A lot of gamers automatically assume they have the right to defeat all content in a game, but wouldn't it be more interesting to encounter a dungeon that was 30 levels deep, and no group has ever beaten? Wouldn't something like that add to the lore of the game, the immersion, the experience that this place wasn't just catering to your leveling needs, but there were some places that were truly a mystery, or were truly unconquerable, or near it?
Experiencing something like that would make my mind fly with questions, seeking answers in lore, or trying to figure out possible ways to defeat something, or if it 1 shot me, stay the hell away. It teaches the player to respect the environment, and that this isn't just some sandbox for levelling, but a living breathing world with maybe unsolvable mysteries or unconquerable dangers
I think creating an immersive world (and one suiting the core tenets of the game) is far more important for release, but if we live long and prosper and get to an expansion, a huge dungeon is not at all a bad theme for this group-focused game.
I spent the years in Dark Ages of Camelot that many people here spent in EQ (obviously starting after 1999 - in 1999 I was still focusing on single player games). Many DAOC veterans will remember one dungeon more than any other part of the game. Darkness Falls had multiple entrances, multiple levels, many bosses and was the thematic pvp dungeon (other than on the one pve server). Factions fought to control it and there were rewards for doing so. It was a BIG place.
Different in many ways from the dungeon you envision - DAOC was a pvp focused game other than the one cooperative server - but a similar concept given its different focus.
I totally like the idea of mobs and areas that are just beyond what players can defeat at the current time.
These areas could bridge the gap and press right up against where new expansions could be designed.
It's hard to justify using development resources on content that won't be directly utilized but if it's just slightly out of reach people will still go there and try I'd think.
Thanks,
Kiz~
Hi All,
I toatllay agree Ghost, the challange and risk is what gets the endorphins flowing and it makes the game truly exciting.
As stated by the developers on the About Us section of the website; "At Visionary Realms, we believe that the best of MMORPG design is yet to come. We understand how healthy challenge in a game promotes teamwork, often blooming into profound relationships and enduring memories. We focus on these poignant elements of design and aim to provide our players with environments conducive to building reputations, friendships and alliances—as well as rivalries and notoriety. Visionary Realms resumes where past MMORPGs left off with these elements, and is excited to see the genre re-emerge."
In EQ1 I had a great time buildig relationships while suffering through defeat durring some the more difficult parts of the game. As with most things in life, we tend to have greater appreciate for rewards that are dearly earned.
dorotea said:I think creating an immersive world (and one suiting the core tenets of the game) is far more important for release, but if we live long and prosper and get to an expansion, a huge dungeon is not at all a bad theme for this group-focused game.
I spent the years in Dark Ages of Camelot that many people here spent in EQ (obviously starting after 1999 - in 1999 I was still focusing on single player games). Many DAOC veterans will remember one dungeon more than any other part of the game. Darkness Falls had multiple entrances, multiple levels, many bosses and was the thematic pvp dungeon (other than on the one pve server). Factions fought to control it and there were rewards for doing so. It was a BIG place.
Different in many ways from the dungeon you envision - DAOC was a pvp focused game other than the one cooperative server - but a similar concept given its different focus.
Doesn't have to be a 30 floor dungeon, could be a small island you see in the distance off the coast of Terminus, or a little bandit camp out in the middle of nowhere in the forest. Idea is to mplement a bit of non-linear challenge. Something that goes beyond what you expect. There can be normal content, there can be more difficult content, and then there can be real true mysterious content, or incredible puzzling or difficult content that allows the world to to be the master, and you the temporary visitor. Gaining a level and then being able to defeast a monster is fun, but you expect it. I think Terminus should aim for adding a little bit of the unexpected.
Angrykiz said:I totally like the idea of mobs and areas that are just beyond what players can defeat at the current time.
These areas could bridge the gap and press right up against where new expansions could be designed.
It's hard to justify using development resources on content that won't be directly utilized but if it's just slightly out of reach people will still go there and try I'd think.
Thanks,
Kiz~
Maybe not beatable or solvable even for the highest player, maybe they are missing something on their gear they they need to equip...or maybe they didn't stand on the pressure plates that opens a hidden wall to a weapon you need to actually do damage to the monster. Or maybe you need to call on more people in the zone to help you attack it, or maybe the monster is really just too powerful and it is unbeatable.
You might have people complain and say this content is too hard...well maybe they weren't meant to beat it..Maybe no one can beat it..maybe that's just the way it is.
Wrathian said:Hi All,
I toatllay agree Ghost, the challange and risk is what gets the endorphins flowing and it makes the game truly exciting.
As stated by the developers on the About Us section of the website; "At Visionary Realms, we believe that the best of MMORPG design is yet to come. We understand how healthy challenge in a game promotes teamwork, often blooming into profound relationships and enduring memories. We focus on these poignant elements of design and aim to provide our players with environments conducive to building reputations, friendships and alliances—as well as rivalries and notoriety. Visionary Realms resumes where past MMORPGs left off with these elements, and is excited to see the genre re-emerge."
In EQ1 I had a great time buildig relationships while suffering through defeat durring some the more difficult parts of the game. As with most things in life, we tend to have greater appreciate for rewards that are dearly earned.
Yes I agree with all you said and I hope they put their tenets to practice. I'm not requesting the whole game be designed the way I am proposing, just tiny pockets of Terminus that give it a some intrigue
ghost7 said:A lot of gamers automatically assume they have the right to defeat all content in a game, but wouldn't it be more interesting to encounter a dungeon that was 30 levels deep, and no group has ever beaten? Wouldn't something like that add to the lore of the game, the immersion, the experience that this place wasn't just catering to your leveling needs, but there were some places that were truly a mystery, or were truly unconquerable, or near it?
