Competition for resources is a tried and true form of competition in an MMO. Whether it's locking down contested bosses, cornering a niche market in the economy, or hustling and bustling for harvest nodes ... I have always enjoyed the idea of competition in my MMO's. At the same time, there are plenty of other players who don't particularly care for competition. Things tend to get extreme when there are only a limited supply of things to compete for and it ultimately leads to player congestion around the areas where this opportunity for competition exists.
I think it would be great if there were other forms of competition that could pop up in the world. Fishing tournaments, arena matches (both PVE and PVP), card games (FF8 style) all come to mind. What kind of healthy competition would you like to see in an MMO? Specifically, any type of competition that isn't based on achieving "server first" for something. Poker tournaments also come to mind ... the idea isn't necessarily to race for something, but instead it's a battle of patience and wit where the goal is to be the last man/woman (or team) standing.
*Edited to add last man/woman (or team) standing.
Maybe even the last *woman* standing.
I am not big on competition for mobs I much prefer to cooperate. I know its a form of making things too easy but I actually like the development of shared credit when multiple people hurt a mob required for a quest. Fishing tournaments, naked races to a difficult location to get too, etc - things where you don't need to win to get levels and resources are all good ideas though.
I think having a coliseum would be really cool. You have to pay an entry fee of some sort in order to participate, and upon entering, you are locked inside of an arena. Players would be able to spectate from outside of it. It would be a battle of endurance ... every time you kill a mob, you get a small break to prepare for the next fight. The goal would be to see how many mobs you can kill before ultimately meeting your demise. Another idea would be to spawn waves on a timer ... no scheduled breaks. Mobs continue to spawn regardless of whether or not you completed the prior wave.
The question is, would having these other forms of competition be attractive enough to the ultra competitive gamers to pull them away from competing for world resources? Bragging rights only go so far ... I think if there was a tangible reward (maybe weekly or monthly) that is comparable to what could be obtained as a regular world resource, it might be possible. This could also be an outlet for people who don't have the flexibility to log on for 2 AM raids. The coliseum would run all day/night ... everybody has an equal chance to participate, assuming they can afford the entry fees.
Could we ever get to the point where e-sports could make their way into an MMO? I feel the easiest way would be through PVP. I think a MOBA-style draft setting would be really cool. Each team would have 12-15 players they could draw from and take turns drafting their team. Do you bring the warrior in first, or the cleric? It allows for some pre-combat strategy in regards to countering roles/compositions. Maybe there are a variety of arena settings where certain classes have advantages ... like water walking, levitate, contol mind, etc.
PvP is the ultimate competition. Imo, they should hold PvP event servers.
1) Open a new server and allow people to transfer a copy of their characters.
2) Enforce a rulset:
2a) No critical hits, critical heals, etc. Whatever balance changes the normal PvP server has would be fine.
3) Enforce the rules/win conditions:
3a) Get 100, 500, or 1000 kills in the 7 days the server is open.
3b) Rewards based on kills earned.
I'd love to see quarterly or semiannual class Best of the Best tournaments. I'd also love to see some group gauntlet type arena tournaments, something where mobs spawn one after the other giving the players no downtime to rest to see what group can get the furthest before wiping. The ultimate test of resource management and resource communication, a tactician's tournament.
Iksar said:I'd love to see quarterly or semiannual class Best of the Best tournaments. I'd also love to see some group gauntlet type arena tournaments, something where mobs spawn one after the other giving the players no downtime to rest to see what group can get the furthest before wiping. The ultimate test of resource management and resource communication, a tactician's tournament.
Would love to see this also. It would be even better if the gauntlet tournament rotated every month or two just to spice things up. I'm sure the devs could have a lot of fun making something like this.
In EQ1 there was the 'The Arena' zone off of Lake Rathetear where special area special effects were in place; like the only place you could get killed by another player in the PvE world.
Though I do not now how popular it was in earlyt years, but it was very empty and remote.
Rydan said:In EQ1 there was the 'The Arena' zone off of Lake Rathetear where special area special effects were in place; like the only place you could get killed by another player in the PvE world.
Though I do not now how popular it was in earlyt years, but it was very empty and remote.
There was an Arena in Freeport if I remember too. Those used to be fun for a "change of pace" in a PvE world.
They've talked about ruleset servers. I think it would be good to have servers that everything is always openly contested and other servers that have lockout timers on raids to lessen the competition. Perhaps making both groups happy.
