Forums » Pantheon Classes

Melee and Ranged (archery) Auto-Attack Swing Timers

    • 485 posts
    March 5, 2017 12:44 PM PST

    Do you think VR will implement an auto-attack swing timer that can be interrupted by other melee actions, and make ranged weapons only trigger the attack when you’re not moving?

    Melee

    It would be amazing if VR brought back auto-attack swing timers that can be interrupted by melee abilities if the abilities are used in the middle of the “recharge” time of the auto-attack. This mechanic brings a lot of skill to melee dps, and players that are good with their swing timers can take great advantage of this.

    (For the people that don’t know what I’m talking about) Basically let’s imagine you’re a warrior and your melee swing timer is 2 seconds, you auto-attack and then you need to wait 2 seconds for the auto-attack to “recharge”, if you use a melee ability in the middle of those 2 seconds, the “recharge” timer would be reset back to 0. So to get the maximum out of your white swings you would need to use melee abilities right after an auto-attack lands. (If you’re dual wield only the main hand swing timer is taken into account)

    Ranged (archery)

    I’m not sure on this but I think VR has confirmed rangers will have the option to use a bow as a main source of damage and it will be a viable form of DPS. (correct me if I’m wrong, think I heard it in one of the streams)

     I think if archery combat is implemented exactly the same way has the melee version that I described above but with the small twist of requiring you to standstill for the arrow to launch, would result in a great combat system. If anyone played hunters in Vanilla and TBC wow they know what I’m talking about, it’s a really engaging way of create archery combat in a tab targeting mmo, and it adds a whole new level of skill to the archery combat.

    (Example how the archery combat would work) You have a bow with a 3 second auto-attack timer, you fire your arrow while standing still and then from seconds 0.1 - 2.9 of the “recharge” you can move around, but to fire the arrow, you to need to be standing still when the “recharge” timer reaches the 3rd second. If you’re not standing still when the 3rd second of “recharge” is reached you will keep you auto-attack on “hold” and it only fires when you stop moving, if you do this you “waste” auto-attacks, so trying to time your movement so you’re never in a situation where you’re “holding” an arrow is very important. Ranged abilities (if there are any) would also interrupt this “recharge” timer so you would want to try and use them right after an arrow is fired (Like the auto-attacks described above).

    • 1899 posts
    March 5, 2017 1:09 PM PST

    Not sure why you should not be able to shoot a bow while moving. Maybe an accuracy penalty at best. Archery can and should be done while moving.

    • 485 posts
    March 5, 2017 1:43 PM PST

    An accuracy penalty is another way to make movement a skillfull part of the archery combat. Never tough about it, don't know what's more difficult to implement though.

    But what's your opinion on the swing/recharge timer part of the post Beefcake?

     

    • 1692 posts
    March 5, 2017 2:06 PM PST

    In the original everquest, the auto-attack timers made a lot of sense, because there weren't a bunch of melee abilities.  But in most games nowadays that have the auto-attack for melee, it never makes sense to me.  You have an attack with your weapon that automatically goes off ever so often.  So the auto attack can swing your sword every 2 seconds, but if you use abilities they can usually be activated every second (you may have to go through different abilities with different cooldowns), but then you're back to a 2 second auto-attack?  Why does a normal sword swing take longer to do than some of these other attacks that usually have special abilities tied to them?

    Personally I think as long as you're using weapon abilities, auto-attack doesn't fire.  When you're not using weapon abilities, auto-attack does fire.  The cooldown between using any weapon abilities should be the same as auto-attack.  So if you're auto-attack goes off every 2 seconds, then when you use an ability you have a 2 second cooldown before you can use the next (at least weapon ability, perhaps other abilities ignore this such as a kick or bash).  Then weapon speed actually makes a difference, other than how often you can auto attack.  So a shortsword may be less damage, but reduces the cooldown between the use of sword abilities, while a claymore may do more damage, but increases the cooldown between weapon ability usage.


    This post was edited by kelenin at March 5, 2017 2:07 PM PST
    • 2692 posts
    March 5, 2017 8:15 PM PST

    A system like that punishes heavy weapons much more than fast weapons. Any block/dodge/parry/miss is a much bigger penalty to a slow swinger, not to mention makes them more open to missing opportunities for certain abilities. 

    • 622 posts
    March 5, 2017 11:51 PM PST

    If auto attack needs to watched manually, then it is not really "auto", isn't it?

