Iksar said:I'd prefer mentoring to scale players down to have the average stats of a player of the level scaled to regardless of what is equipped. I really like that players who outlevel friends/guild members will still have the option to play together, but I don't want to see it where mentors are more preferred groupmates than someone of appropriate level to the content trying to level. Honestly I'd like to see them even be a bit lower than average so there is just that much more incentive to branch out and meet/play with new players.
+1 This! I think the most important thing is ensuring this is the case.. keep a tight rein on mentors power and dont let the system trivialise content, as Iksar mentioned even take it to the point that the mentor is a great addition to the group, but... a "true level" player geared well should be able to out perform a mentor and therefor from a min max perspective a non mentor becomes a better option, and although we all want the mentor system to work i would still think VR's preference is that we would want to try and choose LFG people at our true level before sending a lvl 50 a tell asking if he can help fill a needed spot in a group because he can solo half of the dungeon anyways.
A Mentor is not their to flex his muscles, nor are they there to make content easier than it would be for a normal group, the mentor option should be there to help people fill spaces, keep friends close when levels are too far apart and to keep the game as inclusive as possible while keeping it as treacherous as possible and not making the mistake of allowing an easy mode option (ie: Traditional Over-Powered Mentoring)
To the OP absolutely we should be able to have multi mentors in group, and it is as simple as the same concept to each of those mentors should apply!
I could not agree more with Iksar and Hokanu.
The mentor system should not give a group any advantage other than the possible added expertise and knowledge of the person sitting in the chair behind the character.
If that's the case, then multiple mentors in a group shouldn't be any different than the same number of players who are naturally of that level.
Good answers above, I agree that mentoring should not equal powerleveling for the low level guys.
How should mentoring work anyway? Will you have a command "/mentor lvl" that you can use as you like (outside combat, maybe with further restrictions)? I could see this as potentially more prone to abuse, you could for example set your level so that everyone in the group gets exp but you are still higher than the group's average level.
Or should it just be a simple "/mentor" command that you can only use when grouped, and it will lower your level to that of the group's lowest level (or the group's average level?)? I think this would be the safest way. This would however prevent a group of high levels to go back to a lower level and mentor down to experience that content at the intended level, they'd need a true low level character then.
Of course mentoring could also work so that it puts the player to the average level intended for the current zone (but with the expected range of levels in each zone, this might be difficult).
Sarim said:Good answers above, I agree that mentoring should not equal powerleveling for the low level guys.
How should mentoring work anyway? Will you have a command "/mentor lvl" that you can use as you like (outside combat, maybe with further restrictions)? I could see this as potentially more prone to abuse, you could for example set your level so that everyone in the group gets exp but you are still higher than the group's average level.
Or should it just be a simple "/mentor" command that you can only use when grouped, and it will lower your level to that of the group's lowest level (or the group's average level?)? I think this would be the safest way. This would however prevent a group of high levels to go back to a lower level and mentor down to experience that content at the intended level, they'd need a true low level character then.
Of course mentoring could also work so that it puts the player to the average level intended for the current zone (but with the expected range of levels in each zone, this might be difficult).
Mentoring should be a group only thing. When you join a group too low for your character, you get a notice asking if you would like to mentor and be leveled to XX?
There should also be a cool down timer on returning to your real level when you leave the group, to avoid using it as a way to have an unfair advantage.
How about this for a mechanic.
You turn on or off mentor mode at your classes trainer i.e. you are volunteering to train lower ranked players much like a higher belted martial artist will occasionally take over class for the master or teach a small group within class.
While you are in mentor mode your level becomes the average of the non mentor levels in the group. You gain mentor exp that is used to upgrade abilities, after all teaching others is the best way to truly master a technique. You can only switch out of mentor mode by returning to the same trainer or by dying, on death you have the choice to come back as a mentor or your max level. Death penalties while in mentor mode subtract from your mentor exp not your main exp. All class/race combinations have a "mentor" build at all levels up to say 45 which you transform into regardless of what your current gear is. That gear is reasonably good for the level but not exceptional so as not to over balance organic leveling but without soaking up drops from those leveling, helping them level faster.
It is possible that the exp you gain in mentor mode only unlock extra abilities to use in mentor mode and not in leveling/endgame mode.