Also love the ideas of Arena areas and fishing competitions. A guild I belonged to back in the day used to do guild group PvP events in The Arena off of Lake Rathe. Split all that showed up into two raids and went at it. Like 2 captains that picked their teams. Was fun but yeah, that zone was always empty.
Fun topic. I think too often we think about competition as "kill the other guy" or in terms of things like spawn racing, etc. But the truth is, there is such a thing as friendly competition.
In Vanguard, Shadowfire routinely ran serverwide competitive events on the Xeth server. We called the event "Xeth Faire". Here's how it worked:
- We spent a couple of months building up a big pool of prizes for the event. High end crafted stuff (including ships and house "kits"), raid drops, etc. Other guilds that we had good relations with would help us out with donations to our prize pool.
- We scheduled the event to happen on a weekend and began advertising it 6-8 weeks ahead of time so people had plenty of notice.
- The event itself was typically about 8 hours long, with a variety of contests:
* Races (different variations - sometimes just a straight out foot race, sometimes a relay race, etc)
* Fashion contests
* RP competitions (usually some kind of murder mystery event where players broke into teams and roleplayed with 'witnesses" to solve the mystery)
* Lotteries where we'd just raffle off prizes directly
* Dueling tournaments
* We'd always end every event with a ship race
The events were a huge hit. We do plan on reprising the events in Terminus once we get our guild up and running.
But the point of me posting this? The game didn't directly provide *any* of the contests we ran. Everything we did used functionality that was already in the game to support adventuring.
So if you ask me what I'd like to see to enable emergent gameplay and social competitions, here's my answer:
1) Venues - we need arenas, coliseums, places for people to gather in large groups for whatever game we can come up with.
2) Social support - cosmetic clothing, emotes, interactive furniture, speakable languages, and other tools that players can use to roleplay, tell stories, or just to try and look good.
3) Support from game systems so that we can make contests out of things. For example, if you fish up a lake bass, somewhere in the description of that lake bass it should say how big the lake bass is. That way you can compare it to other people's catches. Duelling support. A /stopwatch command. That kind of stuff.
4) Minigames like cardgames and stuff come in at the bottom. Those are icing on the cake. We'll use them, but do the other stuff first :)
One final fun thing to leave you all with:
In EVE Online, Shadowfire lived in a wormhole. For fun, we'd seal up our wormhole, and fit out a bunch of Tech 1 frigates (that anyone could fly) with a tractor beam and a really basic loadout that 99% of players could use effectively. Then, we'd set up two goalposts about 100km apart, drop a container in the middle of them, break into teams, and play "canball". Think of it like football, in spaceships, with lasers. Usually we'd award some cash to the winning team.
I don't think we can create that level of a competition in Terminus (maybe a gnome corpse for the "ball"?), but it would be fun to try ;)
I'd love to see something like an arean for pvp. I'm not a fan of full on pvp but in an areana styled setting I would love to see that happen. Maybe occasionally have a tournament where the top pvp'ers on the server can compete for grand prizes and bragging rights!
Would also love to see pve variations in the an areana setting, developers stacking impossible odds against parties! Imagine a well flushed out areana where the top players recieve fame and wealth due to their work to be the best!
I have been thinking about the idea of competition in MMO's quite a bit lately. The original purpose of this thread was to try and get some dialogue going on how competition can be engrained into the world of Terminus without contributing to there being "too much competition" for resources. There will always be a degree of competition for resources in an open-world game and it's a foregone conclusion that players have mixed feelings about how that affects their gameplay experience. I think the idea of competition in MMO worlds could be expanded a bit. I am the kind of player that enjoys competition and I think it's really unfortunate that my playstyle can lead to frustration for those who do not. I think the idea of "progression blocking" is basically a by-product of players who are competitive in nature who use competition as a sort of "emergent gameplay" tactic that can affect change into the world.
I strongly believe that the community as a whole would benefit if the idea of competition was implemented into the game tactfully. Rather than pitting players of different styles against each other where some will use "content" as a way to fulfill their desires at the expense of others, why not create events that are designed to purposely facilitate competition? Rather than players going out of their way to create their own forms of competition and disrupting the experience of others, they could spend some of their time in an environment that is catered to their tastes. I'm not saying that this would solve every problem, but I really do believe that truly competitive players would rather spend a portion of their time competing against those who share similar values, and think it makes sense to encourage this type of behavior in ways that can alleviate some of the "crossfire" that some of the non-competitive players have been known to endure.