    I agree with what was said above, in EQ, where you had only very few melee attacks, it may have made sense to interrupt auto attacks when an ability was used. In modern games where melee classes play much more actively with their abilities, this has no place anymore IMO.

    • 485 posts
    March 6, 2017 3:49 AM PST

    @kelenin

    @Sarim

    I don't know how the melee combat is going to work, but from what i saw in the streams, melee classes will indeed have alot more abilites than in EQ, but  quite alot of endurance is spent when you use those melee skills, so if you plan to just spam abilities then you're gonna run out of endurance really fast and be reduced to only auto-attacking. So I don't think you will be spaming your skills, unless you need to deal burst damage. IMO a system like this, that encourages to space out and time abilities correctly seems to make alot of sense and creates a new gameplay element.

    So if you're in a tight situation and need to do alot of burst damage you can spam the abilities and use up all your endurance, but to get the max overall dps you would need to time your ability uses correctly.

     


    This post was edited by jpedrote at March 6, 2017 4:05 AM PST
    • 485 posts
    March 6, 2017 3:57 AM PST

    @Iksar

    How so?

    Slower weapons always have larger damage penalties when they miss.

    Well i don't think you're more penalized if you miss the "window" to use abilities with a slower weapon, infact it's easier to time abilities if you have more time to prepare. If you're using a fast weapon you need to pretty much use a skill every 1.5-2 seconds, but with a slower weapon you have 3-4 seconds to prepare, so a faster gameplay with faster weapons might lead to more errors hapening because you need to use skills more often, so in the end it average out. Mistakes with slower weapons might cost you more damage, but mistakes with faster weapons will happen more often.

    • 4463 posts
    March 6, 2017 5:31 AM PST

    I have advocated for a to-hit penalty to melee auto attacks when moving. I think the same should apply to ranged attacks. There's no reason why shouldn't be able to shoot the arrow or swing your weapon and that's far too punitive. You'll have a higher chance of missing though. Furthermore, I think that it should be something that can be improved with training, items, or just as you level up. So you may have a pretty high chance of missing while on the run at low levels, but you can theoretically eventually get it to a point where the to-hit penalty is almost negligible.

    • 485 posts
    March 6, 2017 6:20 AM PST

    Bazgrim said:

    I have advocated for a to-hit penalty to melee auto attacks when moving. I think the same should apply to ranged attacks. There's no reason why shouldn't be able to shoot the arrow or swing your weapon and that's far too punitive. You'll have a higher chance of missing though. Furthermore, I think that it should be something that can be improved with training, items, or just as you level up. So you may have a pretty high chance of missing while on the run at low levels, but you can theoretically eventually get it to a point where the to-hit penalty is almost negligible.

    @Bazgrim

    Never thought about a to-hit penalty, it would be a really cool feature that emphasizes good movement, don't know how hard it is to implement, maybe it's easy, something like a hidden debuff when you're moving.

    What are your thoughs on melee skills/abilities interrupting the recharge of auto-attacks?

    • 4463 posts
    March 6, 2017 6:37 AM PST

    jpedrote said:

    Bazgrim said:

    I have advocated for a to-hit penalty to melee auto attacks when moving. I think the same should apply to ranged attacks. There's no reason why shouldn't be able to shoot the arrow or swing your weapon and that's far too punitive. You'll have a higher chance of missing though. Furthermore, I think that it should be something that can be improved with training, items, or just as you level up. So you may have a pretty high chance of missing while on the run at low levels, but you can theoretically eventually get it to a point where the to-hit penalty is almost negligible.

    @Bazgrim

    Never thought about a to-hit penalty, it would be a really cool feature that emphasizes good movement, don't know how hard it is to implement, maybe it's easy, something like a hidden debuff when you're moving.

    What are your thoughs on melee skills/abilities interrupting the recharge of auto-attacks?

    It would be very easy to implement. A hidden debuff while moving is a good way of looking at it.

    An ability that interrupts auto-attacks would only be marginally useful in my opinion and since auto attacks are on a predictable timer, interrupting them would not be that hard. If my interrupt ability is on a 10 second cooldown, then I'll just wait till the middle of a cycle to press the button and then as long as I always hit it again every 10 seconds as soon as the cooldown is up, I'm guaranteed to interrupt successfully every time. And since every auto attack deals almost the same amount of damage (and the exact amount is random), there wouldn't be an advantage to waiting to try to prevent a bigger attack. It just adds another button to mindlessly push every 10 seconds in battle and preventing one auto attack is not a huge deal. I think it's more interesting to have Silencing abilities that interrupt and/or prevent spells or other activated abilities that are much harder to predict and deal a lot more damage if you don't successfully interrupt them.


