Forums » Crafting

Scribe crafting - Maps

    • 13 posts
    May 3, 2017 4:54 AM PDT

    How about letting the scribes create maps? Last stream they said they wont include maps or a minimap, but how about letting scribes create maps and sell them on the local auction houses?

    The better the maps people make, the more money they could be able to sell them for.


    It would be sort of a mini game for scribes and net them a decent amount of money in return.


    This post was edited by thaitanic at May 3, 2017 7:32 AM PDT
    • 1541 posts
    May 3, 2017 7:09 AM PDT

    thaitanic said:

    How about letting the scribes create maps? Last stream they said they wont include maps or a minimap, but how about letting scribes creates maps and sell them on the local auction houses?

    The better the maps people make, the more money they could be able to sell them for.

    It would be sort of a mini game for scribes and net them a decent amount of money in return.

    This has been discussed before and I think it is a good idea. The important thing to add if such a system was put in place would be some degree of randomness. You don't want a scribe to be able to create a 100% perfect therefore a buyer of the map should be able to choose which map they buy. Maybe one map is better at showing points of interest while another map is better at showing mob locations. That would add a kind of mini game to the system where you had to chosoe the specific map you needed for a zone for a certain task. This would ultimately lead to people owning multiple maps per zone for different tasks and that would give the scribes a useful income source since they would be making maps for different purposes.

    • 13 posts
    May 3, 2017 7:44 AM PDT

    I had several ideas on how it could be implemented.

    1) Hand drawing. Scribes creates a blank piece of paper and then walks around drawing it by hand - This is the one I like the most because higher quality maps could net you more money.

    2) Each zone has a ranger type character (think national park stuff) with X amount of quests you need to do before the map is completed.

    3) Survey. They go around in zones and use a survey skill and its automatically put on the map - Kinda meh.

    • 1541 posts
    May 3, 2017 7:57 AM PDT

    thaitanic said:

    I had several ideas on how it could be implemented.

    1) Hand drawing. Scribes creates a blank piece of paper and then walks around drawing it by hand - This is the one I like the most because higher quality maps could net you more money.

    2) Each zone has a ranger type character (think national park stuff) with X amount of quests you need to do before the map is completed.

    3) Survey. They go around in zones and use a survey skill and its automatically put on the map - Kinda meh.

    As long as it is near impossible to make a 100% accurate map then I'll be happy. If they allow scribes to make 100% accurate maps they might as well just add maps into the base game and be done with it. Even if you have a map made by a scribe I'd still want to feel that uncertainty about whether the map was accurate in that particular place so you would still need to be careful when moving through the zone.

    • 4245 posts
    May 3, 2017 8:14 AM PDT

    Most of the threads about cartography/map making have been archived, but there are still a couple that you might find interesting:

    https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/2962/mapping-mini-maps-quest-arrows/view/page/1

    https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/2241/a-cartography-skill

    • 295 posts
    May 3, 2017 1:58 PM PDT

    personally I am of the opinion that if a map is player created that player would either have had first had experience with the whole zone or be using an already established map and copying it like most atlases do now in the real world. 

    • 10 posts
    May 4, 2017 3:01 PM PDT

    thanks for reading my post on youtube and putting it on here

     

    • 449 posts
    May 9, 2017 2:06 AM PDT

    Cromulent said:

    thaitanic said:

    How about letting the scribes create maps? Last stream they said they wont include maps or a minimap, but how about letting scribes creates maps and sell them on the local auction houses?

    The better the maps people make, the more money they could be able to sell them for.

    It would be sort of a mini game for scribes and net them a decent amount of money in return.

    This has been discussed before and I think it is a good idea. The important thing to add if such a system was put in place would be some degree of randomness. You don't want a scribe to be able to create a 100% perfect therefore a buyer of the map should be able to choose which map they buy. Maybe one map is better at showing points of interest while another map is better at showing mob locations. That would add a kind of mini game to the system where you had to chosoe the specific map you needed for a zone for a certain task. This would ultimately lead to people owning multiple maps per zone for different tasks and that would give the scribes a useful income source since they would be making maps for different purposes.

