I agree with you Ainadack that citing how FD trivialized content is not necessarily applicable to a similar mechanic in Pantheon because balance can always be adjusted. It's a weaker argument, certainly.
I think the most powerful argument I can use is really just how unintuitive it is, and quite frankly how boring it is compared to more active forms of crowd control. Of course how boring it is is entirely subjective.
I love the idea of variety. Pulling was a role in EQ, wasn't always necessary but it was a plus if you had a good puller. Why people wants to eliminate variety, I don't understand. EQ was fun because we did many crazy stunts like that, it made learning a class fun and it distinguishes between people who know their classes and those who don't. Heck, Monks weren't the best puller either I remember on my SK after investing AA points on that pet back command where it comes back without spamming "back back back back" button.... you FD as SK, send a pet to aggro a monster, click on the AA Back Button and Viola! you get a single pull. That was way faster than Monk's FD pulling.
I want to see things like that in Pantheon, people miss those things in combat. I've played many MMORPGs and nothing compares of how varied and deep EQ combat mechanics were. Monk's FD pulling was one of them, and I don't see any reason why VR shouldn't redo that.
Liav said:I agree with you Ainadack that citing how FD trivialized content is not necessarily applicable to a similar mechanic in Pantheon because balance can always be adjusted. It's a weaker argument, certainly.
I think the most powerful argument I can use is really just how unintuitive it is, and quite frankly how boring it is compared to more active forms of crowd control. Of course how boring it is is entirely subjective.
While I was trying to introduce the idea that it could be balanced for argument's sake, I actually don't think it can be. If you can single pull out of a 6 pack of mobs and balance that against an enchanter who has to frantically try and mez 5 mobs and then take into consideration that even an enchanter will have some build up time before they get everything mezzed? If it's truly balanced for that job, you would be left with a husk of a character that could only pull... But that's just my opinion. I believe I'm in agreement with you the whole way, just trying to clear up the discussion.
Laura said:I love the idea of variety. Pulling was a role in EQ, wasn't always necessary but it was a plus if you had a good puller. Why people wants to eliminate variety, I don't understand. EQ was fun because we did many crazy stunts like that, it made learning a class fun and it distinguishes between people who know their classes and those who don't. Heck, Monks weren't the best puller either I remember on my SK after investing AA points on that pet back command where it comes back without spamming "back back back back" button.... you FD as SK, send a pet to aggro a monster, click on the AA Back Button and Viola! you get a single pull. That was way faster than Monk's FD pulling.
I want to see things like that in Pantheon, people miss those things in combat. I've played many MMORPGs and nothing compares of how varied and deep EQ combat mechanics were. Monk's FD pulling was one of them, and I don't see any reason why VR shouldn't redo that.
Single pulling only adds net variety to the game as long as it doesn't overpower other mechanics seeking the same goal. If shamans are given a spell that for 1 hour limits incoming damage to a maximum of 100dps, then a whole swathe of game mechanics (other healers and their abilities) are rendered obsolete. If this game has crowd control at its core in the same way that healing is at its core, then allowing any single class to single pull (unless you have some seriously heavy counter-balancing) then a whole swathe of crowd control mechanics are rendered obsolete.
Laura said:I love the idea of variety. Pulling was a role in EQ, wasn't always necessary but it was a plus if you had a good puller. Why people wants to eliminate variety, I don't understand.
That's a bit of a red herring. No one is suggesting the removal of pulling. Maybe the removal of highly abusable single pulling, specifically, but not pulling as a whole. Important distinction.
Laura said:EQ was fun because we did many crazy stunts like that, it made learning a class fun and it distinguishes between people who know their classes and those who don't. Heck, Monks weren't the best puller either I remember on my SK after investing AA points on that pet back command where it comes back without spamming "back back back back" button.... you FD as SK, send a pet to aggro a monster, click on the AA Back Button and Viola! you get a single pull. That was way faster than Monk's FD pulling.
Pet pulling is also an unintuitive emergent behavior, just like FD pulling. I personally don't like it and would prefer not to see it. It's completely outside of reasonable expectations that enemies wouldn't social just because a pet is attacking.