    This post was edited by Bazgrim at March 6, 2017 6:49 AM PST
    • 485 posts
    March 6, 2017 7:32 AM PST

    @Bazgrim

    I was not talking about an interrupt "interrupt" that  players can use on mobs or use on PVP.

    I'm talking about the system I proposed above, where your abilities, (i.e ; kick, backstab, shield bash, leacking wound...) interrupt your auto-swing if they are used in the middle of the "recharge" time, so you would want to use active abilities right after your melee auto-hits land.


    This post was edited by jpedrote at March 6, 2017 7:34 AM PST
    • 474 posts
    March 6, 2017 7:45 AM PST

    Wouldn't a system like this run counter to how VR is trying to build the UI? It promotes focusing on the UI and combat text rather than on the characters on the screen. I wouldn't think the animations would be a reliable enough queue to fire off abilities. I see having to time your combat this way to maximize dps as not adding anything to combat. Its not more complex, it adds no "skill" to anything. You wait for text and press a button, not a lot of skill involved.

    • 485 posts
    March 6, 2017 7:58 AM PST

    @Kellindil

    I think the animations are realiable and the best way to check your characters attacks, with practice you get the feel of your weapon and know when it's going to hit,

    Looking at the combat log will only hinder you because you can't check your surroundings. Also you can have damage numbers on screen if you're not able to learn your weapon attack speed.

    I beg to differ, this adds a ton of skill to melee combat, it makes you learn your weapon swing timer, it makes you think about wehn to use your abilities, and it creates 2 different playstyles. Burst dmg, where you use all of your endurance to spam abilities so you can deal alot of dmg in a short period of time. And a more meticulous playstyle that's used when you're doing sustained dmg and killing something fast is not a priority.

    • 474 posts
    March 6, 2017 9:31 AM PST

    jpedrote said:

    I beg to differ, this adds a ton of skill to melee combat, it makes you learn your weapon swing timer, it makes you think about wehn to use your abilities, and it creates 2 different playstyles. Burst dmg, where you use all of your endurance to spam abilities so you can deal alot of dmg in a short period of time. And a more meticulous playstyle that's used when you're doing sustained dmg and killing something fast is not a priority.

    It makes you think about when to use your abilities? You use them every time you see the numbers scroll by. Like watching for the pretty lights and arrows in DDR. You don't listen to the music, you watch the floating arrows and press a button. Same concept. I don't want to be focused on a rhythm mini game, i'd rather be playing the RPG.

    • 485 posts
    March 6, 2017 10:25 AM PST

    kellindil said:

    It makes you think about when to use your abilities? You use them every time you see the numbers scroll by. Like watching for the pretty lights and arrows in DDR. You don't listen to the music, you watch the floating arrows and press a button. Same concept. I don't want to be focused on a rhythm mini game, i'd rather be playing the RPG.

    It won't be a rhythm mini game because you don't have enough endurance regeneration to sustain that type of play for longs periods of time. If you choose to use an ablity right after every melee swing you'll be out of endurance in no time.

    So yes it makes you think when to use your abilities, it makes you think and wait a second before you press whatever you're going to press, that is of course if you want to maximize damage.

    From what i saw in the last stream you'll use an ability every couple seconds, and with the introduction of this mechanic another level of depth in gameplay will be added to melee and archery combat.

    • 474 posts
    March 6, 2017 11:30 AM PST

    Its not depth, its tedius and I say still detracts from the real game. 

    So now you want resource management, ability cool downs, global cool downs, and this "DDR-Melee"? None of this seems like adding depth. It just makes you want to watch the UI more to be "The Best".

    In my opinion it detracts from the point of the game. Interacting with the WORLD and the people around you.

     

    jpedrote said:

    It won't be a rhythm mini game because you don't have enough endurance regeneration to sustain that type of play for longs periods of time. If you choose to use an ablity right after every melee swing you'll be out of endurance in no time.

    This assumes that resources are very slow to regen or pools are small. Since we don't know how the whole combat system will work, how stats factor in, and a number of other things it's hard to make this assumption.

