typing - with crude programs that recognized a small number of words and tried to figure out what you might be saying to the NPC.
I see no great value to standing in front of a NPC trying desperately to figure out what word he or she is looking for in order to give you information or a quest.
I note that such a system would be particularly difficult for palyers for whom English isn't their primary language - and most major MMOs have people from a variety of countries playing these days.
Well I think part of it has to be in making it obvious enough to a player on what to say, but also hiding it enough to make it interesting.
For example take the tome conversation from a different angle. What if the name of that tome was found from another NPC. Maybe as a player you raided a lair and found a notebook. That notebook you took to a NPC who after reading it took note that the occupants of the lair were looking for something refrenced in a Tome of Elemental Squirrels. The NPC says that joe has the tome of elemental squirrels and you should ask him for it.
For me at this point the question you ask joe should be obvious.
As for what is gained from typing text. I would say three things, no click boxes mean you have to remember why you were talking to the NPC. joe shouldn't prompt you to ask about the tome the npc should of. It also means you have to pay attention and read chats with NPCs. Maybe players will actually think about the questline, understand why they are doing the quest line rather than this quest gives me EXP or an item so I want to complete it and it could potentially give them more enjoyment out of the quest. The third is immersion, Very few chat selection lists will actually talk the way I talk. I want my character to talk the way I talk not just the way the writer wanted it said. Let the writers and developers control the NPCs, I want to control my own PC including what he says.
You can easily put a "[]" around the [word] you want someone to say to make it easy for players to recognize what the NPC wants from you.
Typing text does bring back some good memories as well as some that are less good. It also goes well with having the NPC treat you very differently depending on your past history in the game, attributes etc. If different attributes such as IQ and Wisdom not just perception affect conversation paths it might be better not to have a limited set of very overt dialog options. Ditto for alignment - not just what you did while in Sally's village but if you are generally evil and Sally is not a very nice person perhaps the two of you will hit ot off better. or at least understand each other better.
Going to what someone else said above - perhaps the number of quests is relevant. If there are 20 quests to be had in the village it not only is a real pain for us to keep track of what to type it is a real burden on the developers to add that complexity. If the game has a small number of quests compared to what we are used to it makes a lot more sense to make them richer and more complex.
Nephretiti said:Does anyone from EQ remembering asking for "Phat lewtz"? I think it was in Sleeper's... I don't recall!
Yeah, you went into PoG and asked Prince Thirneg for phat lewtz. See, when you went into Plane of Mischief and made the poor choice to hail Lithiniath, a unicorn corrupted into madness by Bristlebane, he'd tell you about Prince Thirneg's phat lewtz and that you should go ask about it. If you made the poor decision to follow Lithiniath's advice, you'd find yourself instantly DTed by the prince...
Mentira said: ...I’m hoping it will be a message that pops up stating “You feel eyes upon you” , or you hear someone crying nearby and are required to look around until you find them. ...
You are describing their perception system right there which was briefly demonstrated (somewhat) on an earlier stream.
Nephele said:Demostorm said:That could work, as long as the pop ups dont happen all the time when your walking around town. I am a big fan of very few quests.. but really engaging ones.. Quality over quantity.
I absolutely agree with you on quantity/quality of quests. That said, I don't feel like having a quest is a prerequisite for NPC dialog either! What I mean by that is - every NPC should have something to say. Maybe it's super relevant. Maybe it's mundane. Maybe it's commenting about the weather. But you never know till you talk to them... and you won't find the quests, unless you spend the time to talk to the NPCs :) Besides, that NPC complaining about the weather? Maybe if you've accomplished enough, she might tell you how she's worried about her brother, who's a guard, posted out in the wilderness, and who hasn't written recently.... but she'd only do that if she knew you were someone people trusted. Just sayin' :)
Yeah could tie into faction..first time you talk to the npc..nothing happens. Go do some good deeds for the town or neighbourhood, come back ..oh hey they're talking to me now. (I'll be checking out every npc I meet, maybe there's a rare hidden task ...that you only get if you are allied with that town or npc)
Cana
hackerssuck said:I remember trying to talk to an npc in EQ, but I forgot to open the chat window text line, so instead I attacked. Ouch. That is a memory I'll never forget.
Haha or attack your trainer, that was always a good one. :D (taught me to pay better attention lol)