So, I know Aradune has stated "Pantheon will always be an item-centric and 'ability important' game. "
Fine by that, I think thats what a lot of us are looking forward to. We like the fight, we like the recognition and we like to stand in the town center and let others inspect us.
But first, let us talk about mobs and the gear they drop. If a Skeleton drops a plate chest that has +100 HP, +13 Str, +13 Wis, I honestly hope those stats were given to that mob while I was fighting him. I know in the past (speaking of EQ) we could see that a mob was wielding a weapon, but were the stats or abilities of that weapon given to that mob during the fight? I hope this done. Gear a mob drops is gear they were wearing and not only that, but the stats of that gear assists the mob in their fight against the antagonists.
Following along thsoe lines, when does the item centricicy start? I'm hoping I'm a horribly geared noob at least until mid thirties. I want the best armor a warrior of 26 seasons to be wearing is a "Dirty Cow Hide +1 to posion resist". Granted we'll have crafters out there vying to sell their wares and putting 1001 and peices of gear on the market, but honestly, I still hope it's useless. Well, not useless, but more lore centric of a low level/mid level adventurer.
Kittik said:But first, let us talk about mobs and the gear they drop. If a Skeleton drops a plate chest that has +100 HP, +13 Str, +13 Wis, I honestly hope those stats were given to that mob while I was fighting him. I know in the past (speaking of EQ) we could see that a mob was wielding a weapon, but were the stats or abilities of that weapon given to that mob during the fight? I hope this done. Gear a mob drops is gear they were wearing and not only that, but the stats of that gear assists the mob in their fight against the antagonists.
There are a number of threads about this kind of thing. As I recall the plan is for this to be the case, where (many) mobs drop the weapon they are holding on death and for the stats of the item(s) they have to affect them. That said I don't think most players will notice the small difference that those stats give to the enemy, save for weapons with procs or items that give them haste (which EverQuest also did).
I'm a bit mixed on this situation. On one hand, yes if the mob is using said sword or said shield I'd want them to be given the effects of such an item. That said, in a lot of scenarios it just really doesn't make a lot of sense. You kill a big massive mob and it drops a breastplate your size. How the heck is he supposed to have worn it? In general I tend to assume what a mob drops is essentially what you would find in the room after you killed him and searched the immediate area.
As for crafting and how high level stuff is kept out of low level hands, I'd much rather see level requirements/skill requirements placed on items and scale them down based upon what lvl/skill they actually have. Lets face it a warrior that barely can swing a sword doesn't likely have a chance to actually use it effectively. The best sword in the game would likely do little more for them than the worst. Same with armor and other items. So ultimately their might be the best crafted armor in the game on the market thats 20x better than your "Dirty Cow Hide", ultimately you wouldn't be able to use it because you aren't skilled enough to even put it on properly or move around in it.
That said, and I know this is a pipe dream, when it comes to loot. I'd much rather have actual immediately equipable equipment drop infrequently but on the rare occation it does it be something truely special. Then instead of equiping yourself directly from what your fallen enemies leave behind, let the mobs drop pieces and parts of things that crafters can make into your shiny new weapon or armor. Its much more lore friendly IMO since equipment, especially armor that was captured essentially was reworked and cleaned for their new masters to fit properly. I always did have a problem with the idea that high level established adventurers would immediately strip and don armor from a nasty/dirty looking named skeleton they just killed.
Upgrades should be infrequent and something to get excited about. Magical equipment should be rare until higher level and something to get really excited about. Perhaps with some visible sign to impress you and your friends i.e. that +1 longsword (to use D&D terminology) actually *glows* ((gasps)).
Crafting should definitely let you improve your gear over what you get from drops or normal quest rewards. LOTRO got it right in this area, though they got many other parts of their crafting system ...less right. An armorsmith should be able to make armor for a low level adventurer that isn't magical but that is of definitely higher quality than the cowhide, poorly fitting, ripped and quite smelly jacket the goblin was wearing. And most of us will readily agree that if you get a level one quest to kill three rabid raccoons none of them should have a high quality plate mail set of gloves stuffed up its nether regions.
dorotea said:Perhaps with some visible sign to impress you and your friends i.e. that +1 longsword (to use D&D terminology) actually *glows* ((gasps)).
Always thought it would be neat of your avatar him/herself grew slightly as they leveled. A level 1 Human Warrior is visually smaller than a level 50 Human Warrior.
Kittik said:So, I know Aradune has stated "Pantheon will always be an item-centric and 'ability important' game. "
Fine by that, I think thats what a lot of us are looking forward to. We like the fight, we like the recognition and we like to stand in the town center and let others inspect us.
But first, let us talk about mobs and the gear they drop. If a Skeleton drops a plate chest that has +100 HP, +13 Str, +13 Wis, I honestly hope those stats were given to that mob while I was fighting him. I know in the past (speaking of EQ) we could see that a mob was wielding a weapon, but were the stats or abilities of that weapon given to that mob during the fight? I hope this done. Gear a mob drops is gear they were wearing and not only that, but the stats of that gear assists the mob in their fight against the antagonists.