    I'd go one further. I'd make a map that comes with a secret location. Kind of like a treasure map. The location can only be seen by the holder of the map and their group, and can only be used once, after which the location is consumed and vanishes forever. What this is is a twist on the old Vanguard AES system, which allows the group to have a dungeon experience or maybe a golden mob trail to a boss mob spawn in a dungeon via a map. They can be random in their type. If you're lucky, perhaps it's a very lucrative dungeon as far as treasure goes, or perhaps it's one more aimed at XP and lore.

    Just a thought.

    • 1541 posts
    May 9, 2017 3:34 AM PDT

    Kratuk said:

    Cromulent said:

    thaitanic said:

    How about letting the scribes create maps? Last stream they said they wont include maps or a minimap, but how about letting scribes creates maps and sell them on the local auction houses?

    The better the maps people make, the more money they could be able to sell them for.

    It would be sort of a mini game for scribes and net them a decent amount of money in return.

    This has been discussed before and I think it is a good idea. The important thing to add if such a system was put in place would be some degree of randomness. You don't want a scribe to be able to create a 100% perfect therefore a buyer of the map should be able to choose which map they buy. Maybe one map is better at showing points of interest while another map is better at showing mob locations. That would add a kind of mini game to the system where you had to chosoe the specific map you needed for a zone for a certain task. This would ultimately lead to people owning multiple maps per zone for different tasks and that would give the scribes a useful income source since they would be making maps for different purposes.

    I'd go one further. I'd make a map that comes with a secret location. Kind of like a treasure map. The location can only be seen by the holder of the map and their group, and can only be used once, after which the location is consumed and vanishes forever. What this is is a twist on the old Vanguard AES system, which allows the group to have a dungeon experience or maybe a golden mob trail to a boss mob spawn in a dungeon via a map. They can be random in their type. If you're lucky, perhaps it's a very lucrative dungeon as far as treasure goes, or perhaps it's one more aimed at XP and lore.

    Just a thought.

    I like that idea. That could lead to some interesting side benefits but I'm not sure how a secret would work in each zone? Would the devs have to program a list of secrets per zone and then each map would show a random secret to the holder? If so that might significantly increase the amount of resources needed to create each zone. Maybe if there was just a random chance at getting a secret from a map rather than always having one. That would reduce the amount of work the devs had to put into creating secrets while still giving players a reason to buy new maps for the chance of that secret. It would also mean that the secrets could be bigger since there would need to fewer of them.

    Just some ideas. I do like the idea though.

    • 449 posts
    May 9, 2017 4:12 AM PDT

    Cromulent said:

    I like that idea. That could lead to some interesting side benefits but I'm not sure how a secret would work in each zone? Would the devs have to program a list of secrets per zone and then each map would show a random secret to the holder? If so that might significantly increase the amount of resources needed to create each zone. Maybe if there was just a random chance at getting a secret from a map rather than always having one. That would reduce the amount of work the devs had to put into creating secrets while still giving players a reason to buy new maps for the chance of that secret. It would also mean that the secrets could be bigger since there would need to fewer of them.

    Just some ideas. I do like the idea though.

    That could work as well. I'm not sure if you're familiar with the Advanced Encounter System they originally pitched for Vanguard or not, but it would work something like that. But where you would have needed an item, you substitute a map. There's a fun idea in there somewhere,. But yeah, it would take a bit of work so probably nothing we'll be seeing anytime soon if at all.

    • 238 posts
    May 10, 2017 3:47 AM PDT

    I just don’t get why this topic keeps coming up as something a crafter would do. I mean if you take the RolePlaying out of it, why you would need someone to make something you can just look up online in a crafting class just does not compute with me. Maybe in the first few weeks maps and stuff might be rare but months and year into the game it’s going to be a quick google search away. Why would someone starting a new character (months after release) pay someone in game for information that will 100% be free online. This is not like making a sword or food in game that changes stats; this is collecting information and trying to build a game mechanic around it.