Thought purging again,
Trasak
I hardly even seeing this being used, you could literally be max level and be with your friends outside of the party and help them kill things easier without mentoring, granted you won't be in their grp, but you'll still be with them and talking up a storm bout whatever you want to talk about, so honestly just becuae of this i have to say no to the mentoring system becuase i see it hardly being used and a waste of time when they could do the same thing at their current level.
Riahuf22 said:I hardly even seeing this being used, you could literally be max level and be with your friends outside of the party and help them kill things easier without mentoring, granted you won't be in their grp, but you'll still be with them and talking up a storm bout whatever you want to talk about, so honestly just becuae of this i have to say no to the mentoring system becuase i see it hardly being used and a waste of time when they could do the same thing at their current level.
that would fall under power-leveling. mentoring would be more about enjoying the content with the lower players and helping them learn how to play the game better. If your PLing them, often they are missig out on the educational side of leveling.
Riahuf22 said:I hardly even seeing this being used, you could literally be max level and be with your friends outside of the party and help them kill things easier without mentoring, granted you won't be in their grp, but you'll still be with them and talking up a storm bout whatever you want to talk about, so honestly just becuae of this i have to say no to the mentoring system becuase i see it hardly being used and a waste of time when they could do the same thing at their current level.
Unless they make it so that's not possible without considerable loss to XP rates. Personally I want them to make an effort to make the mentor system a good one to the benefit of the community. Give veterans an incentive to help out new players in an environment where difficulty remains as you'd expect numerically.
Fulton said:Riahuf22 said:I hardly even seeing this being used, you could literally be max level and be with your friends outside of the party and help them kill things easier without mentoring, granted you won't be in their grp, but you'll still be with them and talking up a storm bout whatever you want to talk about, so honestly just becuae of this i have to say no to the mentoring system becuase i see it hardly being used and a waste of time when they could do the same thing at their current level.
that would fall under power-leveling. mentoring would be more about enjoying the content with the lower players and helping them learn how to play the game better. If your PLing them, often they are missig out on the educational side of leveling.
You can call it what you want, but i don't see a ton of people "lowering" themselves to grp with low level players when they can stay the same and have a bigger impact to the group, the whole mentoring idea has a nice ring to it and everything but ultimately i just don't see it being used alot, and a waste of a ton of time and money to try to put in.
Menubrea said:Riahuf22 said:I hardly even seeing this being used, you could literally be max level and be with your friends outside of the party and help them kill things easier without mentoring, granted you won't be in their grp, but you'll still be with them and talking up a storm bout whatever you want to talk about, so honestly just becuae of this i have to say no to the mentoring system becuase i see it hardly being used and a waste of time when they could do the same thing at their current level.
Unless they make it so that's not possible without considerable loss to XP rates. Personally I want them to make an effort to make the mentor system a good one to the benefit of the community. Give veterans an incentive to help out new players in an environment where difficulty remains as you'd expect numerically.
it's going to be hard to prevent on a group oriented game unless if they have a tag system where if it is tagged people not with them or in thier grp cant land spells on that target, but i would hate this becuase it would be to easy to abuse this system.
Riahuf22 said:Fulton said:Riahuf22 said:I hardly even seeing this being used, you could literally be max level and be with your friends outside of the party and help them kill things easier without mentoring, granted you won't be in their grp, but you'll still be with them and talking up a storm bout whatever you want to talk about, so honestly just becuae of this i have to say no to the mentoring system becuase i see it hardly being used and a waste of time when they could do the same thing at their current level.
that would fall under power-leveling. mentoring would be more about enjoying the content with the lower players and helping them learn how to play the game better. If your PLing them, often they are missig out on the educational side of leveling.
You can call it what you want, but i don't see a ton of people "lowering" themselves to grp with low level players when they can stay the same and have a bigger impact to the group, the whole mentoring idea has a nice ring to it and everything but ultimately i just don't see it being used alot, and a waste of a ton of time and money to try to put in.
I'm not sure what MMO's you've been playing, but I can't think of any that had a good mentoring system, and that mentoring system wasn't utilized. I, for one, would often make us of it.
If they follow the EQ model, or the model of most other MMO's out there, grouping with lower level players when you yourself are at max will completely negate experience gains in that group.
It has a nice ring to it because it's been used, often, and utilized, often.