Following along thsoe lines, when does the item centricicy start? I'm hoping I'm a horribly geared noob at least until mid thirties. I want the best armor a warrior of 26 seasons to be wearing is a "Dirty Cow Hide +1 to posion resist". Granted we'll have crafters out there vying to sell their wares and putting 1001 and peices of gear on the market, but honestly, I still hope it's useless. Well, not useless, but more lore centric of a low level/mid level adventurer.
I would prefer to see a world where there are awesome items in all ranges, similar to how FFXI did it. You would see max level players camping Leaping Lizzy for a chance to get her level 10 boots because they were basically BiS for several classes at that low level range. Granted, I'd like to see much more "situational" BiS, but overall, I hope to see really deep itemization. When players roll through on Progeny, after having learned the world and accumulated enough income to splurge on high-end low-level items, they should be noticably more powerful than a fresh low level player. Progression is extremely important and I hope to see it become an important factor sooner than later. If you make players wait until 30+ to get good gear, it's going to invalidate most of the content prior to 30. That's not a good thing at all. All level ranges should be important and all zones should have rare and highly sought after mobs/drops.
If you want to make all content relevant, then there needs to be a reason why someone would spend 200 plat on a pair of level 10 boots. They are doing it because they want to be the most bad ass level 10 monk around and actually have the funds to make it happen. Not only that, but being on that level 10 monk should actually feel important to them. Not as a twink that they level to 17 and focus only on content from that range and below forever, but as a "new main." I know I have mentioned FFXI and it's sub-class system a lot on several different threads but it's crazy how important having a strong replay value for the game truly is.
I want to see a thriving economy for all level ranges ... something where a level 10 could get lucky and get that super rare spawn/drop and sell it to a high level player that is getting ready to roll progeny for a massive profit. I've been saying it for awhile and I'll say it again ... progeny will probably end up being the most highly debated/important feature for Pantheon. Getting it right is critical for the long-term success of this game. I have seen it mentioned that progeny might get scrapped if the current plan for it doesen't work out. That would be extremely disappointing to me and I would hope that the system could be tweaked or modified based on the ideas/feedback from those who test it before scrapping it altogether if that scenario ended up unfolding. As far as mobs inheriting the stats of the gear they have on their person, I think it's been mentioned that they will indeed do that. I'm pretty happy about that decision, even if blobs can't wear breastplates and all that jazz. Mobs having drops that they might not necessarily be able to equip has been a part of every MMO or RPG that I have ever played. It's just one of those things that needs to exist and doesen't need to be justified with reason or realism.
Yes, progression is important. But there is also how a game feels and a game should convery a sense of dread, especially at low levels. I remember being a level 10 monk and not being able to hurt undead and, asking around, I heard tell that if I wore "magic" gloves, my fists might hurt the undead. Where could I get such magic gloves? The living frogloks in Guk often carry them. And I was off to Guk to get Mesh Gloves that had no bonuses but were marked as Magic and lo and behold, I could now damage undead! This was a major milestone for me and I still remember making this achievement fondly.
No internet sites telling me where to get it, no guarantee it was going to work, and no stat bonuses or anything, but that was worth getting. Later I just wanted something with a few points of health regen. Progression does NOT have to be uber at lower levels to be progression.
The greater the span of progression for each level range, the more satisfying/fulfilling they can be. I think it would be cool if a level 10 monk, with the right connections and assets, were able to acquire not only a pair of magic gloves, but several other pieces (or maybe abilities (Rites of Passage!)) that would be beneficial for fighting undead and a variety of other foes. The more diverse the loot pool is, the more "situational gear" there can be. Granted, there would also have to be a large enough pool of weaknesses, acclimation effects, mob types, etc to justify any piece of gear being situational in the first place ... but it can definitely add fun and flavor to the game. I want content to be fun at all levels and I think having various forms of progression are a great way to make it happen.
Kittik said:But a level 10 monk isn't important. He's not going to do, or be able to do anything and in 37 mins he'll be level 13 and looking for a different group.
If that monk is lvl 13 with in 37 minutes (assume this is not 5 years down the road with twink gear and PL'ing) then this is not the game many of us have signed up to play!
That being sad I hope that gear is a slow progression. I loved how in EQ if you got a decent item, say teh boot off the dwarven guy in Unrest Basement at 20'ish, You where probably wearing those same boots 3 montsh later at lvl 45 and in LGuk. One of the downfalls of WoW IMO is that gear progression happens to fast and you dont feel connected to your gear. This makes it so that you dont value your upgrades and often times have so many that what does it matter one upgrade over another.
I agree Dreconic, with the exception of the boots only being desirable because there weren't many alternatives. For instance, Dwarven Work Boots have a stat that is next to worthless (Dexterity). I hope in Pantheon that itemization is more well thought out and that we aren't stuck with an objectively bad item due to a lack of options.
If you were a rog, war or monk dex was very good, it made your weapons proc more often early on, then when they re did their stats it added to defensive stats (Specially heroic dex as it adds to avoidance). But you are right the main reason the Dwarven Work Boots were so good is because there was not much else to get or anything else with a half decent drop rate. But that is also what makes those boots/items so much more worthwhile when you do get one!