    If this was a crafting class how would this work with 5 cartographers all doing the same thing let alone 50 or 100? If I start playing Pantheon 4 months after release how would I participate in mapping zones that are already well know? How many players can Map GFay before it becomes busy work to raise a skill and not somthing with real value.

     

    Not trying to be mean I just dont get how this seems like a great idea to so many people.


    This post was edited by Xonth at May 10, 2017 3:55 AM PDT
    • 1403 posts
    May 10, 2017 4:40 PM PDT

    If I were desiging a cartography concept I would to my best not to overcomplicate it, and probably fail.

    For instance: Items needed would be something to draw on, that is Bark, Hide, Paper/scroll/canvass, Shale, Clay tablet. Each material needs something to scrub it to make if scribable.

    Writing implements: pocket dagger, charred twig, Feather quill, fine chisel, bone stylus. ( lines up with above). Each item needs a writing agent or spell to work on the particular item.

    Method is like how you sign names with a mouse ( which I never got the knack - never looks like my normal signature). Depending on the implement and base you have. Dagger on bark would be tough but doable and lack alot of detail- and straining on the mouse, Paper and quill would be easy but way too fluid and easy to mess up with the mouse I think you get the idea.

    Of course, different items would survive different environments- with the exception for clay that would harden in a hot environment and permanently fuse whatever was written on the tablet- aso you'd have to get another.

    If a skill is attributed to it, then that would reprent how much detail you can add. For instance, a new person can only add three lines- of any size like a line at an angle from entrance leading to area marked with X, or just an arrow- general direction.

    If one got better at the skill- then a pallette of icons in the UI for scribing would show up: like rocks, trees, water, huts/houses, animal that you can click and place on the "map" up to 3 to 5 clicks and maybe you get three more lines to be able to draw.

    Only the icons of the area can be used on the areas materials so a dwarf chiseling a map on shale, will have access to icons dwarves would know like mines, ore veins, rocky outposts. Whereas an Archon would not have access to those icons. However in reading the Dwarves Map, the archon can take their charred stick and leather and approximate the information the dwarf has by copying it on to his leather- 3 lines/curves only- maybe more if skill is high enough.

    Better maps would be made by those that had faction, enough to get one or two of the natives "icons" on their map UI, and be able to transfer them to their medium of choice, so the leather map, could have the stony dwarven icons showing where a cave is- or they could just draw a cave as best they can on the leather, or with their dagger on the bark.

    The Archon tablet may show "animals" in that area, but the Skar map would show what sort of animals there are.

     

    Dwarves: Taverns, caves, Vareital ore veins, rocks

    Skar: Pits, swamps, Varietal animals/beasts, death and decay (or areas, of)

    Archon: Environmental effects, heat, cold, lava, pressure, void.

    Dark Myr: Vareital fish, directional sea currents, caves, kelp/seaweed barriers

    Halfling: Inn's, banks, fishing spots, secret doors, good forage areas.

    Half elf: Varietal trees, directional wind currents,  general reptiles, general insects.

    Ogre: fud, mor fud, iz dat fud?, try eatz. (distance to scale, star patterns/weather, slippery ice, solid ice, snow)

    Human: Vareital beings, cities, roads/ paths/bridges, shops/merchants.

    Gnome: Lay lines (lines of power throughout the world of Terminus), shrines, libraries, books, temples.

         

    If I forgot any, let me know.

     

     

     

     

     


    This post was edited by Manouk at May 10, 2017 4:43 PM PDT
    • 37 posts
    May 19, 2017 12:32 PM PDT

    I'd say no, as eventually, maps will be so commonplace and available that you might as well have an in-game map. I'd leave maps out of the game entirely.

    • 319 posts
    June 4, 2017 6:04 PM PDT

    I wont say that I've never used in-game maps, but I do enjoy the old memorizing my way around the landscape.