Laura said:I want to see things like that in Pantheon, people miss those things in combat. I've played many MMORPGs and nothing compares of how varied and deep EQ combat mechanics were. Monk's FD pulling was one of them, and I don't see any reason why VR shouldn't redo that.
I'm sure some people miss those things but maybe try to speak only for yourself. I certainly don't miss EQ's unintuitive ridiculous mechanics where being a good player is 80% having a mental encyclopedia of how to abuse various unintended mechanics. Not only would it make Pantheon look like a cheap product with piss poor QC, it's just simply not necessary to copy broken, emergent behaviors from 20 year old games to make a good game.
Laura said:I want to see things like that in Pantheon, people miss those things in combat. I've played many MMORPGs and nothing compares of how varied and deep EQ combat mechanics were. Monk's FD pulling was one of them, and I don't see any reason why VR shouldn't redo that.
That you personally don't see any reason why they shouldn't doesn't mean that they should.
Splitting was a requirement in EQ. I don't know of any guild pulling the flurry drakes and surviving if more than 3 were pulled In the raid. Different classes have different mechanics. Monks can single pull. Enchanters can aoe mez. Etc etc. that doesn't make any class obsolete or invaluable. Especially if you can't find a "desired" class to fill that group spot at the moment. So don't make it where you "need" an enchanter to do group content because that is just silly. You should be able to split mobs. my opinion only.
shasta said:Splitting was a requirement in EQ. I don't know of any guild pulling the flurry drakes and surviving if more than 3 were pulled In the raid. Different classes have different mechanics. Monks can single pull. Enchanters can aoe mez. Etc etc. that doesn't make any class obsolete or invaluable. Especially if you can't find a "desired" class to fill that group spot at the moment. So don't make it where you "need" an enchanter to do group content because that is just silly. You should be able to split mobs. my opinion only.
Right, but that's EQ. While splitting was borderline required for some content, that doesn't necessarily mean it has to be in Pantheon, nor does it mean that FD splitting should be the tool to use for it.
Pantheon isn't EQ, fortunately.
Personally I loved how the EQ community was able to come up with ideas that were out of the box. Unfortunately I doubt that will be the case in a modern day game. Even one that is offering a lot more freedom than current MMOs. It's likely we will still be pigenholed into playing a certain way unfortunately. Things like kiting, charm kiting, reverse kiting, etc. were actually quite a bit of fun because you had to startagize a bit and move around. In a group you were usually performing your one role and for casters you were often getting your mana back (not always a bad thing if you didn't want constant action).
While it's true that kiting kind of existed before EQ it wasn't quite the same and I believe it was coined in EQ as I never heard the term in Ultima Online when I played it. In Ultima Onilne terms like Player Killer were coined. The large variety of out of the box mechanics had never been seen before because there was never an MMO like EQ before it's existance.
If you build a game designed around the idea you have to group together and that group requires the following elements to succeed; tanking, healing, damage and crowd control then you discover you accidently put a skill in the game that made one of those completely worthless, what would you do?
There is absolutely no way FD should have been allowed to function in the way it did. It made the game easier and made one of the game defining roles a lot less fun in many situations.
I've no idea why people would want that feature back.
You can have FD without mob splitting, I hope it's something they've designed around properly this time.
I only dabbled with monk in EQ, I mainly stuck with druid, rogue, and necro, so my view point is mostly from VG. My experience in that game was that is was common to make raid level mobs immune to runspeed debuffs (ie snares and roots). As such, you were limited on your options and monk split pulling was one of those options. Perhaps the difference in views is I'm thinking raid pulling in my mind and others perhaps are thinking more about casual leveling. I sure don't want to trivalize content but I also dont want to not be able to raid because there isn't a chanter avail.
I trust that Pantheon will either have the mechanic in the game or they will adjust the game design so that you don't need to split pull and aren't reliant on only one class to handle things.
streeg said:I only dabbled with monk in EQ, I mainly stuck with druid, rogue, and necro, so my view point is mostly from VG. My experience in that game was that is was common to make raid level mobs immune to runspeed debuffs (ie snares and roots). As such, you were limited on your options and monk split pulling was one of those options. Perhaps the difference in views is I'm thinking raid pulling in my mind and others perhaps are thinking more about casual leveling. I sure don't want to trivalize content but I also dont want to not be able to raid because there isn't a chanter avail.