Riahuf22 said:I hardly even seeing this being used, you could literally be max level and be with your friends outside of the party and help them kill things easier without mentoring, granted you won't be in their grp, but you'll still be with them and talking up a storm bout whatever you want to talk about, so honestly just becuae of this i have to say no to the mentoring system becuase i see it hardly being used and a waste of time when they could do the same thing at their current level.
Personally I really hope that VR thoroughly squashes any tools to power level. Power leveling is a huge tool for real life cash farmers and a product provided by them.
From the very beginning I hope:
1. The game is single box only
2. Experience rewarded by the mob is dropped to the lowest amount that anyone on the agro list would receive, if you are too far above or to far below mob level then the mob rewards 0 experience
3. If you are not on the agro list then you do not get any exp (would need some way to flag support characters who don’t happen to need to heal, buff or CC but are otherwise participating)
4. Buffs and high powered items are scaled down based on the players actual level.
All of these things will do far more to making your level mean something than hell levels, harsh death penalties, or exponential experience curves ever will.
Riahuf22 said:I hardly even seeing this being used, you could literally be max level and be with your friends outside of the party and help them kill things easier without mentoring, granted you won't be in their grp, but you'll still be with them and talking up a storm bout whatever you want to talk about, so honestly just becuae of this i have to say no to the mentoring system becuase i see it hardly being used and a waste of time when they could do the same thing at their current level.
I think there might be more to it than face value.
We know they are designing game mechanics where content becomes unavailable once you reach a certain lvl or power lvl ie:mobs "run away" (despawn) or bring friends if you are to high of a level or have to many people for the encounter.
What if the solution is simply to delevel yourself so that content becomes available now that you are the appropriate level range? While not exactly the mentor system, it relates because of the deleveling mechanic. Even if, like you mention, higher lvl players would rather powerlevel a lower lvl player from outside the group...the delevel mechanic might still be incredibly useful.
Wandidar said:I have to say, I did the whole "mentor down" thing in games like EQ2... I (personally) more enjoyed the selfless helping I did for lower levels in EQ, where I couldn't mentor down.
Intriguing. Why did you prefer one to the other exactly? Could you explain more please?
philo said:Wandidar said:I have to say, I did the whole "mentor down" thing in games like EQ2... I (personally) more enjoyed the selfless helping I did for lower levels in EQ, where I couldn't mentor down.
Intriguing. Why did you prefer one to the other exactly? Could you explain more please?
I second that request to explain more.
I'm confused by your term "selfless". I don't think mentoring should give the mentor any perks or experience - rather, just a way to group with lower level players without trivializing content.
If, as a lvl 50 character, I take time out of my game to group with a level 10 fella in a level appropriate dungeon while getting no experience or perks that benefit me, that to me is the very definition of selfless.
From time to time I would spend an evening with low level friends, or guildies, or even people I just happened to be running by on my way to somewhere else. I couldn't group with them, because the math didn't work... their level * 1.5 was still lower (often much lower) than my level. So I would spend an entire evening pulling for them (I'd use my agro reducing spell which would got me on the agro table but did no damage), buffing them, healing them with my pathetic ranger heals, etc...
At the end of the evening, I gained exactly zero experience, got exactly zero loot, zero platinum, etc... Not only didn't I expect to get any of that, I didn't want to.
When you mentor, you still get SOMETHING. You typically gain exp for example.
That's not to say your objective for mentoring is to gain anything, just that by the nature of it, you typically do. Spending some hours with people you can't group with because they are too low... well, game wise, you get nothing. On the other hand, it feels good to do. You are helping people and they appreciate it... so maybe it's not TOTALLY selfless either, because that "feel good" thing was, well, enjoyable... and, in it's own way, motivation to do it again.
Sure thing!
Here's another similar (but not the same) example... Good old Dorn B'Dynn took my head more than a few times. There were evenings when I'd spend a little time in the zone keeping him perma-dead (or, in other zones, other mobs like Grimfeather). Anyway, I'd kill Dorn and then do this: /yell DORN BE DEAD!!!
It was enjoyable knowing that for a little time, you were making the dangerous world of Norrath just a little safer for other folks.
kristov said: I don't think there should be a limit. If someone wants to play with their friends, and a game system gets in the way of that community interaction then that game system is flawed.
Double edged sword I think.
By enabling friends to play together, you are at the same time being detrimental to the chances of meeting new friends.