I think the Bartle study is a great way to peer into the minds of those who enjoy the idea of a fantasy world being a home away from home. I would like to get away from the mentality that different playstyles must simply "co-exist" and make the best of whatever is available. I think all players should have opportunities to thrive in their own element, but it's important to consider the consequences of what this means in an open free world where certain elements are under-served. I think the painpoint here is only made worse when you tie in progression -- there will always be those who want to be the first to reach level cap, take down a boss, complete quest lines, or make discoveries. There is also the idea of exclusivity -- the more rare or sought after something is, the more likely you are to see competitive players wanting to get involved. This can lead to a mindset of "Winning vs Losing" for some, while others are just trying to have a good time.
I think tournaments, gauntlets, and arenas should all exist in the world of Terminus. Some could be designed around racing while others are made more for endurance. Others could be based on creativity. Some of these could exist in the game world itself while others could be player driven, but in order for the latter to be successful it's important that players have the tools to make it happen, and environments that are designed to accommodate them. I am particularly interested in a "Coliseum" type setting that could incorporate forms of both PVE and PVP competition. Again, this isn't going to completely eliminate competition for resources in the game world, but I know there are plenty of players who would spend quite a bit of time in an area like this. I don't want this post to be misconstrued as begging for feature creep -- I just want to hear the thoughts of others, particularly players who enjoy competition.
1) If there were fishing tournaments, would you participate?
2) If there was an arena for controlled PVP, would you participate?
3) If there was a coliseum that allowed players to pay a fee to face off against endless waves of monsters until they die, would you participate?
4) If there was a competition for best decorated house, would you participate?
5) If there was an easter egg hunt, would you participate?
6) If there were card game tournaments, would you participate? (Poker, Triple Triad)
7) What other kinds of competition would you like to see?
1) If there were fishing tournaments, would you participate?
I would certainly enjoy this, but the prize pool would have to be worth my time.
2) If there was an arena for controlled PVP, would you participate?
Eh, maybe.
3) If there was a coliseum that allowed players to pay a fee to face off against endless waves of monsters they die, would you participate?
Probably, depending on the prize pool.
4) If there was a competition for best decorated house, would you participate?
Nah.
5) If there was an easter egg hunt, would you participate?
Absolutely, but call it a dragon egg hunt. :P
6) If there were card game tournaments, would you participate? (Poker, Triple Triad)
Probably not.
7) What other kinds of competition would you like to see?
I like the easter egg hunt idea. Another idea along these lines would be a GM event where chests are placed in random zones in random areas. Every time someone opens a chest, it appears in a new area in that zone. Or maybe start with 5 in each participating zone, and of those 5, once their opened, only 4 produce a new spawn. Of those 4, only 3 produce a new spawn. And so on until the last chest is opened, and maybe make that one contain the best prize(s)? An event like that would be pretty fun.
Another idea would be to have high level raid NPCs (and perhaps include lower level NPCs in lower level zones) invade several (let's say, 5) random zones, very similar to the event held on P99 when Velious went live. These mobs can drop crystals or seals or something, and they also give faction when killed. Maybe have two different faction types. Guilds could work together to farm this faction and these seals. After the event, a number of NPC merchants for each faction will spawn. Merchant access is based on a player's faction, and the greater your faction the more access you have to NPCs that offer more prestigious items, which require crystals or seals or whatever to purchase the items. When a certain amount of people (say, 50-100?) hit max faction, the event will begin to conclude (at which time the merchants will spawn, and stay spawned for a day or two). Also include some low-percent random item drops from the invaders?
Haven't thought much about how the above would be affected by max faction players buying things for other players. Maybe make these items or the crystals / seals No Drop? Or the purchased items No Drop? Anyhoo, just an idea.
Good points. Without providing a full context of each situation I suppose it may be difficult to give an accurate response. The rewards are obviously a major consideration. Easter (Dragon) egg hunts could either be a ton of fun or a wash depending on available tools. I would love to play in poker tournaments but believe a card game that is embedded into the lore of the game (that players can progress in) would be a lot more fun. I have never spent a ton of time on decorating my house although I really did like the system that EQ2 and Wildstar used. If there are enough customization options I could see myself having some fun with it. Another thing to consider is how much fun could be had "earning" those customization options. Some could be gated behind faction, others through alternate currencies or even just be really rare drops. I think I would enjoy fishing tournaments especially if you could tag your catch and create rulesets with bait/lure/time restrictions. Some of these things could even be blended together ... for example, the prize pool for winning a fishing tournament or easter egg hunt could be faction, alternate currency, or some sort of prestigious or utility based item. Win a house item from the fishing tournament or a really cool fishing rod from the easter egg hunt.