     

    • 485 posts
    March 6, 2017 11:43 AM PST

    kellindil said:

    Its not depth, its tedius and I say still detracts from the real game. 

    So now you want resource management, ability cool downs, global cool downs, and this "DDR-Melee"? None of this seems like adding depth. It just makes you want to watch the UI more to be "The Best".

    In my opinion it detracts from the point of the game. Interacting with the WORLD and the people around you.

    To me this adds to the overall combat depth, it gives you something to manage and look out for, it rewards good play and punishes bad play, and it creates a system that experienced players can use to get the maximum out of thier classes. I would like to ear what you consider combat depth is.

    Again you won't look at the UI because looking at the UI will hinder your awereness, if you're used to the attack timer looking at your characters animations is the best way, and you'll also learn when to expect a swing to go off, if anything it will make you pay closer atention to your character.

    It really doesn't detract from the interaction with people, this is just another combat mechanic, it won't detract from interacting with enemies or comunicating with your group. It will make it harder to play perfectly that is for sure.

    kellindil said:

    This assumes that resources are very slow to regen or pools are small. Since we don't know how the whole combat system will work, how stats factor in, and a number of other things it's hard to make this assumption.

    They've said multiple time they don't want "twitch" gameplay, so It's safe to asume that you will not be spaming abilities all the time, unless you need to do burst damage.


    This post was edited by jpedrote at March 6, 2017 11:45 AM PST
    • 2692 posts
    March 6, 2017 11:43 AM PST

    I don't see it as adding skill either, the idea that it makes you think when to use your abilities is moot. Managing endurance use is a "skill" regardless of if you have to use an ability after a swing timer or anytime. In fact I would argue that it's much more of a skill when you can blow your endurance at will based on ability cooldowns/burst, as you will need to know when to hold and when to go nuts. How would managing endurance even work if you had a slow weapon? Would you never run out? It would be incredibly boring to only be able to use 1 skill every 8 seconds because endurance.

     

    Such a system makes it barely a step above classic EQ melee, which was rather boring. Initiate auto-attack, press kick every 5 seconds, maybe a shield bash, until mob dies. I feel like being able to use your skills/combos etc at will is much more involved in managing endurance and making combat more fun for melee. 

    • 474 posts
    March 6, 2017 11:52 AM PST

    jpedrote said:

    They've said multiple time they don't want "twitch" gameplay, so It's safe to asume that you will not be spaming abilities all the time, unless you need to do burst damage.

    Spamming abilities is not twitch gaming. When they say twitch gaming they are talking about gameplay akin to Tera where its more action-y and requires rapidly reacting, twitching, to combat queues.

    It seems to me that what you suggest would actually make combat a bit more twitchy as you will be rapidly reacting to combat text so you can time your ability usage. Not exactly twitch combat, but I see it as borderline.

    I honestly would like to see a combat system more akin to what DAoC had. You "queued" an ability to fire on your next melee round. If it hit you'd see the animation for that ability, if not you'd see a normal melee swing. It kept eyes on the action on the screen. There was absolutely no reason at all to ever look at the UI during combat. Resource management could limit spam ability if done correctly. 

    Added depth could come from tactical placement of your character during combat. Some abilities might do more damage from behind, while another might add a bleed but must be performed from the target's flank. Making the placement of the character key in combat.

    I was a huge fan of DAoC's combat system, especially for archery. It made it feel more realistic.

    • 500 posts
    March 6, 2017 9:23 PM PST

    kellindil said

    I honestly would like to see a combat system more akin to what DAoC had. You "queued" an ability to fire on your next melee round. If it hit you'd see the animation for that ability, if not you'd see a normal melee swing. It kept eyes on the action on the screen. There was absolutely no reason at all to ever look at the UI during combat. Resource management could limit spam ability if done correctly. 

    I was a huge fan of DAoC's combat system, especially for archery. It made it feel more realistic.

     

    I like the sound of this alot!

    -Todd


    This post was edited by tehtawd at March 6, 2017 9:24 PM PST
    • 4463 posts
    March 7, 2017 6:14 AM PST

    jpedrote said:

    @Bazgrim

    I was not talking about an interrupt "interrupt" that  players can use on mobs or use on PVP.