I trust that Pantheon will either have the mechanic in the game or they will adjust the game design so that you don't need to split pull and aren't reliant on only one class to handle things.
I mean you can't raid if you dont have a tank. If the game is advertising CC as one of the 4 defined roles why shouldn't that be the case?
Your right, you can't raid without a tank. But there isn't just one tank class, there are three. You can't raid without a healer but there are 3 healing classes not just one. All I was saying is that I'm only aware of one mez class which is the enchanter, so you need other classes capable of raid CCing if snare/root are not options. I'm saying that monk FD split pulling can be looked at as a type of CC
I was talking about Pantheon not EQ. Last I was aware, Bard and Necro was hoping but unlikely to even be in game at release let alone any word that they would be able to mez. Happy to concede if I'm wrong though. I admit "if" bards make it into release that I would expect them to have a mez but not so sure about necro mezzing unless its to undead only. But these are all guesses on my part and if I was going to guess then I'd say Brad's EQ had monk fd splitting (unintended) and Brad's VG had monk FD splitting (intentional) so I would expect Pantheon to also. Doesn't mean he can't take a whole new approach this time around but the trend would make me think it will be in.
Again, if there are multiple mezzing classes then I have no issues with not having monk FD splitting. Actually, if they remove it without having multiple mez classes then I still won't go nuts, there are pleanty of other classes that are interesting to play. I just enjoyed the mechanic over the years and never felt it took anything away from chanters. It was always more efficient/preferred to pull and have a chanter mez then to wait for monk to fart around splitting. It was just nice to have the alternate option in case a chanter wasn't avail.
FD was anything but a cure-all to pull single mobs forever in any scenario, It was better in certain places than others, enchanters were still extremely valuable CC.
You couldn't reliably FD pull Plane of Hate because of aggro through walls, long distance aggro and social ranges, and very tight corridors.
You also couldn't FD pull in Plane of Fear, at all really. The aggro ranges on mobs were such that you simply couldn't properly do it.
In Classic EQ, I gather that the developers expected players to clear into Vox and Naggy's lair and kill vox and naggy while also dealing with giants, FD mechanics weren't expected here, and trivialized those encounters because the giants could be dealt with before-hand. Hate and fear released later, and to counter the FD strategy the large aggro range was introduced. This made FD pulling obsolete in those zones.
Upon release of Kunark, FD pulling was once again a necessity, not because they couldn't figure out how to make it difficult, but because I believe they felt it had become a sort of class identity, and one which they didn't wish to diminish. Clearing Trakanon's Lair or Veeshan's Peak without FD would even today be considered blasphemous, and futile.
There were always plenty of raid scenarios where both FD and CC were needed, and in my humble opinion, they are one in the same.
I just don't want to see dumbed down AI, now you guys might scoff at that because EQ had the most basic AI ever, but the depth of how to manipulate that AI, and control it, was deeper than any MMORPG that has released since, simply because of FD behavior.
Liav said:streeg said:All I was saying is that I'm only aware of one mez class which is the enchanter
Yeah, in EverQuest. Not Pantheon.
Also, Bards and Necros can mez.
Both of which are not confirmed for launch.
If you eliminate single pulling, you basically force all groups to need a mez class. I like groups having more options.
Of course, certain encounters can be exceptions to the rule. Like if a boss is supposed to be pulled with his 3 minions, then they can be hard locked to always engage together. Similar to how certain mobs won't be able to be meZed.
But to remove the #1 utility function from any class, I do not think would be a good move.
I may be missing something, but I don't believe VR has released a full list of the classes, their roles, and their abilities. For all we know the Crusader could be a healer, the Warrior could be a dps, and the Summoner could be a tank pet class. Those examples were chosen specifically to be ridiculous, but so is the suggestion that in a game touted for the quaternity, that they're only planning on having an enchanter to mez and then FD pulling. That would be one heck of a thin pillar. Let's not argue for or against the presence of single pulling based on ANY presumed knowledge of other game mechanics, since overall balance of class roles is only a discussion we can have when we know about all the classes.