As far as card games, I did think it was pretty interesting how WoW introduce that fair periodically (Darkmoon Faire?). I think Pantheon did something like this (but better) it could be fun. One thing I recall is collecting cards then turning them in for prizes.
It would be fun to collect different tiers of cards from fighting monsters. Once you have a full set of a particular tier, you could turn that set in for a randomized prize--its quality being determined by the tier of the set. One way to do this would be to have certain card sets drop in particular dungeons. Those card sets could be turned in fro a random prize that can drop in that dungeon. Same could be done in raid zones.
The above would only be available for a limited time, of course. And the fair could return periodically (every 4-6 months?).
While actually playing games with the cards you find (or buy from exclusive merchants?) is an interesting concept--and I'm not opposed to it--I'm not sure I would care to participate.
oneADseven said:1) If there were fishing tournaments, would you participate? YES
2) If there was an arena for controlled PVP, would you participate? YES
3) If there was a coliseum that allowed players to pay a fee to face off against endless waves of monsters they die, would you participate? YES
4) If there was a competition for best decorated house, would you participate? NOT LIKELY BUT MAYBE
5) If there was an easter egg hunt, would you participate? YES
6) If there were card game tournaments, would you participate? (Poker, Triple Triad) MAYBE NOT LIKELY
7) What other kinds of competition would you like to see?
Other competitions i would like to see are Obstacle Courses! Tournament dungeon (again would be nice if the layout, traps and monsters change after each event)! Maze run (ideally the maze would change after each event)!
Did you ever play FF8? They had a game called Triple Triad which was a lot of fun. To be honest, the card game itself was pretty basic ... it was still fun, but it was the "collecting" that I remember enjoying the most. Every time you visited a new city there would be NPC's who would have increasingly more powerful decks to play against. I have heard that FFXIV implemented the same game into the MMO experience. I just browsed through the explanation of it on their main site and one major difference I can see is that you "collect" new cards by playing the card game against new NPC's and beating them. From what I can remember in FF8, you actually acquired the cards by killing things in the game. Any time you beat a major boss or esper (or whatever they were called in that version) you would get their card.
Cynwulf said:Other competitions i would like to see are Obstacle Courses! Tournament dungeon (again would be nice if the layout, traps and monsters change after each event)! Maze run (ideally the maze would change after each event)!
Yeah I like that idea a lot too. Makes me think of the "Player Run Dungeons & Regions" feature listed on "The Pantheon Difference" page. Would love to hear more about the plan for that feature because I think it would serve as a great tool for a lot of the stuff discussed in this thread. I could definitely see the community pulling together to form some friendly competitions related to combat, mazes, puzzles, etc. One of the cool things about player driven events is that you can come up with all kinds of really neat rewards. Could offer to help someone finish their epic quest ... full set of twink gear, mounds of gold, all kinds of stuff!
I think if they put enough functionality into the game, then guilds could easily do their own events. I did several arena events in EQ with the freeport arena with 3 allianced guilds comming together once a month and then having a pc breaking mosh pit of pvp. I get implemented compeition should be a thing, but I am looking forward to how much actual people will host fun stuff. If this is suppose to be a viberant world with a lot of freedom and more player driven than npc, then I think it will be up to the players to produce a lot of fun competitions.
Watemper said:I think if they put enough functionality into the game, then guilds could easily do their own events. I did several arena events in EQ with the freeport arena with 3 allianced guilds comming together once a month and then having a pc breaking mosh pit of pvp. I get implemented compeition should be a thing, but I am looking forward to how much actual people will host fun stuff. If this is suppose to be a viberant world with a lot of freedom and more player driven than npc, then I think it will be up to the players to produce a lot of fun competitions.
100% agreed. I think it would be cool to give players a little control over certain "theme-park" tools and then have a big enough sandbox for players to mess around and play with them. I wouldn't mind seeing some server side events that are perhaps controlled by GM's or even scheduled monthly tournaments with things like fishing or card games. The player driven stuff is really great for the community and could be used as an outlet to allow players to work together, or against each other (in the spirit of fun of course) without having to always be themed around combat or resource consumption.