I did a search on the topic of endgame, and the only relevant thread that came up was from way back in 2015. There has been a big leap in development since then, so I thought it should be OK to create a new discussion. Very briefly, I'm wondering how VR plans to keep players who've exhausted available content logging in and playing regularly.
By way of context, I'll point out that many MMOs do this in one of two ways: by adding repeatable quests or chores ("dailies"); or by making the chance to obtain the best gear very low, thus extending the "grind". I absolutely despise the first, as it keeps you logging in daily to do the same thing every day for the sole reason that there is usually some carrot put in place that you don't want to miss out. As for the second, and while I don't advocate getting the best gear fast and easy, there is a point where this too becomes repetitive, boring and a chore rather than a good gaming experience.
I know Pantheon will have raids, and these can provide some incentive to keep logging in for the social experience and the challenge. But as I've noted, unless there are continuous expansions coming out, there will come a time when we'll be asking ourselves if we really want to do some raid yet again.
I have a question and a suggestion regarding endgame content. The question is: how do VR plan to keep players engaged when they've cleared all of the content? The suggestion is twofold: have developer (or even player) run events, nothimg too complex so that they can happen relatively frequently and be different every time; and maybe introduce some competitive factor such as raid or PvP leaderboards, providing incentives for players and guilds to try continually to step up their game, even for "old" content.
If the world is dangerous enough and the content is difficult enough.
If the penalty for death is high.
If there's a deep mystery unfolding.
If there was horizontal progression at max level.
...stuff like this could really keep me around for a long time.
I'd rather not see things like PvP and Raid leaderboards... These break my immersion in some ways.
Just having a living, breathing world that doesn't feel so "gamey" would be a nice refreshing change of pace from the direction things have been going in the MMO landscape.
Thanks,
Kiz~
Been playing MMOs since the launch of EQ in 1999 and I could not care less about the "End game". I am hoping (and they have pretty much said as much) that this is not an "End game" kind of game. The first time I hear "the game doesnt start till max level" Im out.
I think Kiz is right though, give me a world and not just a game and I will continue to log in for years to come. I love the low end game just as much as the high end
Endgame?
What is endgame anyway. That place where you race to get to first and skip the enjoyment of getting there? I personally do not believe there is an appropriate endgame in most mmorpg.
I have never gotten to a point where the game flashes a screen saying "CONGRATULATIONS, YOU HAVE DONE EVERYTHING INGAME POSSIBLE SO THERE IS NOTHING FOR YOU HERE NOW"
I will not be the first to get to max level. That is a fact. But if i do get there I am certain there are places and experiences that I either overlooked or missed.
So my next step would be to play another race/class and see if I can experience those places and revisit places that I have been to but in a different "flavor". Also I am sure there are places and things I would like to do again with my main character.
So the "endgame for me is the day VR puts a stop to PROTF. Then I will know there is an endgame. I will also be a very sad and unhappy Druid.
Just keep on playing and get in all the raids and groups you can. A little experience in combat with boss mobs will make your leadership worth a lot to the people who come behind you. You will be respected and sought after to help the many slower progressing characters ingame.
Angrykiz said:If the world is dangerous enough and the content is difficult enough.
If the penalty for death is high.
If there's a deep mystery unfolding.
If there was horizontal progression at max level.
...stuff like this could really keep me around for a long time.
I'd rather not see things like PvP and Raid leaderboards... These break my immersion in some ways.
Just having a living, breathing world that doesn't feel so "gamey" would be a nice refreshing change of pace from the direction things have been going in the MMO landscape.
Thanks,
Kiz~
bruh you speaking to my soul lol
>Been playing MMOs since the launch of EQ in 1999 and I could not care less about the "End game". I am hoping (and they have pretty much said as much) that this is not an "End game" kind of game<
This. I will create new characters. I will try all the races and all the classes. I will try different areas and different ways to approach the areas. I will harvest and craft. A lot.
The more ways there are to go through the world the longer I will play. A SWTOR type game where you pretty well *must* do one area then another then another in a specific order isn't what I want even if done very well - and SWTOR did do things very well other than crafting and things to do at maximum level - best single player MMO ever.
I will not stick with one character and spend months or years trying to maximize every ability and every piece of gear. Some people do that - quite a few actually - but I am an altoholic.