Experiencing something like that would make my mind fly with questions, seeking answers in lore, or trying to figure out possible ways to defeat something, or if it 1 shot me, stay the hell away. It teaches the player to respect the environment, and that this isn't just some sandbox for levelling, but a living breathing world with maybe unsolvable mysteries or unconquerable dangers
I can see having such content present if, in the long term view, it actually content introduced before it is actually meant to be consumed. This would be like having Kunark content present at EQ1 release but without the level cap going to 60.
This topic reminds me of the very old school Bards Tale line of games. I remember in Bards Tale 2 there was a dungeun (can't remember the name) that absolutely no magic worked in and no light at all.
At the time my group was way under level for it but I would go in over and over again and if I got the right 1 monster I could get some crazy nice item. Granted it was a no xp loss game and would save and restore over and over again but I found it really fun to plow in and see what happened over and over again.
Hehe, I played that on a Commode 64 and swapping 5.25 disks in and out to go into whichever dungeun. Guess that kinda dates me...
Procedural dungeons have been around since Rogue. No reason an "eternal labyrinth" couldn't be a dungeon in Pantheon, with every version different, per group or even one floor unique, per group. Doesn't mean all the content has to be like this, but it can be done. The scripts are in the Unity store. Heck, you can make your own entire roguelike in Python if you really want to see how it's done. :)
That some mobs were impossible or nigh impossible was part of what always captivated me about EQ. I for one hope there are not only mobs that are not defeated, but quests that long remain mysteries, and rare spawns that no one can figure out how to trigger.
Danger and mystery are very powerful, and drive people to keep playing.
Dullahan said:That some mobs were impossible or nigh impossible was part of what always captivated me about EQ. I for one hope there are not only mobs that are not defeated, but quests that long remain mysteries, and rare spawns that no one can figure out how to trigger.
Danger and mystery are very powerful, and drive people to keep playing.
Precisely my hopes as well.
Look, here is someone still out there investigating Everquest mysteries. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=knbfiDzYdbQ
One of my favorite things to do in EQ on my ranger was to find a place with mobs I could solo. Often times my rotation would have to be perfect, and sometimes just getting to the camp was super dangerous. I loved it, and getting raid gear for me was all about becoming a more effective soloist. The danger element made grinding mobs for AAs as intense as being on a raid. Since WoW danger has just been totally bleached out of the genre, which is one of the reasons I'm so excited for this game. Danger adds dimension to the world.
"....that absolutely no magic worked in and no light at all."
Yet another incredible way to make a dungeon/area different, absolutely pitch black and a torch, lightstone, lantern, etc. mandatory. And even then maybe 50 foot seeing. The group creeping forward slowly, carefully.....
The mind wobbles.
ghost7 said:A lot of gamers automatically assume they have the right to defeat all content in a game, but wouldn't it be more interesting to encounter a dungeon that was 30 levels deep, and no group has ever beaten? Wouldn't something like that add to the lore of the game, the immersion, the experience that this place wasn't just catering to your leveling needs, but there were some places that were truly a mystery, or were truly unconquerable, or near it?
Experiencing something like that would make my mind fly with questions, seeking answers in lore, or trying to figure out possible ways to defeat something, or if it 1 shot me, stay the hell away. It teaches the player to respect the environment, and that this isn't just some sandbox for levelling, but a living breathing world with maybe unsolvable mysteries or unconquerable dangers
Not a good idea ! Some people are ready for the Ultimate sacrifice (IRL).
Nephretiti said:Disks? You had DISKS?!?!?! Ever play a game on a TRS80 and swap out cassette tapes? Of course there was that one time when that guy added COLORED beads to our abacus - changed gaming forever!
Hah, 4 track casette in order to be able to draw circles or ellipses is neat nostalgia, Thx for that Neph.
If the devs are to design content that makes max level players question whether or not they can even beat the content then I feel like they would have to go back to an EQ style 'con' system. Most current MMOs, even VG, tell you everything there is to know about the mob when you click on it; exactly what level it is, what type of monster it is, whether you can solo it or not, etc.
You can't have the level cap at 50 and then tell a group of max level players that the monster is level 80 and requires a group because then they are going to know that content is most likely not beatable. But if all that shows up is that the monster cons red then all the group knows is that for their current level they will at least need a group to defeat the monster...IF they are even able to defeat that monster.
NoobieDoo said:If the devs are to design content that makes max level players question whether or not they can even beat the content then I feel like they would have to go back to an EQ style 'con' system. Most current MMOs, even VG, tell you everything there is to know about the mob when you click on it; exactly what level it is, what type of monster it is, whether you can solo it or not, etc.
You can't have the level cap at 50 and then tell a group of max level players that the monster is level 80 and requires a group because then they are going to know that content is most likely not beatable. But if all that shows up is that the monster cons red then all the group knows is that for their current level they will at least need a group to defeat the monster...IF they are even able to defeat that monster.
I look at the "consider" system as dynamic. Frankly, a level 50 group is so far from level 80 that they almost can't comprehend how outmatched they are. So maybe a hilarious death is in order.
NoobieDoo said:If the devs are to design content that makes max level players question whether or not they can even beat the content then I feel like they would have to go back to an EQ style 'con' system. Most current MMOs, even VG, tell you everything there is to know about the mob when you click on it; exactly what level it is, what type of monster it is, whether you can solo it or not, etc.
You can't have the level cap at 50 and then tell a group of max level players that the monster is level 80 and requires a group because then they are going to know that content is most likely not beatable. But if all that shows up is that the monster cons red then all the group knows is that for their current level they will at least need a group to defeat the monster...IF they are even able to defeat that monster.
If you watch the game play video they have exactly that...an EQ1 style con system which I hope they keep into launch.