Kittik said:But a level 10 monk isn't important. He's not going to do, or be able to do anything and in 37 mins he'll be level 13 and looking for a different group.
I don't really understand this comment. Why do you think it will take only 37 minutes to level from 10 to 13?
P.s. Dreconic, I'm pretty certain +dex adds to hit accuracy and combat effects (combat skills like parry/block, and weapon proc rate), and +agi adds to avoidance and strikethrough.
Because in EQ2, I can go from 1 to 13 in 20 mins. No assistance.
In WoW I can do 1 to 13 in 30 mins. No assistance.
In EQ I can go 1 to 13 in an hour. Created a toon a few days ago just to see. No assistance.
In BDO I can go 1 to 13 in about an hour.
Need I continue? No Pantheon isn't those games, but it's also not not those games. It's an MMO, it's based on levels, and if it takes someone 3 hours to go from 1 to 2 (like another thread is indicating) you will very rapidly turn your player base away.
As mentioned above, as long as you're not completely inept, people are going to level at a moderate pace. 10-13 may take 2 hours, highly doubtful low levels would take much longer than that. But still, as I'm relating to this thread, a monk at level 10 won't matter, the devs know this, they're not going to craft raid bosses for a level 10 monk, they know in 37 mins that level 10 monk will no longer exsist. It would be a waste of resources to worry about what level 10's have to do, give them the ladder to get to level 11, 12, 13. No one at level 10 wants to stay at level 10. No one is thinking, "Man, I hope I can find the right group for this raid of level 10 mobs."
Gnog said:I don't really understand this comment. Why do you think it will take only 37 minutes to level from 10 to 13?
P.s. Dreconic, I'm pretty certain +dex adds to hit accuracy and combat effects (combat skills like parry/block, and weapon proc rate), and +agi adds to avoidance and strikethrough.
You're thinking of Heroic stats. Agi influences avoidance but not a lot, heroic agility has a more potent effect and affects more things.
I guess your point still stands though.
oneADseven said:If you want to make all content relevant, then there needs to be a reason why someone would spend 200 plat on a pair of level 10 boots. They are doing it because they want to be the most bad ass level 10 monk around and actually have the funds to make it happen. Not only that, but being on that level 10 monk should actually feel important to them. Not as a twink that they level to 17 and focus only on content from that range and below forever, but as a "new main." I know I have mentioned FFXI and it's sub-class system a lot on several different threads but it's crazy how important having a strong replay value for the game truly is.
I want to see a thriving economy for all level ranges ... something where a level 10 could get lucky and get that super rare spawn/drop and sell it to a high level player that is getting ready to roll progeny for a massive profit.
In the current proposed system I don't think this is a realistic expectation unless itemization is very flawed and higher level drops are not better. Maybe for something like a trinket/ring/earring with a unique effect. I'd hate to play where at level 10 I got boots that I would be wearing for the next 30-40 levels, since I rather enjoyed the old slow but steady transition from gear with just AC to slowly finding bits and pieces with some limited + stats. Adding such items to low-mid level areas also makes it much much more likely (in this instance, guaranteed) that high level players take over camps from lower level players.
I think that it is far healthier for the game having high level players who are approaching/are ready for progeny to have to either buy or group in high level dungeons to get any pieces they want to give to their newbie. In a game with twinking (and as far as we know no item level requirements) handing down some boots from a level 40+ dungeon will/should always be the way to go.
Kittik said:In EQ I can go 1 to 13 in an hour. Created a toon a few days ago just to see. No assistance.
Are you talking about modern EQ? Because I can guarantee there is no way you could do that unassisted in classic EQ/P1999.
@Iksar:
I know higher level gear can be worn by low levels, but I also thought I saw that effects or other enhancements on the gear wouldn't be available until you were the proper level to wear it. If that's the case, it's still very possible to create fun/flavorful loot for all level ranges. If wearing high level gear at low levels is always going to be the best option (or even most of the time) then that will create an "end-game" atmosphere where clearly only the max level content would be worth farming. My opinion is that there should definitely be low level gear that is really awesome, so awesome that it's better to equip it rather than any higher level piece that scales down. As far as how long the item is ideal, I'm not sure where you got the impression that the boots would be good until level 40 or 50. It didn't really work like that. They "may" have been good until level 25-30 but you would outgrow them after that. And it's not like people could acquire full sets of stuff like this ... there would be a few really awesome pieces for tanks, a few for casters, a few for melees, etc. The item was so good that basically it was leaps and bounds better than anything else in that range, other than maybe a few select pieces for other equipment slots. If you managed to get all of them on a single character, you would be a powerhouse. It was great for the economy. As far as high level players taking over camps of low level players ... I think it's great if a level 10 area has something that a level 50 would camp. You counter this by making sure that there is plenty of higher-max level content for them to choose from and prioritize, but if someone really wants to farm a level 10 pair of boots at max level ... I think it's better for the game that they be able to. You just have to make sure that the mobs are super rare, and somewhat unpredictable. I never bothered farming Leapy Lizzy because I could make money more safely and consistently by doing max level content ... but if I ever passed through her area, I would always check to see if she was up.