I think this is the thread you're looking for: https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/5098/end-game-discussion-raiding-and-alternatives/view/page/1
But VR's view on "endgame" (or lack thereof) hasn't really changed since 2015. You won't be able to "clear all content," because raiding isn't the only worthwhile thing to do. There'll ALWAYS be more crafting, progeny, etc. to advance.
You may also be interested in this clip: 00:41:32 End game grouping and raiding
@Angrykiz: I agree that difficulty, an engaging story and a world that feels alive contribute to keeping players playing. That said, I tend to put many, many hours into an MMO. In my last experience I ended up clearing all the content, much of which on multiple characters. That wasn't rushing to the end - I took months to reach the first end-game challenges because I played the storyline in order and without skipping. In the end I left the game due to burn-out as well as disagreement with many of the developer's choices. While I know many people will take their time to explore all of the game, I have to assume at least some will rush it, others will eventually exhaust new content. I would like to see things in Pantheon aimed at keeping these players interested other than repeating daily quests or grinding gear.
Incidentally, what about leaderboards breaks your immersion? It wouldn't feel out of place to me in a medieval fantasy setting to have jousts and tournaments, or to praise the accomplishments of the hardiest adventurers.
@Sevens: I may not have explained clearly enough what I meant by endgame. I don't rush to it, nor do I feel that the endgame is all there is. But at a certain point players may have simply gone through all the content Pantheon has at that time and start to get bored. I have felt this burn-out before. I feel there should be mechanisms in place to prevent it. A player taking a break or quitting is a loss not just for VR, but for the community.
@Isaya: see above regarding what I meant by endgame. The reason behind my post was not to defend some elitist, race to the end gameplay and demand that end-gamers be catered to preferentially. It came out of concern about players eventually finding themselves bored with the game and leaving - temporarily OR permanently. One thing I try to keep in mind is that not everyone plays the same way. Certain playstyles shouldn't be dismissed just because they're not how you play yourself. I don't support trying to please everyone at the expense of the game's central tenets, but I do appreciate the ability to sustain diverse playstyles.
Personally, I love raids for endgame. But I also like to go around and make groups with people to find special items that I like and want. When I have kitted out a character, I often like to make a new one to check out other parts of the world that I didn't see the first time around. I love the idea of progress servers, and I definitely don't mind a server that has content for 2-3 years and then a new server where everything starts over. New server economy, new guilds, new friends, fewer twink items around (not that I don't like twinking. I think twinking can be as much a fun part of a game when you've already leveled one or two characters, but a new start can also be fun). So I'm definitely not opposed to a "seasonal" system, where new servers start up with classic content and unlock content little after little.
Bazgrim said:I think this is the thread you're looking for: https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/5098/end-game-discussion-raiding-and-alternatives/view/page/1
But VR's view on "endgame" (or lack thereof) hasn't really changed since 2015. You won't be able to "clear all content," because raiding isn't the only worthwhile thing to do. There'll ALWAYS be more crafting, progeny, etc. to advance.
You may also be interested in this clip: 00:41:32 End game grouping and raiding
Thank you, Baz!
The link Bazgrim posted is actually the main discussion point for this topic and I will need to close this one and direct people over to it so we can keep the information and discussion consolidated. Also, we answered this in our detailed FAQ which specifically states:
1.6 How do you plan to keep players interested without the hardcore grind of older MMOs? Will Pantheon be as hardcore as some older MMOs?
Keeping players interested and playing a long time, whether in one session or spread out over days, involves creating compelling gameplay. Player rewards, levelling, earning new abilities, and acquiring more powerful items at a reasonable rate are some ways to make your game sticky. Add in that grouping with others will be encouraged and rewarded and that people will be making new friends in-game and you have a situation where your comrades need you to log in with them in order to advance. Most people who want to be part of a team, to be a team player, respond well to this pressure.
As for how ‘hardcore’ Pantheon will be, we’ve said it wouldn't be as grindy, and the type of grind we were referring to involves tedious repetition. But that doesn't mean Pantheon won't be difficult, or involved, or require time invested in order to advance -- in fact, virtually all MUDs and MMOs are built around time invested as the primary advancement mechanism. Pantheon will both challenge and entertain you.