    I'm talking about the system I proposed above, where your abilities, (i.e ; kick, backstab, shield bash, leacking wound...) interrupt your auto-swing if they are used in the middle of the "recharge" time, so you would want to use active abilities right after your melee auto-hits land.

    I'm sorry I misunderstood at first, but even now that I know what you mean I think my opinion is still pretty much the same - it's only a marginal improvement. I am all for differentiating between skilled and unskilled players and I don't even mind rewarding twitch action combat. But other than that, this in particular doesn't really make much sense to me. There are better ways to reward good reaction times. Thinking about realism for a second, why would I always swing my weapon after using a special ability? It feels like a mechanic just for the sake of mechanics. In my years of designing board games, the best advice I ever heard was "Don't add something to your game just because you think it would be cool; only add something if the game can't live without it." And in this case, I feel like this mechanic would mostly add complexity without enough depth. There is a difference between the two.

    • 485 posts
    March 7, 2017 10:05 AM PST

    I've reread my posts, and i can see you all think it's a convoluted combat mechanic, that's because it is, maybe it's to complex and gives to little reward, i still like it though :)

    I'm just worried that melee combat will be way to simple, if they make it similar to DaoC I would be exhilarated, DaoC has some of the most skillfull melee combat ever, with positional requirement, stances and reactive abilities.

    I think Bazgrim idea of a penalty to the hit chance when moving might be enough to make melee combat engaging, but I don't agree with making that penalty less and less significant has you level up, maybe reduce it a bit at higher levels, but don't make it obsolote at max level.

    • 4463 posts
    March 7, 2017 10:25 AM PST

    jpedrote said:

    I've reread my posts, and i can see you all think it's a convoluted combat mechanic, that's because it is, maybe it's to complex and gives to little reward, i still like it though :)

    I'm just worried that melee combat will be way to simple, if they make it similar to DaoC I would be exhilarated, DaoC has some of the most skillfull melee combat ever, with positional requirement, stances and reactive abilities.

    I think Bazgrim idea of a penalty to the hit chance when moving might be enough to make melee combat engaging, but I don't agree with making that penalty less and less significant has you level up, maybe reduce it a bit at higher levels, but don't make it obsolote at max level.

    Rest assured they are at least making a serious effort to make combat not boring. I'm not worried. Brad and the rest of VR understands the importance of keeping the player involved in combat. No knowing if it'll resemble DAoC, but I know they are shooting for something where it is much more engaging than the monotony of just watching you character attack, but also not truly twitch-based, so that it is more accessible for those that are not used to faster-paced combat.

    From the FAQ: "With Pantheon, combat will still be action-packed and require close attention, using tactics, as well as reacting to what mobs and other players may be doing. In fact, so much will be going on that you will not want to have to worry about whether you are swinging your sword or not -- you will be casting spells, assuming stances, countering or deflecting your opponent’s moves and spells, and more."

    "The player will have enough time to react to what the NPC is doing (counterspell, deflect, move out of the way, etc.). Combat is more involved and the player will need to pay attention, but it is not ‘twitch’ in the way a first-person shooter is."

    I agree that perhaps it should not be possible to make the moving to-hit penalty negligible, but there should be some way to at least mitigate it.


    This post was edited by Bazgrim at March 7, 2017 10:49 AM PST
    • 8 posts
    March 10, 2017 10:10 AM PST

    With regard to moving to-hit penalties, the following factors could/would play a big part:

    Player's hit chance

    - Weapon Skill (Sword, Axe, Mace, etc)

    - Dexterity

    - Level (higher/lower skill cap)

    - Gear (+Weapon Skill or +% hit chance) 

    Enemy's mitigation chance

    - Agility

    - Dodge chance

    - Parry chance (whether this is passive or active)

    - Ripose chance (same as Parry)

    - Level (same as for Player)

     

    With the above in consideration would play in the to-hit penalties while moving to address it's significance at any level. So in the scenario that a player is X levels higher than their target, there are a number of things in their favor for the penalty to be relatively low. And in reverse, a greater penalty when the enemy target is X levels higher. Or penalty being greater when combating VS a fighter class-type as opposed to a mage class-type.

    Maybe even to the point of there being a "specialty" skill that reduces the penalty or % chance of the penalty. Which could only be obtained via X, series of quests or gauntlet of sorts. Stopping myself there, as thats going off-topic.

    Just some ideas to keep the conversation going. All we have until we can play right? ;)