    There is something about remembering that the route that takes me from here to there means that I need to turn left at the big black rock, and then straight on til I see the odd house standing out on the hillside, then left again beyond the third tall pine, follow the cow path up the hill, dodge the three headed beast that lurks in the thicket, and then I've arrived. That kind of thing tends to stick with you and brings more immersion for me personally.

    • 277 posts
    June 21, 2018 9:21 PM PDT

    There is a good chance that the game will not have maps at all. Which is a good take on things. If one reads between the lines when they talk about what the primary intentions are of this game, you could read that you'll either get information about the game through playing yourself or from players. For me that reads as: join a groupmember and let him show you a way/location you didn't know before. And from there on you again could share your ingame knowledge with other players. This will require a lot of outreach towards the ingame community and that brings it back to the Dev's intention to create this style of game. A game where players and shared experience is once again valuable and sought after. 

    When I play a game and run around for hours on end, I no longer require a map to find what I need. Even now, without any game launched I could see the routes/locations if one should ask me one. For those that do not have a good working sense of memory (no offense there please), the importance of alliances, friends and guildies will be profoundly important and a valueable resource ingame. 

    Sure it makes the game more challenging for beginning players but wasn't the point of this game to make this MMO more challenging in the first place? Not knowing your way the first few times in a region make sense, but it is not impossible to habituate to or overcome. 

    A side note: not having maps would slow players down that just want to race to endgame content and skip the actual content. I see that as a long time plus relating to playerbase quality and sense of community.

    • 502 posts
    June 30, 2018 1:21 AM PDT

    Xonth said:

    . Why would someone starting a new character (months after release) pay someone in game for information that will 100% be free online. This is not like making a sword or food in game that changes stats; this is collecting information and trying to build a game mechanic around it.

     

     

    Some time ago I also belonged to those who thought that cartographer was a nice crafting class idea but I changed my mind after having tried to see what the design specifications would be .

    Indeed after some 4-6 months, zone and dungeons maps will be easily available on Internet for free . From that follows that topographical information what is why maps are done, will loose any value very fast .

    So if one still wanted to keep cartography as a trade skill (mainly because it is a beautiful and compelling concept for a world where adventuring, travelling and exploring is the main occupation for everybody) there are only 2 ways to give it lasting value and these ways cannot be topographical information .

    - First is that the cartographer maps could be used in game . As there is an obvious difference between having to print or display maps on third party sites and only clicking on a button and having the map on the game screen , there is lasting value for in game maps . However VR said that they don't want in game maps . They didn't specifically say that they didn't want in game crafted maps but if they say so then this way is closed .

    - Second is to include in a map informations which are not topography informations . These non topographic informations would necessarily be valid for only a short time (days or a few weeks) . Indeed if they were permanent, they'd finish on Internet maps too . This could be information about treasures, secret entrances , times of spawn of rare mobs , places for hidden lore/rare spells etc  which open only for a short time and then close forever or untill another cartographer succeeds to find them again when he's doing his cartography job . First I found this idea quite compelling but then I realized that it was nothing else than a refinement of VR's concept for perception . So basically this idea is already taken care of through another game mechanism .

    Hence there is little value in cartography as a trade skill even if a fantasy world without cartographers looses much of its charm and it saddens me .

    • 33 posts
    August 15, 2018 7:17 AM PDT

    So i could see how some people might really want maps in-game, however due to a Wiki being made one way or another i forsee this method being useless. unless it is taken by this approach.

    1: 1 map only covers 1 zone, and takes it's own inventory slot per map, unless you are a scribe and have a think called an Atlas, that could be a 32 slot Map Only Storage.

    2: maps would have to be explored by the creator of the map. as the "park ranger" thing goes for quests. there is no way you'd get them to make an NPC and quest chain for every single zone based on a single craft skill. so the "hand drawn" approach of the map filling in (minecraft style) as long as it is in the scribes inventory being the best course of action. this way they can't rapidly flood the market with maps and it'd more then likely wind up being a "Service request", like a certain player asking for maps from A to B and paying 10 plat per map. also i'd say let the player be able to set a Pin at thier current location if you right click the map. you cannot place Ranged Pins, that way you have to have actually been there yourself to make a note of your surroundings. after-all, you're not a cartographer, you're an adventurer.

    3: make certain zones "un-mapable" such as labryniths and raid zones.

     

    i still forsee this not being added due to in-game mapping not being a thing, and if anyone here was from the EQ1 early days, you'd actually go online on EQAtlas.com and print out 3 ring binders full of maps. i have probably 4 3 inch binders of all the maps for friends to reference as needed when they came over for LAN parties. though after 1-3 times, that map became trivial.

    • 33 posts
    August 15, 2018 7:20 AM PDT

    Manouk said:

    "If I were desiging a cartography concept I would to my best not to overcomplicate it, and probably fail."

    you recommend keeping it simple so that the concept is more readily adopted, but then you opted for the most complicated and time consuming approach to the implimentation of anyone else in this thread...

    • 241 posts
    August 15, 2018 7:50 AM PDT

    I don't feel as though there should be a cartography system in place at the games release. Possibly frather down the road as the game begins to age a little.

    Do you remember that feeling of being scared to death as you explored the world of Norrath? Never knowing what’s was around the next corner. Every step you took could bring imminent death. That fear factor is etched in so many people’s memories from release.

    Let’s allow others that weren’t there for the release of EverQuest to have that same experience that we had.


    This post was edited by Shyin at August 15, 2018 7:51 AM PDT
    • 33 posts
    August 15, 2018 8:01 AM PDT

    @Shyin, lol, i do agree about your stance on the cartography system not being in place at release, but also i'd imagine it'd be a good while before people would even be able to make maps. not just that, there are all of the other specializations that i'd imagine president more of a demand early on such as Blacksmithing, Caprentry, alchemy for poisons, and Stonemason. primarily the equipment professions, later on someone might make an alt to pick up the cartography. so that'd put this a few months out from becoming accessable. also it wouldn;t be widespread really since the maps would possibly be in high demand, and if the cartographer has been in the zone already this early in the game, so has everyone else that started and we'll all have been in those areas well before the maps are made for it. you'd also have to know what zones you are going to be going to and buying all the maps that would lead you there without a guide.

    • 1403 posts
    August 15, 2018 2:21 PM PDT

    Snoochy said:

    Manouk said:

    "If I were desiging a cartography concept I would to my best not to overcomplicate it, and probably fail."

    you recommend keeping it simple so that the concept is more readily adopted, but then you opted for the most complicated and time consuming approach to the implimentation of anyone else in this thread...

    *nod* and as I predicited, I failed! :(

    • 5 posts
    February 11, 2019 11:06 PM PST

    I like the idea of everyone getting their own blank map that, as they go out and explore, they can slowly make their own map by doing certain quest etc... in zones so that you eventually have a decent map to go on deppending on the amount of time and effort you put into travelling and exploring the world. Lets be honest, most of us will end up just looking up maps on the internet. I feel it would be a very rewarding item to take pride in and constantly want to keep up to date.

    • 7 posts
    February 18, 2019 10:37 AM PST

    I think it would be cool to be able to make your own map, maybe you'd need to buy like a base version that just shows the generic zone outline and then go out into the zone and mark down things that you see. My ideal version of this would be that you like go into a forest area and you see like this really big tree, so you open up your map and start drawing down the tree, there being a cast time for the drawing which makes it harder in dangerous areas and more of a group effort because you'll need a friend or a hired mercenary to keep you safe while you draw it. Eventually your map just becomes a series of landmarks that you've personally found. I'm not 100% sure if it should be tradeable though, but if it can be, I'd prefer it to not be copyable, instead you'd have to like unequip it from your map collection and sell it and then go back and remake it from scratch. 

    • 25 posts
    February 24, 2019 12:22 PM PST
    I like this idea. I wonder how it could work with the perception system...eventually those spots may be a google search away. Maybe you would have to reach a certain perception level to view a particular type of location